278. “We spend 108% of what we make. Are we screwed?”

Ramit unpacks how to stop overspending, take control of your money as a couple, and prepare financially for starting a family.

Ramit Sethi of I Will Teach You to Be Rich talks with Grace and Chris, who are 30 and 29 and have been married for six months. They have around $119,500 invested and unusually low housing costs, yet their finances feel chaotic and unstable. They spend more than they make, struggle to understand where the money goes, and have never had a substantive conversation about money as a couple.

The deeper problem is the dynamic they’ve fallen into. Grace handles most of the money while Chris takes a back seat, and both avoid the uncomfortable conversations they know they need to have. With children now part of their near-term plans, Ramit pushes them to confront where their habits came from and what has to change before the stakes get even higher.

In this episode we uncover:

• Why Grace feels like she’s managing their money alone
• How Chris’s avoidance keeps the same cycle going
• Why “we’ll figure it out later” keeps costing them
• How a $100 weekend budget disappeared at a baseball game
• Why 108% fixed costs are only part of the problem
• How Amazon, eating out, and social spending keep slipping through the cracks
• How inheritance, a mortgage-free home, and family support shaped their relationship with money
• How their childhoods taught them to avoid talking about money
• Why starting a family makes their financial situation more urgent
• How they can finally start making financial decisions as a team

Chapters:

(00:00:00) Introduction

(00:02:36) “I’m crying for help on a sinking ship”

(00:16:53) The baseball game that exposes their money dynamic

(00:24:22) Ramit opens up their numbers

(00:40:37) Where their $119K investments came from

(00:47:40) What their childhoods taught them about money

(00:56:46) They’ve never defined their Rich Life

(01:04:04) What happens if nothing changes?

(01:18:32) Can they make the next 15 months work?

(01:31:43) Follow-ups

 

This episode is brought to you by:

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DeleteMe | Get 20% off all consumer plans when you go to https://joindeleteme.com/ramit and use promo code RAMIT at checkout

Got a money question you’ve always wanted to ask me? Join me live on September 17th for “Why Your Budget Keeps Failing.” I’ll show you how to build a Conscious Spending Plan and answer your questions live. Join me: https://iwt.com/budget

Ever wondered what recruiters actually think when they see your application? On September 16th, Google recruiter Nicky Slavich will reveal what makes recruiters keep reading and when to apply even if you’re underqualified. RSVP free: https://iwt.com/expertsession

Apply to be coached for free on this podcast at https://iwt.com/apply

Transcript:

 

00:00:00.000 — 00:00:04.480 · Grace

I feel like I'm crying for help on a sinking ship, and no one is coming to help me.

 

00:00:04.520 — 00:00:05.640 · Ramit

Whoa. What's that number?

 

00:00:05.640 — 00:00:09.000 · Grace

Grace way do I 108%.

 

00:00:09.040 — 00:00:09.640 · Ramit

What does that tell you?

 

00:00:09.680 — 00:00:11.840 · Grace

That we spend more a month than we make.

 

00:00:11.880 — 00:00:14.760 · Ramit

You have no mortgage. Correct. So where's the money going?

 

00:00:14.800 — 00:00:20.720 · Chris

We're going out. Amazon packages are coming to the door and we're going out to eat. And then that just kind of stacks up.

 

00:00:20.720 — 00:00:28.440 · Grace

We had a conversation I need this amount in this amount for the taxes and the monthly bills from your paycheck. But then I'm watching them get beer after beer, buying other people drinks.

 

00:00:28.480 — 00:00:36.880 · Ramit

You two are skating on very thin ice. If I looked at these numbers, I go, give me a machete. I will cut this so aggressively.

 

00:00:36.880 — 00:00:40.840 · Grace

I would try and sit down and have conversations about it and he wouldn't engage in it.

 

00:00:40.840 — 00:00:45.360 · Chris

I don't know exactly how to talk about it or what's really going on.

 

00:00:45.400 — 00:00:59.210 · Ramit

You all are on the path to losing what you've got and potentially having to sell the house in the future, but that still has not made you have honest conversations about money, and you're married and talking about starting a family.

