283. “We have 3 kids and live paycheck to paycheck. Are we screwed?”

Ramit digs into how years of impulse spending, money avoidance, and unequal financial responsibility have left a couple earning around $178,000 a year with $186,000 in debt and just $571 in savings.

Ramit Sethi talks with Michelle and Jeff, both 45, who have three children and are approaching 20 years of marriage. They’re earning more than ever, but still living paycheck to paycheck, with fixed costs consuming 87% of their take-home pay. Michelle feels responsible for making everything work, while Jeff admits that avoiding the numbers helps him avoid worrying about money and leaves her carrying the burden.

A closer look at their spending reveals a $76,000 car purchase, buy-now-pay-later spending, and more than $9,000 spent eating out reveal how their everyday decisions keep them stuck. The conversation reaches a turning point when he asks them to step away and decide whether they’re both ready to commit to change. Together, they explore the childhood experiences behind their money habits and begin building shared rules, a spending plan, and a different financial future for their family.

A special thanks to our new partners at Monarch for sponsoring this episode. Try Monarch for free today, and get 50% off your first year of Monarch’s core tier at https://monarch.com/ramit, promo code RAMIT. When you sign up with my link only, you’ll get your Monarch account customized with my exact CSP categories so you can see exactly how you’re stacking up to your plan each month. That’s https://monarch.com/ramit, promo code RAMIT.

In this episode we uncover:

• Why earning around $178,000 a year hasn’t stopped Michelle and Jeff from living paycheck to paycheck
• How Michelle became responsible for managing the money and deciding which bills could wait
• Why Jeff avoids the numbers, even while acknowledging the pressure it puts on Michelle
• What $186,000 in debt, $571 in savings, and 87% fixed costs mean for their family
• How a $76,000 car purchase left them with a roughly $1,000 monthly payment
• Why Ramit pauses the conversation and asks them to decide whether they’re ready to change
• How childhood experiences with money still shape their spending, trust, and communication
• How they spent $9,275 eating out by August, including $2,747 in a single month
• Why they agree to weekly money meetings, shared purchase rules, and a $75 monthly dining-out limit
• What their follow-ups reveal about sharing responsibility and automating savings, retirement contributions, and extra debt payments

Chapters:

(00:00:00) Introduction

(00:02:13) Earning more, still living paycheck to paycheck

(00:16:50) The purchase arguments putting pressure on Michelle

(00:32:04) Ramit asks them to step away and commit

(00:39:04) Facing their debt and high fixed costs

(00:49:08) The childhood money patterns they’re repeating

(01:05:53) Where their money is really going

(01:13:34) Building shared money rules

(01:20:18) Reworking their budget, savings, and debt plan

(01:28:51) Follow-ups

 

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Transcript:

 

[00:00:00] Michelle:

We're trying to figure out, okay, how are we going to get the kids to school? Or which bills we could

skip this month? Because I feel like sometimes we're drowning.

 

[00:00:05] Ramit:

Your fixed costs are 87%. You have very little savings. You have kids. If something happened, you all are

in big trouble. What solutions have you looked for engaged with?

 

[00:00:15] Michelle:

We've done credit cards, personal loans. We have looked at bankruptcy.

 

[00:00:20] Jeff:

My philosophy is I give her the money and she does what she needs to do with it.

 

[00:00:27] Ramit:

Does it work?

 

[00:00:27] Michelle:

No. I don't always feel like I know what I'm doing. I feel like I'm just piecing things together so we

can get to the next paycheck.

 

[00:00:32] Ramit:

Why is it you?

 

[00:00:32] Michelle:

Honestly, I don't trust Jeff to handle the money.

 

[00:00:37] Jeff:

In my own little world. I just don't look at it. If I don't ask about it, then I don't have anxiety about

it.

 

[00:00:42] Ramit:

You both came on money for couples. The only way that two of you will succeed is if the two of you are a

team. And right now, this is the opposite of teamwork. I'm about to speak with Michelle and Jeff. They're

45 years old. They have three children and in their own words, they are earning more than ever before,

but they are living paycheck to paycheck. Now, one of my favorite parts of my Netflix show was being able

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your first year of Monarch Core with code remit. At Monarch Loans they have a Nissan Pathfinder for

$48,000. What? That's a lot of money. Whoa. Okay, so their car payment, I think is $999. Klarna. Why are

you using Klarna? I have a lot of questions. So let's get started with Michelle and Jeff. Michelle, in

your application, you said we can't get ahead. We're making the most money we've made in our adult lives,

and it feels like we're still living paycheck to paycheck. Is that still accurate?

 

[00:02:26] Michelle:

Yes. We were. Or I was in the process of trying to figure out how to make our bills that month. Um, we

had just started working with a debt management plan, and I was trying to figure out a budget. I was

trying to figure out how are we making as much as we are, but I still go to the grocery store on Sunday

and worry about the tool. I'm trying to piece it together.

 

[00:02:53] Jeff:

The worrisome on her face. So I got to move this money from this account to this account, or split it up

between these, these two accounts, so we can have money to feed the kids for the week. And, you know,

it's so saying the the worry, the anxiety and the stress on her face is, you know, it's not something

that I want to see.

 

[00:03:18] Ramit:

And Michelle, how long have you been the person in charge of managing the family finances?

 

[00:03:24] Michelle:

Since the start. Um, we joke that our relationship started with me taking his money in monopoly.

 

[00:03:31] Ramit:

Oh. Uh.

 

[00:03:31] Jeff:

My philosophy is I give her the money, and she does what she needs to do with it, and I take care of the

house.

 

[00:03:38] Michelle:

And it just sort of continued that way, I think, because I had more experience at the time, I'd been

living on my own for a while, so I was more familiar with doing things like taxes and insurance and all

of that.

 

[00:03:57] Ramit:

Got it.

 

[00:03:57] Jeff:

I hopped down, ask her how much I make a year because I don't look at my pay stubs. She set up a 401 K

for me. God was asking me two weeks ago, because whatever we need to do to make her feel secure and

comfortable and financially ready for the future, I'm on board for it.

 

[00:04:18] Ramit:

Okay. How long you been married for?

 

[00:04:18] Michelle:

It'll be 20 years in January.

 

[00:04:18] Ramit:

Oh, congratulations.

 

[00:04:25] Michelle:

Thank you.

 

[00:04:25] Ramit:

That's cool. That's a big one. 20 years. Uh, children.

 

[00:04:25] Jeff:

We've got three of them. 16, 12, almost 13 and six.

 

[00:04:31] Ramit:

Okay, excellent. Outstanding. Let's say that we have a really good conversation today. Ten out of ten.

That's what I always plan on. What does each of you walk out of here with Jeff? You first.

 

[00:04:43] Jeff:

For me, it's more insight, more knowledge of what's going on or ins and outs. since she's been trying to

loot me in more in the last month or two. She's getting, you know, interrupted. And she's learning more

about, you know, taking charge of our money.

 

[00:05:02] Ramit:

And but I'm surprised you say you want insight on this call. But I think you also mentioned you're happy

to just hand her the money. So

 

[00:05:08] Jeff:

100%. I think for me, ignorance and financial is bliss. Um. It's selfish. Yes. And not fair for me to put

it on her shoulders. It's not fair to let her carry all the financial burden and have to make all the

decisions and have to be the one saying, no, we can't do this, and no, we can't do that and have to make

her feel like the bad guy. It's easy for me to focus on the kids in the house and everything else in

between, than it is to focus on appearances.

 

[00:05:39] Ramit:

Do you really want insight today?

 

[00:05:39] Jeff:

I mean, I do. I think we both need to be on the same page. Um, so I'm not just, you know, thinking, okay,

she's just being overreacted or it's just, you know, you being paranoid.

 

[00:05:52] Ramit:

So you want to take on some of that burden?

 

[00:05:52] Jeff:

Yeah, I'm a project manager. I do risk assessment. But if I don't know what's going on, if I don't have

all the information, I can't plan.

 

[00:06:06] Ramit:

Jeff. This is not about information. I want to set that right away. It's not about information. It's not

about tools.

 

[00:06:12] Jeff:

No, I agree, it's just kind of was easier just to look the other way.

 

[00:06:16] Ramit:

Yes. Great. That's honest. So Michelle, what about you? Ten out of ten. What would you walk out of here

with.

 

[00:06:22] Michelle:

Confident direction of what steps I need to take and what steps I can take to make sure that we are

eventually in the best financial shape possible. I want to make sure that my kids don't end up in the

same situation I was when my parents died, which was not being able to pay for their cremation because

they didn't have any savings or insurance or anything.

 

[00:06:49] Ramit:

I'm sorry. This this is interesting because this doesn't usually happen when I ask people like, what do

you want to get out of this? Most people say, I want a plan or something like that, which is fine. I love

hearing what you both want. But Michelle, are you telling me that what you want to get out of today is

making sure that your kids can pay for your cremation?

 

[00:07:10] Michelle:

I mean, that's kind of what, uh, prompted all of this.

 

[00:07:10] Ramit:

We'll get to that. But that's what you want to walk out of. How much is a cremation cost?

 

[00:07:17] Michelle:

Um, if you don't get a specialized urn, it's about $2,500.

 

[00:07:22] Ramit:

But that's the dream. $2,500 for your kids. I like hearing what you want. Sometimes I'm gonna push on it

a little. Because I don't think your life is about being cremated for $2,500. That actually is really

depressing.

 

[00:07:33] Michelle:

Yeah,

 

[00:07:33] Ramit:

we got a dream bigger than that, right?

 

[00:07:40] Michelle:

Mhm.

 

[00:07:40] Ramit:

The language in your application really stands out to me. We're living paycheck to paycheck. We've been

doing it the same way for 20 years. Tell me more about that. What does that feel like to you?

 

[00:07:53] Michelle:

It's stressful. It's scary. I don't like not knowing what we would do or trying to figure out, okay, how

are we going to get the kids to school? Or how are we going to get my daughter up to her doctor's

appointments? We don't have anybody to help us with it, and we would be pretty out of luck.

 

[00:08:12] Ramit:

Do you ever feel that way about like, savings or retirement?

 

[00:08:18] Jeff:

If I think about it, yes.

 

[00:08:18] Ramit:

But you don't.

 

[00:08:18] Jeff:

Not the way that I should, though.

 

[00:08:25] Ramit:

And, Jeff, what is your role when it comes to money in this relationship?

 

[00:08:25] Jeff:

As I said at the beginning, I give her my paycheck. And that's that's all I think about it is she's been

taking my money out for 20 years now.

 

[00:08:37] Ramit:

Does it work? Because this is a common. This is actually quite a common one for me.

 

[00:08:42] Jeff:

It works for me. Not much for her because.

 

[00:08:42] Ramit:

It's an honest answer. You know.

 

[00:08:49] Jeff:

Hey, there you go. My lights are still on, you know? But there's gas in the car, and we finally

established ground rules. If I'm not allowed to spend anything over $20 without her permission.

 

[00:09:00] Ramit:

Okay.

 

[00:09:00] Jeff:

Which I agreed to because I'm an impulse buyer.

 

[00:09:00] Ramit:

But it works for you. Okay. And, Michelle, does it work for you?

 

[00:09:07] Michelle:

No. It can be overwhelming. And I don't always feel like I know what I'm doing. I feel like I'm just

piecing things together so we can get to the next paycheck. To make sure we can get to the money.

 

[00:09:18] Ramit:

Why do you do it?

 

[00:09:18] Michelle:

If somebody has to and we have the kids.

 

[00:09:23] Ramit:

I'm not making the connection. Somebody has to. Why is it you?

 

[00:09:23] Michelle:

Because, honestly, I don't trust Jeff to handle the money. I've seen his splurging, and I don't feel like

he has the confidence or the follow through to be able to handle it and trust that something isn't going

to get turned off or something isn't going to happen.

 

[00:09:43] Ramit:

So you do the best you can. And then what.

 

[00:09:49] Michelle:

I'm looking at which of those we could skip this month, which ones we could do a partial pay on. Looking

for solutions because I feel like sometimes we're drowning.

 

[00:09:54] Ramit:

What solutions have you looked for engaged with?

 

[00:10:01] Michelle:

Uh, we've done credit cards, personal loans.

 

[00:10:01] Ramit:

Wait wait wait. Credit cards is a solution.

 

[00:10:07] Michelle:

It's a temporary solution.

 

[00:10:07] Ramit:

Oh, okay. Okay. Go on.

 

[00:10:07] Michelle:

Made it so I could pay the bill. We did get a personal loan at one point to pay off the credit cards, but

did not follow through with that the right way. And ended up with that debt. Plus the credit cards.

 

[00:10:19] Ramit:

What else?

 

[00:10:19] Michelle:

Um, we have looked at bankruptcy.

 

[00:10:26] Ramit:

Okay. What would somebody else do in terms of a solution if they don't know how to manage their money?

 

[00:10:32] Michelle:

They would look at learning how to and figuring out a way to manage it with what they have?

 

[00:10:39] Ramit:

Yes. Have you done that?

 

[00:10:39] Michelle:

I'm starting to, but I'm very new to it.

 

[00:10:46] Ramit:

You've been married almost 20 years. Can we just cut to the chase? I'm not interested in what you've done

in the last one month. People always clean their house before the house cleaner comes. I'm not interested

in that. Have you looked into books and courses and videos and learned about how money works?

 

[00:10:59] Michelle:

I didn't look into courses and videos because to me it always felt like they were geared either towards

people that already had money or it was eat beans and never leave your house until you're completely debt

free. Okay, and that didn't seem sustainable either. That wasn't the way that I wanted to live my life or

wanted us to have to liberalize.

 

[00:11:23] Ramit:

Jeff, you want to add anything to what you just heard there?

 

[00:11:23] Jeff:

Yeah, I'll be honest. Until she mentioned she's been watching this, you know, and, I mean, I knew we had

problems, but again, it's the ostrich in the sand. If I don't watch anything, she watches. I'm in my own

little world. And, uh.

 

[00:11:42] Ramit:

Are you in your own world about money as well?

 

[00:11:42] Jeff:

100%. Um, I just don't look at it. If I don't ask about it, then I don't have anxiety about it. In my

world, it was better for me not to know and then to cause myself anxiety and worry and stress.

 

[00:11:56] Ramit:

So meanwhile, it's not just the ostrich in the sand. The ostrich in the sand is being fed, cable is being

provided, lights are being provided for the ostrich. The ostrich is living quite a good life. They're

chilling.

 

[00:12:12] Jeff:

Yeah. I'll be the first one. You know, they acknowledge that I've saddled the burden of our finances.

 

[00:12:17] Ramit:

Will you be the first to make a change?

 

[00:12:17] Jeff:

I'm trying. Uh, Michelle is sorry.

 

[00:12:17] Ramit:

I didn't get a yes or no answer to my question. You will?

 

[00:12:24] Jeff:

Yes.

 

[00:12:24] Ramit:

It's pretty easy to tell that I am frustrated in this conversation. You know, here we have the parent

child dynamic again, which is inherently frustrating talking about two adults, but it's especially such a

tired old trope to have the guy be the one who's just like, I don't know, what should I do? You're better

at money. I kind of just tired of it. I hope I'm not too forward in saying this, but get up guys. Stop

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[00:16:56] Jeff:

The thing is, is I just I walk away from it so I don't let the tension. I just, I think I just tend to be

an agreement person of. Okay,

 

[00:17:10] Ramit:

1. Feel like you're doing that right now to me. Jeff, do you bring up money conversations.

 

[00:17:10] Jeff:

Only when I don't get what I want?

 

[00:17:16] Ramit:

Give me an example.

 

[00:17:16] Jeff:

The last biggest thing I asked for was a smoker.

 

[00:17:21] Ramit:

Okay,

 

[00:17:21] Jeff:

realistically, I knew we were never going to use it, but I wanted to have it.

 

[00:17:21] Ramit:

When was this?

 

[00:17:28] Jeff:

Before Father's Day, I think. Michel. Wasn't it?

 

[00:17:28] Michelle:

A few months ago.

 

[00:17:28] Ramit:

And what did you say to Michelle? Where were you? And what did you say to her?

 

[00:17:33] Jeff:

Now, I remember we were at Costco. Actually.

 

[00:17:33] Ramit:

Can we just recreate this? Say what you actually said back then. Go ahead. Jeff.

 

[00:17:40] Jeff:

Look at the smoker. It'd be nice to, you know, put a turkey or. Or the bacon or the cheese.

 

[00:17:45] Michelle:

Yeah. I don't really like smoked boots. And we already had one. And you barely used it.

 

[00:17:52] Jeff:

This is newer. It has pellets. You know, we would use it more. You can also, you know, it's not just a

smoker. It's also a grill.

 

[00:18:04] Michelle:

Well, we don't have the space for it, and I really don't think we need it.

 

[00:18:10] Jeff:

But we get rid of your barbecue and we can put the new one there.

 

[00:18:10] Michelle:

I like my barbecue. My barbecue. Works absolutely fine. We just need to clean it before the summer hits.

 

[00:18:17] Jeff:

This would be easier upkeep because it's pellets and not gas?

 

[00:18:22] Michelle:

No, I remember pellets being more expensive, and that was one of the reasons we didn't use the last

smoker you had.

 

[00:18:28] Ramit:

Okay. Okay. Time out. Pause. Great job. That was very authentic. Did you reach a resolution on that

conversation?

 

[00:18:33] Jeff:

No, I didn't get it. It's in the long run. I know it's not practical.

 

[00:18:39] Ramit:

Why'd you ask, then?

 

[00:18:39] Jeff:

Because it's shiny.

 

[00:18:46] Ramit:

Is it serious? Like, are you. Are you being serious right now?

 

[00:18:46] Jeff:

No. I'm serious. Yeah. No, it was shiny. It was something new. It was something that I wanted. You know,

I've seen it before, and I'm competing with my father. And, you know, because he had one, I wanted one,

and.

 

[00:18:56] Ramit:

Whoa. What? Michel, what was that reaction from you?

 

[00:19:01] Michelle:

That was agreement. Because that's a lot of what it comes down to. His dad gets a smoker and suddenly he

wants a smoker. His dad gets a black stone and talks about how great that is. And Jeff wants to get a

box. Stone.

 

[00:19:14] Ramit:

Wow. That little example there shined so much light on the dynamic here. Can I ask you both what role was

each of you playing? Uh, Jeff, what role were you playing?

 

[00:19:28] Jeff:

I was more of the dreamer. She's more of the real, you know, realistic. She's the one that keeps me

grounded. Of saying it's got a dub. You know you're not going to use it. You used the last one maybe

once.

 

[00:19:39] Ramit:

Okay, dreamer. And when you say she keeps you grounded, if she wasn't there, what would you do?

 

[00:19:44] Jeff:

I would have bought it. You know, I would have spent the money and dealt with the consequences later.

And, um. That's what I've always done.

 

[00:19:51] Ramit:

Okay. And, Michelle, what role were you playing?

 

[00:19:57] Michelle:

I was being the authoritarian. I was trying to put roles down in control things.

 

[00:20:05] Ramit:

Mm. I agree with everything you both just said. And I see Jeff as pushing the limits, even kind of

knowing. You kind of said it with a smile. Jeff. I knew I really shouldn't get it. I knew it's not

practical, but, like, let me try to get it anyway. Pushing the limits. And Michelle, whether

involuntarily or voluntarily, takes on the role of. The parent. The parent and the parent has to do what?

Michelle, I

 

[00:20:37] Michelle:

have to say. No.

 

[00:20:37] Ramit:

You have to say no. You have to give a list of reasons. And I noticed that you both engage in this thing.

Jeff says, what about this? Then you have to explain why not? Well, what about this? No. Well, I don't

know. Well, what about this? The pellets are actually more expensive. And then does anyone walk out of

there feeling good? Well, I'll just ask you, did you walk out of there feeling good?

 

[00:20:56] Michelle:

Eventually, but I was I was initially frustrated that it was a conversation again, and it felt like I was

having to defend the no.

 

[00:21:01] Jeff:

Yeah. I don't know what I was expecting. Oh, when I asked, knowing, you know, I knew the outcome

eventually was going to be no. But, you know, it was I don't know why I did it.

 

[00:21:15] Ramit:

You know why. Think about it. Why did you ask? You know why.

 

[00:21:20] Jeff:

There's a 5050 chance that she would say yes.

 

[00:21:20] Ramit:

Exactly.

 

[00:21:20] Jeff:

And that's how we got in to 95% of where we're at is because I'm an impulse. And there's sometimes she

just doesn't want to deal with it. And then I'm dealt with the consequences and who's.

 

[00:21:34] Ramit:

Who's dealt with the consequences.

 

[00:21:34] Jeff:

Well, both of us. Well, mostly her, because then she has to figure out, okay, that $500, where is that

going to be pulled from?

 

[00:21:46] Ramit:

Michelle, what are you what are you noticing as you hear this from Jeff?

 

[00:21:46] Michelle:

It's kind of frustrating because he knows what he's doing and still does it, even though it puts more

pressure on me and makes things more difficult for me. Yes. And I feel like he's doing it intentionally,

which doesn't feel cool.

 

[00:22:03] Ramit:

It doesn't feel cool, Jeff, I don't that's why I didn't really buy you saying, I don't know why I do it.

You know why you do it. Just like anybody knows why they walk into a casino and they gamble. Because once

every 20 times they win a little bit of money and it's a little bit of fun. It's actually fun. I could

kind of see the glee on your face when you talked about the smoker and the pellets and the this, and

that's fun for you to talk about, but it's not fun for Michelle because she's thrust into this role of

being the, as she put it, the authoritarian or the naysayer, the the. No. That's kind of just sucks.

 

[00:22:30] Jeff:

No, it's not right for me to put her in that spot either.