 

00:00:59.490 — 00:01:00.570 · Grace

Can I take a second?

 

00:01:03.970 — 00:02:36.420 · Ramit

How many times have you watched couples argue about money on this show? Might even be the reason that you watch. And I don't mind because I think arguing about money is natural. It is the way that most of us relate to money. And I would rather have you disagree, even argue about money, than not talk about it at all.

 

Today I'm speaking to Grace and Chris. They are 30 and 29 years old. They've been married for six months. They want to start a family, and they can't even bring themselves to have healthy conversations about money. They don't argue. They don't disagree. They simply do not talk about money at all. I'm going to pull up their conscious spending plan.

 

Assets $390,000. Investments 119 K at age 29 and 30. That's very good. Savings 7350. That's lower than I want to see. Debt is 22 K. Total net worth $494,000. Okay, so far so good, but look at the next number. Fixed costs 108%. What's going on here? Let's meet Grace and Chris. Let me take a look at the application.

 

Because Grace, you wrote something that caught my attention. You wrote. We are unable to make big life decisions like starting a family because he refuses to engage or participate in any of the money management. While I know that we are struggling and need to make changes. Do you remember writing that?

 

Mm, yeah. What was going on at the moment that you wrote that?

 

00:02:36.620 — 00:03:11.790 · Grace

That was a tough day for me, I think there. You know, we had had a really great conversation about where we wanted our where we wanted our life to go next, and that we are 100% on the same page about starting a family. But whenever I try and have conversations with Chris about it, it's usually, I know what the situation is, I just need to make more money And I feel like I'm crying for help on a sinking ship and no one is coming to help me.

 

And it feels very chaotic, which causes a lot of stress. And then when you have a partner who isn't really ready or unable to have those conversations, it makes it really hard to kind of offload and partner on things.

 

00:03:11.790 — 00:03:15.190 · Ramit

You said it feels chaotic. What feels chaotic?

 

00:03:15.510 — 00:03:23.230 · Grace

Our day to day living expenses are monthly expenses, like just the financial aspect of our life, feels chaotic and very, um, unstable.

 

00:03:23.270 — 00:03:27.470 · Ramit

Okay, Chris, what's your take on what Grace just said?

 

00:03:27.510 — 00:03:59.720 · Chris

We don't really set checklists, we don't really have plans. And I and I do take responsibility for that too, because, like, I don't know exactly what to do or how to talk about it or what's really going on. Then we're going out and doing this, and Amazon packages are coming to the door and we're going out to eat and friends, family.

 

And then that just kind of stacks up. And then we look back at it and we're kind of sinking.

 

00:03:59.840 — 00:04:02.880 · Ramit

So do you want to have the conversations about money?

 

00:04:02.920 — 00:04:05.480 · Chris

Yeah, I'm very open to it.

 

00:04:05.720 — 00:04:08.960 · Ramit

I'm open to it. Or do you want to have them.

 

00:04:08.960 — 00:04:47.080 · Chris

I want to okay. I want to she makes more money than I do in our situations. Um, so I feel like I feel like I don't have a whole lot of, like, control in it, necessarily. It's like, I, I, you know, paycheck to paycheck. She asks me for money, and I gave it to her. And that's kind of it. In my role, I just feel like I'm just kind of like the side, like the side person, you know?

 

She she asks for what she needs for our, you know, taxes and our monthly stuff. And I just kind of give it to her. And that's just kind of how it goes.

 

00:04:47.120 — 00:04:50.680 · Ramit

That's the role, as you put it. Yeah. Who created that role?

 

00:04:51.090 — 00:04:51.770 · Chris

She did.

 

00:04:51.810 — 00:05:02.210 · Grace

Well, I did, but it was because I would try and sit down and have conversations about it and he wouldn't engage in it. So I'm like, okay, well, if someone needs to figure out how to manage it, I'm going to manage it.

 

00:05:02.250 — 00:05:03.130 · Ramit

Is it working?