 

[00:22:37] Ramit:

How long have you been doing this for?

 

[00:22:37] Jeff:

I mean, the last, biggest thing was when I convinced her to buy a timeshare when we were in Vegas on

vacation. It's been going on a while.

 

[00:22:48] Michelle:

Yeah. This dynamic, I would say probably since around 2010, 2011. I mean, back in 2010, it was just me

and her. We were back then. We were paycheck to paycheck, but we were making it work.

 

[00:23:01] Ramit:

Looking back, I'm always curious about this. Do you see any clues with each other early in on your

relationship, financially speaking, with where you are now?

 

[00:23:08] Michelle:

Oh yeah, we have a bigger paycheck, but it's almost a mirror image of where we were 20 years ago. Still

feeling like we're not making enough. Still doing the silly splurges. Um, just with a little more

responsibility now because we have the kids.

 

[00:23:25] Jeff:

Oh, yeah. Oh, when? Yeah, when we met each other, I was going through a divorce, and I had disposable

income. Um, I didn't care. I was living in an RV and my parent's property, and. Yeah, I didn't have any

any other expenses except for the rent that was paying them to live in the RV. And, yeah, I don't look at

long term finances. I look, you know, the here and now.

 

[00:23:50] Ramit:

Do you look at long term for anything?

 

[00:23:50] Jeff:

I mean, I do have life insurance.

 

[00:23:50] Ramit:

Just in general. Are you a long term person or.

 

[00:23:56] Jeff:

No. I used to. Be. Um, but as I got older and more cynical, I stopped.

 

[00:24:02] Ramit:

What caused you to become more short term thinking?

 

[00:24:02] Jeff:

Just the way our world is? And, you know, you see, every day it's. You know, you could be out of Walmart

grocery shopping, and somebody else is having a worse day than you and decides to go on a rampage. You

could be watching a movie.

 

[00:24:13] Ramit:

Were you ever long term thinking about money?

 

[00:24:20] Jeff:

Yeah, with my first wife. Yes.

 

[00:24:20] Ramit:

Okay. Michelle, are you a long term thinker?

 

[00:24:27] Michelle:

No, I think it depends. I want to be a long term thinker, but I don't always have the patience for it.

 

[00:24:33] Ramit:

But oddly enough, you talk about your impending cremation decades from now. I don't mind it. I'm learning

a lot already. This is very helpful.

 

[00:24:38] Michelle:

I wasn't caring, but then we had our first kid, and I recognized that we needed to be more careful in

some areas, and we needed to start saying no to things and just.

 

[00:24:50] Ramit:

Who needed to say no.

 

[00:24:57] Michelle:

I needed to say no to Jeff when he would want to do things or get things that didn't make sense.

 

[00:25:03] Ramit:

And thus the pattern was born 15 plus years ago. First kid was born. Who was the person who made the

decision to change the dynamic around money? Michelle, in the sense that I need to now take on the burden

and say no. So I'm going to create this almost force field. I will absorb all of Jeff's inquiries. Can we

get this? Can we get that? What about this? Let's buy a timeshare and I'll take on the burden myself. And

once in a while I'll crack. Or as Jeff puts it, 50% of the time I'll crack, which will lead us into more

financial trouble. But I am the one who's going to have to say no to Jeff.

 

[00:25:37] Jeff:

I think in the last six months, I'm understanding that we're not in a good spot. I've not been trying to

play the games of let's buy this, buy that.

 

[00:25:51] Ramit:

What? When was the Costco thing?

 

[00:25:51] Jeff:

Father's day, two months ago. I'm trying to be better as she's explaining more and more and opening up

more and more.

 

[00:25:57] Ramit:

How long is it going to take?

 

[00:26:03] Jeff:

I don't know, I'm kind of I'm pigheaded and know the ramifications if I don't learn. And if I don't ask,

 

[00:26:10] Ramit:

what are they?

 

[00:26:10] Jeff:

We're going to be like my parents, living in a place that they can't afford to move out of. When the

floors are falling apart and the wiring is going and the mold is spreading, and there's nothing else they

can do because they're on Social Security and they're too far in debt.

 

[00:26:26] Ramit:

I'm being pretty relentless with Jeff. I'm asking him a lot of questions with increasing intensity and

specificity. It's not an accident. I'm doing this on purpose. Jeff lives in a world where he says a lot

of words that are up in the clouds, and Michelle simply accepts them. You see this in couples, where

they've been together for a long time, so they don't really interrogate what each other means. But I

don't accept that. And I have the latitude to ask him questions, to make him own what he's actually

saying. I think he probably has never actually heard himself say what he actually means. He's been living

in the clouds, and I'm here to bring him down to the street. What was it like doing the conscious

spending plan together?

 

[00:27:05] Jeff:

We didn't. She tried to show me the numbers. Um, but my ADHD had me thinking about other stuff.

 

[00:27:16] Ramit:

Are you diagnosed?

 

[00:27:16] Jeff:

No. Um. But I know I have it. Um. Because something. Because reality. You know, ignorance is bliss. If

you know, I know that I have problems. It's definitely there. My son has it. Yeah.

 

[00:27:30] Ramit:

Is he diagnosed?

 

[00:27:30] Jeff:

Oh, yeah, 100%. Yeah, I definitely see the patterns of him in me.

 

[00:27:37] Ramit:

Mhm. Mhm. Why have you not gotten diagnosed?

 

[00:27:37] Jeff:

I don't like doctors. I don't like going to doctors. It's Michelle tells me to do it all the time. It's

just I think again it goes back to you know I don't want the reality or the medications or it's easy for

me to, you know, blame it on that then.

 

[00:27:55] Ramit:

Yeah. Anything else? When you suspected your son had ADHD. Did you seek out help.

 

[00:28:02] Jeff:

For my son? Yes. Right away. Right away. Yes, I. Yeah. When he was in elementary school.

 

[00:28:08] Ramit:

But not for you. Even though it affects your wife.

 

[00:28:15] Jeff:

For me, it's. It's being selfish.

 

[00:28:15] Ramit:

You're okay being selfish. It's rare that I hear someone admit that you've now mentioned it twice.

 

[00:28:22] Jeff:

It's. It's me. It's it's how it comes down again. It's. It's my house.

 

[00:28:29] Ramit:

Look at your wife. You told me that she's the one worried at the grocery store about going up to the

counter in the car. Doesn't charge. It goes.

 

[00:28:40] Jeff:

It goes beyond. You know that again, if nobody communicates about where we are with the money, where we

send. You know, it's hard for me to focus on, okay, this is the issues. Okay.

 

[00:28:46] Ramit:

I want to ask you both, how do you like to proceed here today? Because you both came on money for

couples. this is not money for one person in a couple, it's money for couples. I have a very strong

philosophy. The only way that you two of you will succeed is if the two of you are a team. And right now,

this is the opposite of teamwork.

 

[00:29:12] Jeff:

I've been trying to be more engaging. Yeah, because I know this is important. You know, we're 45 years,

46 years old.

 

[00:29:17] Ramit:

Jeff, I don't think trying harder is really going to change much.

 

[00:29:23] Jeff:

And for me, trying harder is better than not trying at all. The last couple of days, last week or two,

uh, I've been showing commitment to move outside of my comfort zone and going back to school. I got super

out of my comfort zone and started applying for new places, and it took a lot because I don't like

uncertainty and I don't like new things. And anything going forward is is trying rather than just sitting

back and letting Michelle shoulder the the burden. I mean, for me, putting in an effort is is trying

rather than not.

 

[00:30:04] Michelle:

And part of that might be you admitting that or at least trying to go to the doctor. I think part of your

fear is going to the doctor, them saying, oh, there's nothing wrong, it's just your personality. And I

say that as somebody with mental health issues that didn't go to the doctor for a very long time for

them, because I was afraid they were going to tell me it was all in my head.

 

[00:30:25] Jeff:

I know again, again, going back to that fear of the unknown. If you know, is it my personality, then how

can I fix the personality?

 

[00:30:35] Michelle:

Well, there's lots of ways to do that too.

 

[00:30:35] Jeff:

No, I agree. I mean, I know it's again, I'm conscious of me being selfish. I don't agree with it. It's

it's my personality. It's it's easier for me just to to laugh it off, push it aside and and just move on

to the next thing. Yes, I know it hurts, Michelle, but at the same time, I don't know how to get out of

the cycle.

 

[00:31:02] Ramit:

What do you mean? She's telling you a very clear next step to get out of the cycle. Are you hearing her?

 

[00:31:07] Jeff:

I am hearing her.

 

[00:31:07] Ramit:

What is she saying? Put it plainly in English for me.

 

[00:31:12] Jeff:

That at the end of this call I should speak to my doctor?

 

[00:31:12] Ramit:

Yes. And what is your response to that?

 

[00:31:18] Jeff:

That we will talk about it.

 

[00:31:18] Ramit:

I'm struggling a bit right now. I want to help. I'm here. I'm prepared. I'm ready. This would be one

thing if the two of you had $2,000 of credit card debt. We could be flexible. We could work through it.

The status of your financial situation is much different. You are in your 40s. You have three children

now. Is there a way to fix it? I think so, but I cannot fix it. I cannot even help you fix it unless both

of you are 100% in and committed. I'm not hearing that right now. I'm hearing we should think about it.

We should talk about it. I've started trying in the last two weeks. The only way out of this is full

commitment from both of you. So here's what I would like to propose. I would like for the next five

minutes for you to to go off camera. And I would like for you to talk. What do you want? Because if the

answer is, hey, we're not both ready to fully commit. Just come back here, tell me and we will part ways.

No hard feelings at all. But if you want my help, if you want to have a future that is bigger than a

cremation, there has to be full commitment. So I want to give you the next five minutes talk. Come back

and let's discuss whatever decision you reach. I will respect it. I'll see you back in a few. I almost

ended the call right here, and I never do that. I want to help. I believe that I can help most people if

they are willing to be helped. My show is called money for couples. It's not money for individuals. And

if I'm going to do what I do, I need both parties to want to be here. So I sent them away. I'm not sure

how this is going to go. I think for the first time on this podcast, they may leave and not come back.

We'll find out. Final few months of the year. I recommend using it to tie up loose ends and start the new

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Fabric for additional disclosures. This is a paid ad. One of my favorite things on this podcast is

watching my guests have an aha moment about their money dynamics. Because these money problems are not

just numbers they put on their conscious spending plan. You can build the perfect CSP, but if you don't

understand why you behave the way you do, the numbers are just going to keep repeating themselves. That's

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could pay as little as $0 for therapy in seconds. At growth therapy, that's growth therapy. Availability

and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. I waited five minutes, came and went. Seven minutes came.

It was like the Apollo 13 movie. The time has come and gone and suddenly the flickering came back. And to

me, that's actually a beautiful moment. You have to really want help to come on. Money for couples. It's

not easy. It is not. It is hard. It's hard to talk about your relationship publicly. It's hard to share

numbers that are often embarrassing or shameful. Maybe to even admit that you, or your behavior, or even

your character may need some development that is incredibly difficult. So I give them props for coming

back. I really appreciate I appreciate every guest that does. How was your conversation?

 

[00:36:24] Jeff:

I think we're on the same page. I mean, it's realigning. You know, we took a second to realign

expectations, and we have both expressed what we wanted out of this that I need to take, you know, to

take that step of going to the doctor and seeing if it's in my head or if it's just my personality. But I

have to make that conscious step of being supportive and not just looking at myself and what's right for

1. But I'm willing to change. I'm willing to learn. And

 

[00:37:01] Ramit:

Michelle, what about you? What'd you talk about?

 

[00:37:01] Michelle:

I mean, sure, if I asked him or let him know that this needs to be something that he wants to do because

he wants to do it, not just because I want him to do it. I also accepted that I need to be willing to

share the control and talk about it, and not just bottle it up.

 

[00:37:19] Ramit:

Great. This is about creating an action plan, not a I hope this happens in the future plan. I love that.

So just so I'm clear, are you agreeing you're going to go talk to a doctor about ADHD and whatever else

may be on your mind and see what they say?

 

[00:37:38] Jeff:

Yeah, I've already committed to Michelle.

 

[00:37:44] Ramit:

I think that's awesome. It's going to make a profound change in your life. ADHD and money is a studied

phenomenon. This is very well studied. We had an ADHD expert on money from the Financial Therapist

Association, doctor Christine Hargrove, in our Rich life program. We're going to put a link for people if

they'd like to join the program, and they can access that. We have a whole community in the program where

many people share openly about what it's like to have ADHD, how it relates to their money. This is an

important topic, one that we talk about. So that's number one. I want you to get diagnosed, if

appropriate, or at least talk to your doctor. That's a massive change. I actually want to just take a

second to give you both a round of applause. I actually think this could be a different trajectory for

the two of you, for the rest of your lives and for your children. Fantastic. This is big. Shall we

continue on knowing Jeff has work to do. He's going to see a doctor. He's going to pursue that of his own

accord, not because Michelle wants it. Michelle has already committed to being willing to give up some

control. And so we know those things are going to require a lot of work, a lot of time and compassion

from each other. But let's just assume that those happen very well. Let's keep moving. I would like to

put this conscious spending plan up on screen, and I would like to go through it. Okay. Assets 26,800.

Investments $264. Savings $571. Debt $186,000. For a total net worth of -$159,170. Okay. What is the

debt?

 

[00:39:29] Michelle:

Both of our student loans. I want to say we're around 65.

 

[00:39:29] Ramit:

Okay.

 

[00:39:29] Michelle:

The car and then credit card. The credit cards and the loans.

 

[00:39:36] Ramit:

How much are the credit cards? The credit

 

[00:39:41] Michelle:

cards are at 18 for and the loan is currently at 17.5.

 

[00:39:41] Ramit:

What do you make of these numbers?

 

[00:39:48] Jeff:

They suck.

 

[00:39:48] Ramit:

Yeah. What else?

 

[00:39:48] Michelle:

From my perspective, it doesn't look like there's a way out of it to be. One thing I did want to add that

I didn't get to when we took out the personal loan, what spurred it on was we were going to have a

judgment against us from creditors, and we were facing garnishment. Yeah. And we needed the loan to pay

that off. There was still student loans at that point too, but we were focused on not getting garnished.

 

[00:40:12] Ramit:

Why?

 

[00:40:12] Michelle:

It was 25% of my take home pay. That would have killed us. That would have. We wouldn't have made them

pay rent. We wouldn't.

 

[00:40:23] Ramit:

What'd you end up doing?

 

[00:40:23] Michelle:

Took the loan out.

 

[00:40:23] Ramit:

The loan out? Did it help or hurt?

 

[00:40:23] Michelle:

It ended up hurting because we didn't do it the right way.

 

[00:40:29] Ramit:

Exactly. Okay. Income. We have Hundred and $87 a month in gross income. That's $178,000. That's a lot.

Yeah. Like you take home $10,600 a month. That's pretty good. Again, keeping in mind you have three kids.

So we need to put this in context. $178,000. You're essentially contributing nothing to your 401.

 

[00:40:56] Michelle:

We just started the four KS. I was nervous about losing money in the paycheck, so I started off at, I

think, 1%.

 

[00:41:02] Ramit:

Your fixed costs are 87%. Well, right there is why you feel stressed out about money. Michelle. That plus

Jeff ignoring it 87% means you can't get ahead and it effectively means you are spending more than you

make every single month. Are you aware of that?

 

[00:41:14] Michelle:

Yes.

 

[00:41:20] Ramit:

Yeah. All right, let's take a look. Your rent or mortgage is. Huh? Am I reading this right? $1,695.

 

[00:41:26] Michelle:

It is rent. We are extraordinarily lucky. I have an amazing landlord.

 

[00:41:26] Ramit:

Amazing 11.39% never leave. Where's all the rest of the money going? 87%. Utilities 668. Fine car payment

$1,000. Is this for 1 or 2 cars?

 

[00:41:39] Jeff:

One.

 

[00:41:39] Ramit:

What'd you get?

 

[00:41:46] Jeff:

It is a Nissan Pathfinder.

 

[00:41:46] Ramit:

Why? And how much did it cost?

 

[00:41:46] Jeff:

Because we needed the seating for five people. The winters here can be harsh, and you do need to be able

to get up your hills. Otherwise, you're going to be walking half a mile in the snow. How much did the car

cost? Um. 76,000.

 

[00:42:02] Ramit:

$76,000. Who decided on that one?

 

[00:42:09] Jeff:

Uh, that was me. That we got the little flier. Hey, uh, we can get you in a better car and and all this.

And we just went in there with the understanding that we would, you know, not pay more than what we were

paying when we left. I decided in the long run that it would be better for us to have a newer car with a

better warranty. Uh, it has less miles that we could maintain.

 

[00:42:34] Ramit:

Jeff. Looking back. Was that a good decision?

 

[00:42:34] Jeff:

No, it was not. Um, because we I think our payments went up. It was like $300 extra a month. He

 

[00:42:48] Michelle:

was very convincing at the time, and the idea of having a more reliable, reliable vehicle did seem like a

smart move.

 

[00:42:55] Ramit:

Um, grew. Up. Poor?

 

[00:42:55] Jeff:

Yes. Yes. Well, technically, yes.

 

[00:43:02] Ramit:

That's a luxury vehicle.

 

[00:43:02] Michelle:

I will also add that part of it, I think, was also the fact. Oh, you're going to approve us for financing

on a nicer car?

 

[00:43:08] Ramit:

That's a classic. That's exactly who they target. First of all, you should not be responding to things

coming in the mail. Any mail you get is, by definition, a bad deal. They're literally buying high risk

addresses and sending out and giving you the worst deal. And you bought it. Again, I'm not saying this to

berate you or beat you down. I'm actually trying to show you the game being played around you and you

were susceptible to it, but you also willingly participated in it. So this is accountability is learning.

Hey, we did this decision. We Jeff was convinced by the the we need this and that. And he says looking

back is a bad decision. Agreed, Michel. We need a more reliable car. And now here you are with a $1,000

payment. That's crazy. All right, let's move on. Uh, debt management plan. That's $486. What is that?

 

[00:44:02] Michelle:

It's a nonprofit. They helped us work with our credit cards to get them shut down, get the, uh, interest

rates lowered on most of them, and we pay that. They pay them. There is no additional fee that they add

on to it or anything.

 

[00:44:21] Ramit:

Cool. What's the other debt?

 

[00:44:21] Michelle:

Uh, loans that were not rolled into the debt management plan because that was just credit card. So that's

the personal loan. Um, we have a loan for furniture that were finished. Almost paid off on.

 

[00:44:34] Ramit:

You took a loan for furniture?

 

[00:44:34] Michelle:

Yes. Because we couldn't afford to pay.

 

[00:44:40] Ramit:

How much was the furniture?

 

[00:44:40] Michelle:

I want to say it was $3,000.

 

[00:44:40] Ramit:

What did you get for 3000?

 

[00:44:40] Michelle:

We got a new couch. We got a new website. Um, I will also 100% say part of this was emotionally coping

with my mom passing and us having to take over the upstairs of the house that had been hers and wanting

it to be ours.

 

[00:45:08] Ramit:

I'm sorry to hear that. I want you both to get out of this cycle where it feels like there's always

something coming up. That's what it feels like, right?

 

[00:45:14] Michelle:

Yes. I mean, we're not even halfway down the fixed costs, and there's just something that comes up.

There's a car, there's a credit card, there's a sofa. There's on and on and on. How long has it felt like

that? Always

 

[00:45:29] Ramit:

like the car did not need to happen. Not that car. And there are a variety of other decisions I'm sure we

will discover that did not need to happen. So the real path forward is for the two of you to do some

heavy, sustained work on what are we getting out of being in this really reactive place, both of us. Can

I just check in before we get into the numbers? How's everybody feeling right now, Michel?

 

[00:45:55] Michelle:

I'm okay.

 

[00:45:55] Ramit:

You look a bit like there's something going through your head, and I just want to check in with you. And

I want to make sure that we're not. Nobody feels like, hey, you know, this is just, like, hopeless.

That's never my intention. Michel. How you feeling?

 

[00:46:11] Michelle:

Yeah. No, I definitely don't feel hopeless. I think it's just emotional conversations.

 

[00:46:16] Ramit:

Yeah. They're hard. Um, yeah.

 

[00:46:16] Michelle:

And I can be overly emotional.

 

[00:46:23] Ramit:

There's a lot of work to unpack there. Let's keep going. We have medical, 200 groceries and household

good $2,000 a month. What's that?

 

[00:46:29] Michelle:

I have been struggling to get that down. Um, that was our average over the last several months when I was

looking at our purchases.

 

[00:46:36] Ramit:

Okay, we'll look at that in detail. Um, clothes, 100. Pets 300. How many pets?

 

[00:46:42] Jeff:

Uh, we've got three dogs. And then we also have three cats.

 

[00:46:49] Ramit:

Oh my God.

 

[00:46:56] Jeff:

Yes we. Have. Yes, we have five cats and three dogs.

 

[00:46:56] Ramit:

You have eight pets?

 

[00:47:03] Michelle:

Yes.

 

[00:47:03] Ramit:

Okay. All right.

 

[00:47:03] Jeff:

What do we got from her parents after they passed away? So we can't really just tell him to go find

someplace else to live.

 

[00:47:16] Ramit:

How much of this stuff that we're seeing on the CSP is, like, emotionally driven?

 

[00:47:16] Michelle:

The debt. Most definitely.

 

[00:47:21] Ramit:

The car was emotional.

 

[00:47:21] Jeff:

Yes, we're a car. I mean, the we went from having 26% interest on a car loan and they're like, oh, we'll

give you this loan for 10%. And it was kind of a reward for us. In my mind, it was worth for us getting

back on track. If that's emotional. I think it's 90% of my spending was emotional and self convincing.