 

00:05:03.570 — 00:05:04.250 · Grace

Um,

 

00:05:05.610 — 00:05:24.450 · Grace

it's working in the sense, like I'm good at numbers and I know what needs to go where it's not working in the sense that I know it needs to go where. But I also am not a good person to say no to things. And we also prioritize social and like experiences beyond what we can.

 

00:05:24.850 — 00:05:26.570 · Ramit

Uh, what does that mean?

 

00:05:26.850 — 00:05:39.530 · Grace

Like we, for example, are we had family in town and they wanted to go to a baseball game. And so we're like, yeah, let's go. Knowing farewell, we had $100 to spend for the whole weekend and that was not going to cut it. Oh, and we still went.

 

00:05:39.610 — 00:05:40.410 · Ramit

How'd you pay for it?

 

00:05:40.450 — 00:05:45.250 · Grace

I pulled out of the money that we used to pay our taxes at the end of the year. Oh, yeah.

 

00:05:45.290 — 00:05:47.730 · Ramit

Okay. So are you good at it?

 

00:05:47.850 — 00:05:48.410 · Grace

No.

 

00:05:48.530 — 00:05:50.180 · Ramit

Chris. Is she good at it?

 

00:05:50.220 — 00:06:00.219 · Chris

She is very good at writing the plan. I see her do it all the time. She has her sheets out. She. This goes here, this goes here, this goes here. And

 

00:06:01.740 — 00:06:02.780 · Chris

life happens.

 

00:06:02.820 — 00:06:03.620 · Grace

Execution is.

 

00:06:03.620 — 00:06:03.900 · Chris

Poor.

 

00:06:03.940 — 00:06:05.900 · Ramit

Yeah, planning is good, execution.

 

00:06:05.940 — 00:06:06.860 · Chris

Planning is great.

 

00:06:06.860 — 00:06:09.300 · Ramit

And then. Are you skilled at money, Chris?

 

00:06:09.500 — 00:06:11.780 · Chris

No I know.

 

00:06:11.860 — 00:06:15.380 · Ramit

Okay. When was the last time you talked about money in a substantive way?

 

00:06:15.620 — 00:06:31.380 · Grace

I wouldn't say really. Ever. Uh, from my perspective, whenever I try and bring up like, hey, I want to sit down and go over this plan like, I'm stressed about this. I want I want to talk this through. This is where we're at, how it's kind of like, I know it's bad. I just need to get a new job with more money. It's fine and that'll fix it.

 

00:06:31.420 — 00:06:33.100 · Ramit

And like, what's behind that? Chris?

 

00:06:33.860 — 00:06:38.820 · Chris

I think it's on me. I think I just kind of curl into a little shell and

 

00:06:40.060 — 00:06:46.260 · Chris

don't talk about it because. Because I'm just avoiding it. Okay, I honestly. Yeah.

 

00:06:46.300 — 00:06:48.870 · Ramit

Have you ever acknowledged that before today?

 

00:06:48.990 — 00:06:51.270 · Chris

Probably not. No.

 

00:06:52.430 — 00:07:06.710 · Chris

I guess I just don't feel like stable enough. I just. Maybe it comes more of, like, an embarrassment that she talked to her. Yeah. That you're make more money than me and I'm lower than you on that pole. And.

 

00:07:07.790 — 00:07:13.670 · Chris

Yeah, it's kind of embarrassing. Being the male in the relationship. And so.

 

00:07:13.950 — 00:07:15.830 · Grace

And that's something. Sorry.

 

00:07:16.150 — 00:07:24.390 · Ramit

That's powerful. I appreciate that. Can I ask a couple questions about that? Yeah. Okay. Did you ever make more than grace?

 

00:07:25.310 — 00:07:26.070 · Chris

No.

 

00:07:26.230 — 00:07:32.950 · Ramit

And in your you mentioned it's kind of embarrassing as a man. Yeah. What's that?

 

00:07:33.990 — 00:07:39.030 · Chris

I don't know. You're. You're supposed to be the the man of the house, the taking care of everything.

 

00:07:39.230 — 00:07:41.030 · Ramit

What does that mean? Taking care of what?

 

00:07:41.190 — 00:07:47.120 · Chris

Uh, you know, bills and the house and I. The main thing is just the bills.

 

00:07:47.160 — 00:07:52.280 · Ramit

Okay, so that's what a man does. And then what does a woman do in this vision?

 

00:07:52.880 — 00:08:04.560 · Chris

Well she can. My goal would be for her to do whatever she would like to do. Oh, um, stay home, have a job, do whatever. Just whatever she would like to do.

 

00:08:04.600 — 00:08:07.680 · Ramit

You ever play a sport? Soccer. Football?

 

00:08:07.680 — 00:08:11.000 · Chris

Tennis? Yeah, I played baseball, basketball, football growing up.

 

00:08:11.040 — 00:08:14.440 · Ramit

Okay, that's a lot of sports now. I'm like, I don't know anything about baseball.

 

00:08:14.480 — 00:08:15.640 · Grace

Baseball was his main one.

 

00:08:15.640 — 00:08:16.080 · Ramit

Which one?

 

00:08:16.120 — 00:08:16.520 · Grace

Baseball.

 

00:08:16.560 — 00:08:17.040 · Chris

Baseball.

 

00:08:17.080 — 00:08:25.959 · Ramit

Okay, hold on. For football. I need to put. I know even less about football. Let me just put myself in the mindset. Okay. You all are on a baseball team. Mhm. And

 

00:08:27.160 — 00:08:39.039 · Ramit

you play first base. She's on your team and I go hey what position does she play. And your answer is I just want to do whatever she wants. Have you ever heard that set on a team.

 

00:08:39.080 — 00:08:44.490 · Chris

No. Because normally people have like certain skill sets for different positions.

 

00:08:44.530 — 00:08:52.490 · Ramit

Agreed. So she's playing shortstop or she's outfield or whatever, right? Grace, what do you think about this team metaphor?

 

00:08:52.490 — 00:09:05.570 · Grace

I like the team metaphor, and that's what I want. And that was what I was going to kind of chime in. I'm not so much of like, I make more. You make it just doesn't really matter to me. I look at it as we're a team, so more or less put them together. It's one whole.

 

00:09:05.570 — 00:09:06.890 · Ramit

Thing. Is this working?

 

00:09:07.210 — 00:09:08.210 · Chris

Probably not.

 

00:09:09.290 — 00:09:46.660 · Ramit

This is a dynamic as old as time. We've seen it many times on this very podcast. We have a husband not particularly engaged with money. Whatever she's handling it, she's better at math than I am. Then we go over to the wife. Wife is the one furiously keeping spreadsheets and doing random ways of tracking things.

 

Does she know what it all means? Not really, but she manages the day to day. And when I ask them, is it working? They both go, no, but nothing changes. They have their roles and they are seemingly intractable. How long have the two of you been together?

 

00:09:46.700 — 00:09:47.580 · Grace

Seven years.

 

00:09:47.580 — 00:09:56.300 · Ramit

Seven years? Married six months ago. Right? Yeah. Congrats. Thank you. Okay, I understand in your application there's been a discussion about starting a family. Mhm.

 

00:09:56.580 — 00:10:08.100 · Grace

We're kind of on the same page about starting the family. It really is just my in the back of my mind are like okay, we're on the same page of what we want to do, what we have in mind, what our family will look like with kids. Two.

 

00:10:08.140 — 00:10:09.060 · Chris

Two kids. Two.

 

00:10:09.100 — 00:10:11.620 · Ramit

Yeah. Cool. And is there a timeline?

 

00:10:12.100 — 00:10:12.780 · Grace

Um.

 

00:10:14.060 — 00:10:15.740 · Grace

Soon. Yeah. Within the next year.

 

00:10:15.780 — 00:10:16.660 · Chris

Cool. Soon.

 

00:10:16.700 — 00:10:18.700 · Ramit

Okay. Everybody's on the same page. Great.

 

00:10:18.740 — 00:10:38.220 · Grace

So. Right. We're on the same page. With these conversations, we have wonderful conversations. The. You know, the idea is great. But then in the back of my mind, I'm like, okay, now where is any of the money going to come from to pay for that child's food and daycare? Daycare? Oh my God. Um, things like that.