Yes, we need it.

 

[00:47:48] Ramit:

Thank you.

 

[00:47:48] Jeff:

I'm able to then put Michelle into my way of thinking.

 

[00:47:56] Ramit:

Let's just continue going down the list here we have eight pets for $300 a month. Phone $446 a month.

What?

 

[00:48:02] Michelle:

I'm working on that one.

 

[00:48:09] Ramit:

Subscriptions at $192 a month and miscellaneous at $500 a month. 87%. You're broke.

 

[00:48:09] Jeff:

Yeah,

 

[00:48:17] Ramit:

just looking at it. What do you see here?

 

[00:48:17] Michelle:

Spending too much.

 

[00:48:17] Ramit:

Okay, Jeff.

 

[00:48:17] Jeff:

Yeah. We're spending more than we make.

 

[00:48:23] Ramit:

Okay. Your investments are at zero. Your savings are at $150 a month. And that started recently because

your total savings are $571.

 

[00:48:30] Michelle:

Yes.

 

[00:48:30] Ramit:

And finally, your guilt free spending or what remains is $1,252. I'm certain it's higher than that. Would

you agree?

 

[00:48:36] Michelle:

It has to be with the way we feel every month.

 

[00:48:42] Ramit:

What does this CSP tell you? Besides, you're spending too much. What kind of people are you based on

these numbers?

 

[00:48:48] Michelle:

We're impulsive.

 

[00:48:55] Jeff:

Yeah, we are short sighted rather than long.

 

[00:48:55] Ramit:

Yes.

 

[00:48:55] Jeff:

Um, in more instant gratification, we were able to buy it. Makes you know that dopamine.

 

[00:49:02] Ramit:

Yes. Why do you think you do it?

 

[00:49:02] Jeff:

It's just how I grew up. I mean, I didn't have what I wanted. You know, it's it's. We were told. Know a

lot.

 

[00:49:15] Ramit:

What did your family say about money when you were growing up? When you were young?

 

[00:49:15] Jeff:

You didn't talk about it. When we had the government brown box cheese and we, you know, there was times

we didn't have the quarter for lunch because my parents made, you know, $100 more than the poverty line.

So that, again, the free lunch, we had reduced lunch, but at times we couldn't have the breakfast or

lunch because we didn't have the money to pay the school. But we didn't talk about that. You don't talk.

You don't ask for help. You just do it. And consequences. And you know, there's times where you get home.

There was no electricity. There was no running water. You just dealt with it.

 

[00:49:50] Ramit:

What happened as you got older?

 

[00:49:53] Jeff:

I ended up starting to pay my parents to live where I was living with them. I've been paying my parents

since I was 14. I would work my job, that my money would go from me for my aunts to my parents. And that

was it, you know. And that continued on.

 

[00:50:05] Ramit:

How old were you when you stopped paying your parents?

 

[00:50:11] Jeff:

When me and Michel moved in together after the tree fell into the motor home. So 24.

 

[00:50:18] Ramit:

You basically have been paying somebody since you were a kid.

 

[00:50:18] Jeff:

So that's why I was 14.

 

[00:50:25] Ramit:

Yeah, yeah.

 

[00:50:25] Jeff:

It was for me, the way for me to have some responsibility somewhere else. So took it off my shoulders and

put it on somebody else.

 

[00:50:31] Ramit:

Let's go back to your childhood. What? What do you remember about your dad?

 

[00:50:36] Jeff:

What's the drill, sergeant? So, um.

 

[00:50:36] Ramit:

So it wasn't a good relationship?

 

[00:50:43] Jeff:

Um, we didn't have a good relationship with my mom. My mom was those that typical, uh, housewife of the

80s. And, you know, she perpetuated a circle from her dad, and.

 

[00:50:54] Ramit:

Can I ask you a question? This can be a tough question. You don't have to answer. But I had to ask to

understand something. Was your dad disappointed in you?

 

[00:50:59] Jeff:

Oh, yeah, 100%.

 

[00:51:05] Ramit:

Okay.

 

[00:51:05] Jeff:

He would remind me of that all the time.

 

[00:51:05] Ramit:

Does he still do that?

 

[00:51:05] Jeff:

Oh, yeah.

 

[00:51:05] Ramit:

What do you see in the fact that you compare yourself to your dad? He gets a smoker, you want a smoker,

ET cetera.

 

[00:51:11] Jeff:

For me, I. I see that I'm always strive to be better than him. I've always made it a point not to be like

him, not to raise my children the way I was raised. I have Michelle, who's definitely a strong,

opinionated woman. Unlike what I grew up with. That's why I value about her, because she will she will

call me out on my stupid ness.

 

[00:51:44] Ramit:

As opposed to your mom, who is the, quote, traditional 80s housewife. And because your dad was a drill

sergeant who I'm assuming was very directive, told you all the things she needs you from you and you're

doing wrong, etc. you. Now what? Hate being told what to do. Hate being told no. Look at Michelle's face.

 

[00:52:04] Jeff:

Yeah, I don't like being told no. Um, but then I also understand the value of when Michelle says, no.

 

[00:52:11] Ramit:

Not really, you hate being told no. We've seen that multiple times. No, we can't get the smoker. Come on.

The pellets. No, we can't get the car. Well, come on, it's for the warranty. This seems to be a recurring

trend. Am I reading it wrong?

 

[00:52:26] Jeff:

No.

 

[00:52:26] Ramit:

So why are you disagreeing with me?

 

[00:52:26] Jeff:

It's my nature, I guess.

 

[00:52:26] Ramit:

Yes. This nature to disagree, to be contrarian, to provide the devil's advocate.

 

[00:52:33] Jeff:

Yeah. It was a game for me when? With my father.

 

[00:52:40] Ramit:

Exactly. Because no matter what I'm saying, something that is so obvious, it's transparent. It is

axiomatic. And yet you're disagreeing with me. Why? Because you love it. You get pleasure in disagreeing.

Because probably going back to your dad, there's all kinds of stuff that was developed there. But it's

very hard to be a partner with someone who disagrees reflexively just because. What are you realizing

right now? If anything.

 

[00:53:07] Jeff:

There's more things I have to work on.

 

[00:53:07] Ramit:

Yes. And, man, it's probably been really hard for Michelle, so I would love it if we can agree on some

basic stuff and then move forward. What do you say?

 

[00:53:14] Jeff:

Yeah, that's why I'm here. Is there? You see where we can where I can improve.

 

[00:53:21] Ramit:

Great. Michelle, you heard all of that. I want to give you a second and invite you to chime in.

 

[00:53:26] Michelle:

I think part of it also is because of Jeff tries to overcompensate because of the type of father figure

he had. So he tries to overcompensate in some areas, like helping around the house and taking on

household chores that he never saw happen. Um, but on the flip side of that, he does that argumentative

comes up and I don't like conflict, so I try to avoid it, and I think that's a result. A lot of times of

me saying yes to is because I don't want the argument. Yes, but I do think a lot of his choices, his

spending, his habits are a result of growing up poor and not having and now being an adult with adult

money.

 

[00:54:26] Ramit:

And somewhere in the back of your mind, oh, I can do that because I have my adult money. It's classic.

Happens to so many people who grew up poor. They make a little bit of money. They go, I'm never going to

go there again, I'm going to spend more, etc., etc., etc. it's normal, but it can become destructive.

What's interesting, Jeff, is hearing that you overcompensate, as Michelle puts it, but you overcompensate

in some really adaptive, positive ways, like helping around the house. That's actually awesome.

 

[00:54:50] Jeff:

Well, no, I mean, okay, in again, we'll go back to.

 

[00:54:50] Ramit:

Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me?

 

[00:54:56] Jeff:

I'm agreeing.

 

[00:54:56] Michelle:

He's over explaining.

 

[00:54:56] Ramit:

Then why do you start your answer by saying,

 

[00:55:02] Jeff:

no, no. I don't know.

 

[00:55:02] Ramit:

It actually reflects your worldview that I need to disagree. You're saying no the way you said it was

even disagreeable. But you're actually agreeing with me. Just say you're. Right. And actually, I'm

complimenting you. And so is your wife. Hey, this guy helps around the house. That's great. Jeff, take

the compliment. Go ahead.

 

[00:55:26] Jeff:

Yes!

 

[00:55:26] Ramit:

That's it. Boy, this is fascinating. This is why I do what I do. Yeah, money's fine, but I love human

nature. And when I give Jeff a compliment and his first reaction is to say, no, no, no, actually, I go,

oh my God. The lights started going off in my head. Even when I'm complimenting him, he's rejecting it.

He's a contrarian and he doesn't even know he's doing it. There's a constellation of psychological social

dynamics going on here. There's something actually called oppositional reflex. Let me read it to you.

Opposition reflex is an innate, physical and instinctual reaction where an animal or human automatically

pushes or pulls against any applied physical pressure. I once got called out on this by a famous coach.

He said, why do you say no? When you answer questions? It shook me to my core because not only did I not

realize I had this verbal tic, but if you dig in, you realize, oh, I'm disagreeing for no good reason.

Jeff has a lot of layers to pull on. It's one of the reasons that I really want him to see a doctor,

because we can only do so much in a few hours here, but there's actually a really beautiful life ahead as

you start to understand yourself. One thing I've discovered on this podcast is that a lot of us are

confused by our own behavior. Like are you? Think about it. Do you not know why you spend money a certain

way? Do you not know why? You tell yourself I should go to the gym. I should eat better. But you struggle

1. You might actually be confused by your own behavior. And that's a really perplexing place for us to
2. That's why there's so much beauty in being able to understand yourselves. Why I love what I do, and I

want you to see these different aspects of human nature and why I interject so often saying, hey, here's

what's really going on here. I think it's so beautiful to see how we are irrational and confusing and

complex. That's what this is about. As for Jeff, I really want him to get a better understanding of

himself, not only for his own life, but also for his wife. Jeff, I want you to see, I actually I want you

to feel a sense of delight because you just learned something about yourself. You are reflexively

oppositional, and it doesn't actually help you. You disagree. Even when we are talking in a complementary

way about you, and it's actually not serving you. This would be topic number 1 or 2 that I would bring up

with my therapist. And I would also bring it up with my doctor, because you will be able to go so far,

you cannot imagine how many opportunities have been around you, but you oppose them just normally being a

contrarian, but actually, like if you can change your way of looking at the world, you might find that a

lot of people are much more agreeable than you think. It's like profound how deep you can go with this.

So I hope you take that and run with it as you speak to some of your medical providers. It's actually

amazing what you're going to be able to do. Are you cool with that?

 

[00:58:34] Jeff:

Yeah.

 

[00:58:34] Ramit:

Okay. Michelle, what about how you grew up? What do you remember about your family? What did they say

about money when you were young?

 

[00:58:40] Michelle:

Not a whole lot I did. Sometimes I did hear, you know. No, you can't have that. That's too expensive. We

were okay, but barely. I remember my parents having an argument in my dad leaving, My mom kicking him

out, actually, until he got his back pay. Um, I remember my mom not being able to open a checking account

because she wrote too many bad checks. I remember being taught, don't answer the door if it looks like

it's the electric person, because they're here to shut us off.