 

So that's where the disconnect gets kind of crisis.

 

00:10:38.260 — 00:10:51.990 · Chris

I think that, uh, like, we're very much on the same page. We want the same things with, like, starting a family. The biggest thing with us is we just don't bring in, like, enough money for what we want.

 

00:10:52.030 — 00:10:53.750 · Ramit

That's it. That's the problem.

 

00:10:53.830 — 00:10:57.430 · Chris

Well, it's some of it, I would say.

 

00:10:57.470 — 00:10:58.630 · Ramit

What's the rest of it?

 

00:10:58.670 — 00:11:16.670 · Chris

Just like lack of motivation. And on my side of things she like she's a doer. Mhm. I get very comfortable in my situations and I don't like change. Uh huh. I think that's like the big thing that she gets frustrated with me about.

 

00:11:16.710 — 00:11:18.350 · Ramit

That you're not motivated.

 

00:11:18.350 — 00:11:25.510 · Chris

That I just get complacent and I just get kind of stagnant in my day to day routine.

 

00:11:25.750 — 00:11:26.070 · Ramit

How do.

 

00:11:26.070 — 00:11:26.630 · Chris

You.

 

00:11:26.670 — 00:11:30.950 · Ramit

Get connected about that? How do you reconcile that?

 

00:11:30.990 — 00:11:33.150 · Chris

If I could change one thing about myself,

 

00:11:34.190 — 00:11:53.600 · Chris

that would be it. I. I hate not being comfortable, but nothing's comfortable like going out. Doing job interviews is uncomfortable. This is uncomfortable. Talking to random people is uncomfortable. But those are just things that that move you along and even make you a better person.

 

00:11:53.960 — 00:11:56.360 · Ramit

You talk to Grace about this. Have you told you this?

 

00:11:56.360 — 00:11:57.000 · Chris

No.

 

00:11:57.280 — 00:12:02.880 · Ramit

No, Grace wants to say, I've been telling you this for years. Go ahead, grace, have your moment.

 

00:12:03.040 — 00:12:15.440 · Grace

No, I, I, I have known that that is in there. And I've known that that is the thing, right? I've known that that is his thing is that he is so capable, but he just hates being uncomfortable.

 

00:12:15.440 — 00:12:29.560 · Chris

I just think that I need to stop thinking about myself, and I need to think more about our future. You would think that that would be enough to light the fire and to figure something out.

 

00:12:29.600 — 00:12:30.360 · Ramit

But.

 

00:12:30.600 — 00:12:32.880 · Chris

I'm just kind of stagnant sometimes.

 

00:12:33.760 — 00:12:41.050 · Ramit

Is this a thing where it's like, hmm, this isn't working. Let's have kids. That'll fix it. No.

 

00:12:44.810 — 00:13:00.450 · Grace

I believe in him so deeply, and I know he's so capable of, like, moving on to the next thing. But he just gets in his own way of his own initiative. And I think that's what holds him back is more of himself. Because it's not that he's not capable. It's not that he cannot move on to the next job or the next thing.

 

00:13:00.570 — 00:13:07.970 · Ramit

Do you find yourself, um, encouraging him, giving him advice? You know, if you just did this or if you say this at work, that kind of thing.

 

00:13:08.010 — 00:13:38.820 · Grace

We're navigating that, I think, um, and that's something that we actively work on outside of here in our own therapy. Um, because, yes, because I am a helper. I want to be a helper. And so I, I will admit, full stop. You watch me do it. I love to fill in his gaps because I know what I think he's trying to get at, but not.

 

And I need, I know I need to control that better in myself. Um, but I, I don't like to see people struggle or, um, have people be uncomfortable. And so when someone I love is struggling and uncomfortable, then I want to step in.

 

00:13:38.860 — 00:13:40.780 · Ramit

What if I told you that I love that.

 

00:13:42.460 — 00:13:50.460 · Grace

It's good to struggle and be uncomfortable? And that's where growth happens. And I know that. But it's easy for me to do that in my career because I do that all the time.