 

[00:59:15] Ramit:

In what ways do you continue on the models that your parents set for you today?

 

[00:59:22] Michelle:

There was a lot of struggling with managing bills. Um, I thought it was normal to not be able to pay all

of your bills every month.

 

[00:59:29] Ramit:

Okay. What else?

 

[00:59:29] Michelle:

Obviously, we don't haven't had conversations about money. It's not something that we really talk about.

 

[00:59:34] Ramit:

Talk to your kids about money.

 

[00:59:39] Michelle:

No. This has been a point of contention. We will tell them. No, we can't afford that.

 

[00:59:43] Ramit:

That's what your parents told you?

 

[00:59:43] Michelle:

Yes.

 

[00:59:43] Ramit:

Why do. Why do you continue the cycle?

 

[00:59:43] Michelle:

One. It's program. That's how it's supposed to be. You don't burden the kids with the problems of money

other than to tell them, you know. No, we can't get that.

 

[00:59:56] Ramit:

And you today do not burden the kids with money, right?

 

[01:00:02] Michelle:

No.

 

[01:00:02] Ramit:

Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. That's quite interesting. You grew up poor. Right. That's how you described it.

 

[01:00:09] Michelle:

Close to poor. Close. We weren't as poor as Jeff's family.

 

[01:00:09] Ramit:

Okay.

 

[01:00:09] Michelle:

Um, we were never on state assistance, but we couldn't pay our bills. We got kicked out of houses.

 

[01:00:15] Ramit:

Okay. Foreclosures. Lower middle class. Let's call it maybe poor.

 

[01:00:22] Michelle:

Yeah.

 

[01:00:22] Ramit:

In what ways are you trying to break the cycle of money that you were taught?

 

[01:00:27] Michelle:

I have started pushing to when our kids asked, you know, how much did things cost? Telling them something

that Jeff's is very much against. He will often tell them it doesn't matter. We got it for you. Um, being

transparent with them on cost of things, talking to our son about savings and things that I would like to

help him do when he gets his first job, to get him into the habits that I didn't have when I had my first

job.

 

[01:00:51] Ramit:

What about actually modeling it?

 

[01:00:57] Michelle:

I I'm trying to. Yes. That's part. Again, that's a piece of why I'm doing what I'm doing right now. I

want to be able to show him. Number one. It's okay to ask for help. Yes. Number two, it's okay if you

don't know all the answers. You can figure it out. Yes. And number three, here are the things you can do

so that you don't fall into the same cycle that we were in.

 

[01:01:22] Ramit:

Great. Uh, Jeff, you.

 

[01:01:22] Jeff:

Yeah. Know me. Uh, I have been you're more open with our son about it because he's that age. And I wish

my parents would have sort of sat me down and explained things better. But I think also, me and Michelle

also have better patterns than our our parents. We're not going to take out credit card in our kids names

or bank accounts. And our kids.

 

[01:01:48] Ramit:

Who did that?

 

[01:01:48] Jeff:

Both of our parents.

 

[01:01:48] Ramit:

What?

 

[01:01:55] Jeff:

I went away and there was a bank that sent checks to my house thinking I was there. My parents forged my

name on these checks. And same thing with credit cards. What? And Michelle.

 

[01:02:09] Michelle:

My mother used credit cards. I think it was a Macy's or JCPenney credit card that I got. Maxed it out.

Buying Christmas presents. Um. My dad. I don't know if my dad's kind of, like, was kind of like Jeff's in

that he was not very good with money.

 

[01:02:23] Ramit:

Oh, no. Hold on. I'm so shocked. I'm sure the parents are similar to what this is like. It's like saying

I drink water. Whoa. Really? Oh. Yeah. But. But recognizing that pattern is powerful. It's great. Did you

know that before today?

 

[01:02:51] Michelle:

I didn't make the connection on the financial side. I knew part of why I fell in love with Jeff was

because he reminded me of my dad. With his stupid jokes and wanting to make people laugh and everything.

Um, but I hadn't made the connection on the money side.

 

[01:03:10] Ramit:

Okay.

 

[01:03:10] Michelle:

But my dad unknowingly used my checking information to sign up for something online.

 

[01:03:16] Ramit:

I hate that. I hate that your parents did this to you. The people you should love and trust the most took

advantage of you. I want you, if you will allow me to trust that there is a way that you can actually

feel good about money. Do you believe that?

 

[01:03:34] Michelle:

Yes.

 

[01:03:34] Ramit:

Michelle says yes. Jeff?

 

[01:03:34] Jeff:

Yeah. No, definitely. I mean, there's yeah, I do believe there's a way for us to feel better about money.

 

[01:03:41] Ramit:

I had no idea that both of their parents had taken out debt in their names. I actually wish I had known

this earlier because it gives me so much more empathy. The feeling of being betrayed by the people

closest to you, and the way that that has to leak over into money, just make you feel horrible about

money. Hate money. Be obsessed with money. Want to ignore money? It's all bad. Now, that was not their

fault. That debt was taken out. That their relationship with money was polluted from early on. But it is

their responsibility to fix it. They are adults. They have children. It's important and nobody else is

coming to do it for them. So that is where we are. I'm glad to understand it. It provides a little bit

more context and it's still their responsibility. I have a lot of friends who are entrepreneurs, a lot of

friends who are not entrepreneurs. And one difference between the two is that the friends who run

businesses basically have to be proactive at work all the time. They cannot wait for something to happen

or a boss to tell them what to do. So you'll find that they're kind of constantly looking around corners,

trying to figure out what's next so they can make plans. And I have found that being proactive is a

skill. If you want to be proactive with next year's taxes, I recommend checking out this episode's

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Gelt is taking on new clients before the year is over. The smartest tax move you can make is not waiting

until next year to get started, so start your year end review at join google.com. I'm opening up Michelle

and Jeff's Monarch accounts so we can drill down into their actual spending over the past couple of

months. Now, our partners at monarch have customized their accounts to follow my exact Conscious Spending

Plan categories, and you can download the CSP template for free at, or try out a customized monarch

account and see all of your numbers in real time. The two actually worked together beautifully. This is

available only for my listeners at monarch, and you can use code to try it for free and get 50% off your

first year of their core tier. All right. Um, can we look at some of the actual spending here? Yes. So I

did a little digging using Monarch. We had you connect your accounts. And so this allows us to drill down

a little bit deeper and see where some of the money is going. So let's take a look. Here we have Klarna.

Why are you using Klarna.

 

[01:06:54] Michelle:

Yeah we use it when our TV broke and then a week later when the child broke the new TV, we had to get a

new TV because it wasn't covered.

 

[01:07:00] Ramit:

Can I ask you a question? One thing after another. You have a family with three kids. You're in severe

debt. You have eight pets and your TV breaks twice in like five days. Do you need a new TV? Wow. Dead

silence on.

 

[01:07:12] Michelle:

That like we did.

 

[01:07:20] Ramit:

It felt like we needed a new TV. It felt like we needed a new car. It felt like we needed a new couch. It

felt. It felt. It felt. What is my point? That is reckless spending. You don't have the money for it. I

don't think either of you have ever said we simply don't have the money for it. It's always been. We'll

figure out how to get the money for it or how to make the purchase happen. Yeah. You're not figuring it

out. You have done everything except say no

 

[01:07:37] Jeff:

for me. The TV was a way for me to unwind after 12 hours a day. And, you know, and it was a way for, you

know, it's for the kids.

 

[01:07:51] Ramit:

It's not about the TV, it's about the fact that we have a couple here, you in your 40s, in severe debt

and inability to say no to like, it didn't even occur to you that maybe we just say no to a TV.

 

[01:08:04] Jeff:

Yeah. I mean, for like 30s.

 

[01:08:04] Michelle:

And then we justified it to ourselves then.

 

[01:08:11] Ramit:

Yes. And you do that a lot. And that's what has led to this spending. So I'm not going to sit here and do

some abracadabra with your conscious spending plan. It's actually YouTube that have to do the work here,

not me. What needs to change.

 

[01:08:22] Jeff:

Our mindset of, you know of this because we have the ability to put it on credit.

 

[01:08:29] Ramit:

You shouldn't put it on credit.

 

[01:08:29] Jeff:

Yes,

 

[01:08:29] Ramit:

nothing goes on credit anymore. Tear them up. It's over. Nothing goes on until you pay it off. That's it.

 

[01:08:35] Michelle:

That is part of why I did the debt management plan, because it shut down all the credit cards, so I can't

we can't go back and fall back on them or use them impulsively. Um, I've removed all of the pay later

apps so that we can get them paid off and be done with them.

 

[01:08:53] Ramit:

Okay, let's take a look at some other, uh, expenses here. I actually love being able to dig in. See, we

to these through monarch. Let's take a look here.

 

[01:09:05] Michelle:

Honestly, I kind of liked it, too.

 

[01:09:05] Ramit:

Yeah, it's fun. Right? It's quite revealing. And again, I like the CSP for being able to see the big

picture. And then we can dig into what the hell. Spring break.

 

[01:09:17] Michelle:

Okay. That was. Just.

 

[01:09:17] Ramit:

Yeah. No not not everyone can see this. Let me just describe it first. Sorry I, I'm looking at a monthly

view of how much they spend eating out. And the chart is quite interesting. So I can see they're eating

out. And November is 447. Then December is 1815 hundred 1400, and then $2,747 in one month.

 

[01:09:44] Jeff:

We took the girls to Vegas for spring break. That was why that was the spike in eating out, because we

were enjoying ourselves, and I was going to figure it out later.

 

[01:09:58] Ramit:

And have you figured it out?

 

[01:10:05] Jeff:

No.

 

[01:10:05] Ramit:

What would the correct decision have been?

 

[01:10:05] Michelle:

We would have done something locally.

 

[01:10:05] Jeff:

Yeah, I would have taken still taking the time off. And that's what our plan is for next year.

 

[01:10:12] Ramit:

Again, if you if you made 150, $175,000 and you had no debt and all your stuff was dialed in, I'd be

like, God bless, this looks awesome. Looks like great food. Fantastic. You don't. You put yourself in a

position where you're in debt. You have very little savings. You have kids. If something happened, you

all are in big trouble. I think that's why you came to me. Am I reading it right?

 

[01:10:40] Michelle:

Yes, yes.

 

[01:10:40] Ramit:

So what are you learning so far on today's call right now?

 

[01:10:40] Michelle:

Looking at these numbers that. The little stuff adds up.

 

[01:10:47] Ramit:

Yeah. You just see that you're happy. Are you happy?

 

[01:10:47] Jeff:

No. Not looking at the numbers. I didn't know we spent. You know, that much money eating out last last

month?

 

[01:10:52] Ramit:

Okay. And, Michelle, what are you learning on this call?

 

[01:10:59] Michelle:

That we need to be stricter with what we say. Yes or no?

 

[01:11:04] Ramit:

To keep talking. I want to hear more.

 

[01:11:04] Michelle:

For example, the eating out. I need to stick to my guns. We're not going to eat out. And we'll be eating

at home, no matter how tired I am or what the week was like.

 

[01:11:16] Ramit:

Success requires hard work, but it often feels good. Being strict, sticking to my guns. That doesn't feel

good. What does it feel like?

 

[01:11:24] Michelle:

It's soft because it feels like when I was a kid and my parents told me no.

 

[01:11:31] Ramit:

Exactly.

 

[01:11:31] Michelle:

And sometimes I just want to go out to dinner with my husband.

 

[01:11:36] Ramit:

Yes. And yet you are telling me that in what you need to do is to be stricter and stick to your guns?

Look at the body language. Right? Look at that deep breath you're taking being strict and sticking to

your guns. Sounds like you at Costco with your husband begging you to get a smoker. And you have to put

up this wall and be like, no, no, it's almost like you're being attacked. Left punch, right punch. What

if it felt easy? What would that look like?

 

[01:11:54] Michelle:

I would know that we have enough money to go out and have Jersey Mike's one Saturday a week when we're

going grocery shopping.

 

[01:12:06] Ramit:

Jeff, what would it look like and feel like if money was easy in your family?

 

[01:12:11] Jeff:

Being able to plan more with the girls rather than, you know, canceling all of our plans.

 

[01:12:17] Ramit:

You should be able to have some fun, no doubt about that. I want you to, but that cannot be the primary

thing that you are focusing on now, because nowhere in your descriptions did you talk about we should

automatically save money. We should know our debt payoff date. Our money should be going to our debt.

Aggressively. This is how many times a week we can eat out. And both of us respect it. It was just I want

to be able to spend more on stuff, which is the same thing that got you into this position in the first

place.

 

[01:12:43] Jeff:

No, I agree, it's shifting. That mindset is it's going to be hard, but it's not unattainable.

 

[01:12:49] Ramit:

The stakes here are very high. If you're in your 20s and you accidentally don't pay a credit card bill

one month and you rack up interest charges, it's not great, but you could fix it. You have time. When you

get into your 40s, you need to be pretty dialed in. If they don't change this dynamic, they will be in

severe debt. No housing options. It's quite ominous to look 15 years down and see where they might be. So

my goal is to get them to break this habit and to build a vision together, which they're both bought in

1. So I decided that I wanted to show them and to show you exactly what I would want. What would I do in

their situation? I'm taking a structured approach, doing three things. Number one philosophy. Number two,

develop money rules. Number three actually make some changes. And I'm going to do this fast. It would be

super easy instead to just be like okay, let's like fiddle around the edges and cut the amount down that

you spend eating out. It's going to do nothing. I would rather elevate them, and I hope maybe they reach

50% of it, 40%, 60%. But I want to show them what excellence looks like. That's what I'm going to do.

This is what I would do if I were in your situation. A philosophy around money that means something like

in our family, we save at least 10% of our net pay. That's an example of a philosophy around money. In

our family. We have a no debt policy. That's another example. What is a philosophy with money that each

of you want to begin. Starting immediately. Though, you're debt free.

 

[01:14:29] Jeff:

We are a debt free family.

 

[01:14:29] Ramit:

I like that. Are you willing to make changes in order to support that philosophy?

 

[01:14:36] Jeff:

Yes, I am

 

[01:14:36] Ramit:

great. Michelle, are you willing to make changes to support that philosophy?

 

[01:14:41] Michelle:

Yes.

 

[01:14:41] Ramit:

Great. What's your philosophy. In this family?

 

[01:14:47] Michelle:

We prioritize saving.

 

[01:14:47] Ramit:

Love it. And what does that mean? Give me a number, a percentage. Typically I say 5 to 10% of net pay.

Let's go in the middle of 7%. 7%. In this family, we saved 7% of net paid. Beautiful. Next, in this

family, we communicate about money. I love. That. You agree with that, Michelle.

 

[01:15:07] Michelle:

Yes, yes,

 

[01:15:07] Ramit:

that is powerful. We communicate. How often do we talk about money? Be specific.

 

[01:15:14] Michelle:

Once a week.

 

[01:15:14] Ramit:

Love it. Once a week. What day? What time? I share my own misery because I. I had a, um, rich life

review. It was like at 6 p.m. on a weekday. And like I kept on kicking the can down the road. My wife

actually told me like, dude, let's be honest, you're writing a book on money for couples and you've

missed the last two meetings. That was very embarrassing. But she was right. And I realized I was missing

him because I was tired at the end of the day and other meetings started encroaching. So what did I do? I

took a hard look in the mirror. I looked at what was going on. I realized this needs to be a priority. I

moved it to a 9 a.m. slot, so I'm not saying it has to be at 9 a.m., but I'm saying don't give yourself a

way to fail. Set yourself up to fail.

 

[01:15:53] Michelle:

Uh, I think we could commit to Sundays at 11:00 or after breakfast.

 

[01:16:00] Ramit:

Sunday, 11 a.m.. Does that work for you, Jeff?

 

[01:16:00] Jeff:

Yeah, it works for me.

 

[01:16:00] Ramit:

Um, I honestly think you have an amazing philosophy here. We are debt free. We prioritize saving 7%, and

we communicate about money once a week at Sunday at 11 a.m.. If you just did this, you could make radical

changes with your money. I think you're doing amazing so far. That is a powerful philosophy. Now you can

have a philosophy and not yet be there. That's okay. In this family we are debt free. Well, you're not

debt free right now, but you can take steps to get there. That's cool. Why am I starting with a

philosophy? And what the hell is a money philosophy? You know, a lot of us do not have a money

philosophy. And I can see it when I look at your spending because it's sloppy. It's spending money on

pickles. Oh, I bought some corn, and then I bought eight dogs. What makes no sense? There's no cohesive

philosophy. But when I see somebody spending where they are spending a ton of money on traveling or on

their car or on their house, and they explain it to me. Here's why. We love where we live. We have two

kids. We want to have a big space. It's amazing. You have a philosophy. What I want you to do is start

off with your philosophy because it gives you a why. It makes it really easy to make decisions when, if

one partner or both say, hey, should we take this trip or should we buy this car? Whatever you look at

your philosophy go, is that important to us? Because in the moment you're going to look at a shiny coat

of paint. Oh, I love it. So cool. But actually, look at your philosophy. I once went on a tour of the

expensive neighborhoods in LA. Okay, this is during Covid. There's nothing to do. We drove to Bel Air.

Beautiful houses, 20 bed, 20 baths. You can only see through the shrubs. I'm looking at it like, oh, I

could live here. Bel air, so nice that your rich life. And then I got home and I was like, what the fuck?

My philosophy is I love walkability. So for that moment I was like, enchanted by how cool these trees

looked. I come home like, I don't really like that stuff. I don't want to live up there in the hills. No.

Have a philosophy. Write it down. Next up. Rules. What are your rules? The things that if you do these,

they are going to make you successful. We always save 10% and we increase that number every 1% every

December, etc. etc.. Third and last we go in and we fixed the numbers. I think most people just skip

right to the numbers. They do this all the time. On this show. I go, hey, what's the problem? They go,

well, we should cut down on a cell phone. Don't drop your cell phone until you know why and what your

rules are. Otherwise, you're just gonna pick something that's gonna save you $15. And then next month,

you're going to go right back to it. You need to think methodically. If you're sitting around fiddling in

a spreadsheet and you don't even know what the problem is, you have taken a very wrong turn. Join my rich

life program. I'm gonna put the link. I am 100 K, learn how to think like this. Or just watch this show

and do it every single week. All right, back to the show. What kind of money rules can we create?

 

[01:18:49] Michelle:

We run a numbers before any purchase.

 

[01:18:49] Ramit:

Okay, great. We run the numbers. What's next?

 

[01:18:54] Jeff:

Don't try to manipulate Michelle.

 

[01:18:54] Ramit:

That's a great one. I like that you're saying these out loud because you can actually print them out, put

them on the fridge, make a little index card. And if something happens, why don't. You can pull it out.

Hey, wait a minute. Are you violating rule number three? Ah, come on, we both agreed. It becomes a fun

thing. Money should be fun, even if it's tough times. Great. What else? Hey, how about eating out?

 

[01:19:13] Jeff:

Reduce it down to no more than twice a month.

 

[01:19:19] Michelle:

I was going to say once a month, with a limit of no more than $75.70.

 

[01:19:19] Ramit:

$5 per month eating out. That includes coffee, that includes pizza that includes gas station stops,

whatever. All of the above 75. So that's basically one meal. Yes. And from looking at where you order,

it's Jersey Mike's or Domino's type of place. Right.

 

[01:19:37] Jeff:

Yeah.

 

[01:19:37] Ramit:

Are we on board with that?

 

[01:19:44] Michelle:

Yeah.

 

[01:19:44] Ramit:

Okay. Just to give you some perspective, do you know how much you spent on eating out this year? It's

August.

 

[01:19:49] Jeff:

Well, I mean, considering that in that one month was $900, I'm thinking we're close to six grand.

 

[01:19:56] Ramit:

Six grand. Let's take a look at monarch. What's this number? Right here. $9,275.

 

[01:20:00] Jeff:

That was one heck of a burger.

 

[01:20:00] Ramit:

We're not even at the end of the year yet. In this family, we eat out once a month for $75. I think it's

incredibly powerful. I think it's amazing, actually. I'm really pleased. I think that's awesome. I

actually think it gives you a lot to look forward to every month. All right. Final thing we're going to

do here, we got some rules. We run the numbers before any purchase. We don't try to manipulate Michelle.

We limit eating out to $75 a month. All this feels good. We're going to now make some changes to the

actual CSP. Jeff, it's up to you. I want you to get us below 60%.

 

[01:20:33] Jeff:

Uh, our cell phone bill can come down to

 

[01:20:40] Ramit:

what?

 

[01:20:40] Jeff:

I think it was, like, $200 off of that.

 

[01:20:40] Ramit:

What, did it drop to 85?

 

[01:20:46] Jeff:

Yeah.

 

[01:20:46] Ramit:

What's next?

 

[01:20:46] Jeff:

Uh, so subscriptions again. We've been working on that. And I mean, I think we can take $50 off of that

 

[01:20:52] Ramit:

watch. The number went from 85% to 85%. No change. Got to think bigger, Jeff.

 

[01:20:59] Jeff:

Groceries. I think that's our next biggest expenditure.

 

[01:20:59] Ramit:

Yep. Michel, if they're looking at it, how can we bring that down to 15?

 

[01:21:06] Michelle:

I think we can do 15.

 

[01:21:13] Ramit:

How often do you all shop out? Go for grocery shopping.

 

[01:21:13] Michelle:

Once a week.

 

[01:21:13] Jeff:

They do Costco once a month, but then we do once a week. We do Safeway, WinCo, and Walmart because we

shop the ads and shop sale. Shop clearance.

 

[01:21:25] Ramit:

Do you shop to a number? Michelle.

 

[01:21:25] Michelle:

Right now? No.

 

[01:21:32] Ramit:

Yeah. Nobody does.

 

[01:21:32] Michelle:

We have been cutting back on what we used to spend.

 

[01:21:32] Ramit:

Look, let me just be blunt. $2,000 a month is just too much for a couple that's in debt. Can we aim for

1500?

 

[01:21:39] Michelle:

Yes.

 

[01:21:39] Ramit:

Drops to 80%. Okay. That's a big difference. What else? The miscellaneous uncategorized spending.

 

[01:21:52] Jeff:

Yes. $100.

 

[01:21:52] Ramit:

Great. We took it down to 76%.

 

[01:21:52] Jeff:

What was it, 300. I don't see us spending $300 a month on the pets. I think we could drop that down to

path. So 150.

 

[01:22:06] Ramit:

Make it 200. I also think having eight pets is something you should think about.

 

[01:22:06] Michelle:

Our pets, our kids. We can't get rid of our kids, so we can't get rid of our pets.

 

[01:22:12] Ramit:

Boy, you're talking the wrong guy about that. And that's fine. That is fine. We all. We all have our own

rich life. Fine. What else? I want to show you something. We need to not get stuck. We need to keep

moving. Savings account. I just want to point out, you currently have $571 in savings. If one of you gets

in an accident or there's a some kind of repair that needs to happen, there is no place for the money to

come from. You will simply rack up more debt, and you'll just end up in the same place you've been for

the last two decades. Therefore, we need to move money to savings. So right now you have $150 going,

which is good. Let's add $750 because that was about 7%, $750 just automatically going into your savings

account, never to be touched except in an emergency. That's great. You still have $7,752 for guilt free

spending.

 

[01:23:03] Michelle:

That's too much.

 

[01:23:10] Ramit:

Yeah. You know, I. We calculated some of your math. And by the time you retire. Michelle, on the current

trajectory you're on, you'll have about $117,000 in retirement. What do you think about that?

 

[01:23:22] Michelle:

I know that's not enough.

 

[01:23:22] Ramit:

Yeah, that would give you about $4,700 a year.

 

[01:23:22] Michelle:

Yeah.

 

[01:23:29] Ramit:

I mean, you two would be living on Social Security. No house. What do you think would happen?

 

[01:23:29] Jeff:

End up living with their kids?

 

[01:23:34] Ramit:

Yes. That is the track that you are on right now. That is the track. Nothing we have done has changed

that. Jeff, it looks like you're having a moment of realization. Am I reading that right?

 

[01:23:46] Jeff:

I'm just. Yeah, it is weird. We're still in that. We're overspending and under earning.

 

[01:23:52] Ramit:

Yes. When are you going to be debt free? Do you know.

 

[01:23:52] Michelle:

Like seven years for the credit card piece? At least I didn't even put in student loans.

 

[01:23:58] Ramit:

Need to pay that off faster. Let me show you. You have $1,752. That's just not going to work anymore. We

need to put an extra Payment towards your debt. If I were me an extra 500 and I might put 500 in

investments because you need to invest. You see how I'm starting to split this money?

 

[01:24:16] Michelle:

Yes.

 

[01:24:16] Ramit:

You'll actually feel incredibly empowered when you do this. And then the two of you can decide in your

Sunday 11 a.m. meetings. Hey, I think we have an extra 100 bucks. Where should we put it? I think it

should go to investments. I think it should go to debt. Well, tell me a little bit about why you think

that. Because I'll tell you a little bit about why I think that. And then let's come to a decision.

That's how healthy money conversations happen.

 

[01:24:41] Jeff:

I think we have that conversation too. And that's what pushed. She pushed me to look for a new job that

makes more. I've been in the same job for 13 years.

 

[01:24:53] Ramit:

I would love that. Could you do that?

 

[01:24:53] Jeff:

Yeah. Um, with my skills right now, I was we were looking at the 130,000 compared to the 90 I'm making

now.

 

[01:25:00] Ramit:

That would. Be. Game changing.

 

[01:25:07] Jeff:

And Michelle is looking.

 

[01:25:07] Ramit:

Yeah. Michelle's also looking at something that would double her take home. Now if one of you does that

it will be transformational. If two of you do that and you follow a plan like this, it will be earth

shattering for the trajectory of you and for your kids. Earth shattering. It is simply the biggest

possible thing you could do. Second to following this plan, but if you do not follow this plan and you go

and make an extra 50 or 100 K, it doesn't matter because you'll just spend it all. The plan is what

matters, the connection between the two of you. It is what makes it possible.

 

[01:25:43] Jeff:

If we have a solid game plan and a solid list of rules that we can follow without, you know, feeling that

it's it's taking away.

 

[01:25:56] Ramit:

Great.

 

[01:25:56] Michelle:

In order for this to work, I need to ask for help. I need to shrug off the eldest grandchild,

granddaughter or daughter persona and involve Jeff in the conversation and the planning. And it is a path

forward, actually is possible, and it doesn't seem as insane or scary as I've thought.

 

[01:26:17] Ramit:

Yes, if you could go back in time and see Michelle in 2010, what would you tell her?

 

[01:26:24] Michelle:

I would tell her that she needs to get Jeff more involved. She needs to share the responsibility and make

sure she's not the only one that knows what bills there are and what needs to be paid. So she's not the

only one that's worrying about it at night.

 

[01:26:43] Ramit:

Nice. And what if that Michelle from 2010 said, yeah, but it's easier for me to do it because I don't

trust Jeff.

 

[01:26:50] Michelle:

It's not going to be easy. Or in 15 years it's going to be more stressful and it's better to build that

Have it now. Then go through 15 years of worrying about going up to the register and whether your card's

going to clear.

 

[01:27:09] Ramit:

That's honest. I really appreciate that. Do you think you would give yourself the same advice today?

 

[01:27:16] Michelle:

Yeah, I recognize that Jeff needs to be a part of it. It's hard to let go because I want to control and I

want to know that things are going to be okay, but I recognize that it needs to happen.

 

[01:27:29] Ramit:

Cool. I always believe that people can change, and I think there will be some change here with Michelle

and Jeff. I think that Michelle hopefully feels validated, that there are some real issues here, and I

hope that she feels challenged and encouraged, that she can learn more and develop her skill. I hope that

Jeff follows through. I really want him to speak to some medical professionals and see what, if anything,

might be available to him. I think that once you have a relationship dynamic that has solidified concrete

ized, it's really, really challenging. So I'm wishing them the best. I know change is possible at all

levels, all ages, all scenarios. It just becomes harder over time. I want to give a huge thank you to our

partners at monarch. You are now making it possible for us to take the CSP and for me to dive in to the

transaction level. So many awesome insights here. Here we find that this couple spent $9,000 this year

eating out. That's actually immensely shocking and useful to know you can do the same thing using

monarch.

 

[01:28:51] Michelle:

Hear me? So first, I want to thank you and the entire team for the opportunity and for taking the time to

work through all of this with us. It was extremely helpful and honestly, it was a conversation we really

needed to have. My biggest takeaway was that I need to learn to speak up more when it comes to finances,

and it's okay for me to push Jeff to be more involved instead of feeling like I have to carry it all for

myself. I also realized we're not our parents. We're not in the same financial situation they were in,

and we don't have to carry the same beliefs or issues with money. We have the ability to save, invest,

get out of debt and build something different for our family. We're not trapped. We didn't end up making

a few adjustments to the budget to make it more realistic, but we do have a concrete plan now. We are on

track to have one of our debts paid off fully within the next three months, and then have the goal of

having our personal loan taken care of within the next 16. And then as things get paid off, we're going

to roll that into other debts to get those paid off faster. We've also agreed that when and if our

salaries increase, we're not going to let our lifestyles automatically increase with them. We want to put

that extra money towards savings and investments instead. And I guess last thing, if there's anybody

watching who thinks saving isn't for me or investing is only for rich people, I want you to know that it

is for you. You don't have to make millions of dollars. You can start where you are with what you have

and build from there. Even if it's just $10. And I think that's probably the biggest thing I'm walking

away with feeling like we can actually do this. Thanks again.

 

[01:30:24] Jeff:

So right off the bat, but one of the surprises was not knowing where our money was going, how was being

spent. Just because I was afraid I was. I had anxiety over spending and just relied on Michelle to to do

all the burden to, you know, to deal with the impact of my spending. And a lot of times, you know, you

know, how she felt and putting her in a position of where she had to be the parent because of my impulse

buying and lack of long term thinking. My biggest takeaway I need to change my behavior so we can change

the way we approach money together. Having that conversation, regardless of it, makes me anxious or not

learning more about financial planning. And it also means communicating more openly about what we want

for our future to look like. Specific changes. As we discussed, we, you know, started we scheduled that

that, you know, the Sunday's meetings to to set up goals to look at our monthly plan. We looked it over

in our short term debt management. We were able to restructure and pay off a large loan within 16. You

know, within the next three months, and then take that and then put it towards one of the bigger bills,

treating that money as if we never had it because it's going to pay our bills. I believe that's our our

biggest change is just being able to sit down and talk to each other, um, openly and having that

conversation that we've been avoiding just because we were afraid. And the goal is, again, is to break

that cycle. Talk to our kids about debt management, about not getting into debt. Plan for your future.

Um, again, we're not our parents. Um, we want to be better. We want to show our kids what it means to be

financially responsible. Amen.

 

[01:32:14] Michelle:

Team. You guys wanted to know what the biggest things that stuck with us since we talked about a month

ago? Um, and for me, it's that it's okay to speak up about everything. I don't have to quietly take

responsibility of things and really shouldn't avoid the conversations just because I think they're going

to be uncomfortable.

 

[01:32:31] Jeff:

For me, it was asking more questions, taking ownership of our finances, and knowing that we're a team and

not letting Michelle just take the burden of it all and expect that it's just going to be magic.

 

[01:32:41] Michelle:

I've also learned that sometimes you just have to pull the trigger. The plan is never going to be perfect

the first time, and that's okay. But spending forever trying to get the details right isn't the way to

1. The only way to know if it's going to work is to try it. So this the way we did this this month, was

to take our paychecks and automatically move it to retirement savings and extra debt payments so we can

get that down. This happens before we even get to touch it.

 

[01:33:07] Jeff:

Yep.

 

[01:33:07] Michelle:

And we also have a new income stream that's going to be starting soon. And we've already decided where

that money is going. Uh, we're also trying to use our bank accounts a little more intentionally. We've

got one for bills, one for groceries, and one for everything else we might have forgot about. And we know

this is our first month, and we know it's going to be trial and error. But that's the nice thing. It's we

learn as we go and we can use it. You know what didn't work this month? We could try it out next month.

 

[01:33:37] Jeff:

Yep. So you know what? Thank you again for the opportunity and the direction you gave us. It's really

helped. And I think we both feel like there's big things ahead of us.

 

[01:33:48] Michelle:

Thank you guys.