 

00:13:50.460 — 00:13:51.060 · Ramit

Which is.

 

00:13:51.060 — 00:13:52.500 · Grace

I'm a therapist, so.

 

00:13:52.740 — 00:13:57.380 · Ramit

Okay, amazing. And and then you are in therapy as well. Couples therapy. Yeah. Okay.

 

00:13:57.420 — 00:13:58.380 · Grace

And individual. Yeah.

 

00:13:58.420 — 00:13:58.900 · Ramit

Amazing.

 

00:13:58.940 — 00:13:59.940 · Grace

All the things.

 

00:13:59.980 — 00:14:01.620 · Ramit

Okay. And Chris, what's your career?

 

00:14:01.860 — 00:14:05.100 · Chris

I'm a warehouse manager for an industrial sales company.

 

00:14:05.140 — 00:14:12.820 · Ramit

Great. Okay. Is there a recent conversation where you can recall where you clashed or disagreed about money?

 

00:14:12.860 — 00:14:13.580 · Grace

100%.

 

00:14:13.580 — 00:14:14.340 · Ramit

Go ahead.

 

00:14:14.500 — 00:14:51.790 · Grace

Uh, it was just recently we were at that baseball game, and everybody knows you've wanted. You want a beer at a baseball game? You're running about $25 a beer. Um, and we had a conversation prior to going into the weekend of like, hey, I need this amount in this amount for the taxes and the monthly bills from your paycheck.

 

You've got 100 left to spend for the weekend. Like just know that. And we had that conversation. And then we get to the baseball game and I'm watching and I want him to have fun. I want him to have fun. But then I'm watching him get beer after beer, buying other people drinks, and I'm like, okay, hundred dollars is long gone.

 

So what now? We're supposed to go to dinner and do other things with this family all weekend? Where is that coming from?

 

00:14:51.790 — 00:14:54.830 · Ramit

Where was the actual conversation? Where did that happen?

 

00:14:55.190 — 00:14:56.270 · Grace

Miller Park.

 

00:14:56.630 — 00:14:56.910 · Ramit

Oh.

 

00:14:57.390 — 00:14:57.910 · Grace

Oh yes.

 

00:14:57.950 — 00:14:58.470 · Ramit

At the game.

 

00:14:58.510 — 00:14:58.990 · Grace

Aha.

 

00:14:59.030 — 00:15:01.910 · Ramit

Okay. So can we go through that. Can we actually recreate it?

 

00:15:01.910 — 00:15:02.910 · Grace

I was like, hey.

 

00:15:03.550 — 00:15:04.590 · Ramit

Uh, talk to him.

 

00:15:04.870 — 00:15:14.230 · Grace

Hey, that like that's your fourth beer. Like, uh, where's the money coming from for that? Like, you know, we had $100. And how are we going to pay for dinner tomorrow with your family?

 

00:15:14.230 — 00:15:19.070 · Chris

I don't know, my family's in town, and we're just having fun, so we'll figure it out later.

 

00:15:19.110 — 00:15:27.910 · Grace

And then I got up and walked away because I was like, I'm not gonna. This isn't going to go the way I want. We're not going to have a productive conversation. I'm just going to go sit by my in-laws. So I moved seats.

 

00:15:27.910 — 00:15:31.960 · Ramit

What happened later as you went to dinner and paid for more things.

 

00:15:32.080 — 00:15:36.200 · Grace

Um, that's where I pulled from our annual funds.

 

00:15:36.240 — 00:15:40.680 · Ramit

You didn't talk to each other at dinner about. Are we paying and how are we going to pay?

 

00:15:40.720 — 00:15:45.200 · Grace

Nope. I had just moved some money and was like, well, I'll figure it out later.

 

00:15:45.320 — 00:15:50.280 · Ramit

Okay, so that's interesting. So, Chris, you said we'll figure it out, right?

 

00:15:50.320 — 00:15:50.720 · Chris

Yeah.

 

00:15:50.760 — 00:15:53.480 · Ramit

And then who's we is going to figure it out.

 

00:15:54.640 — 00:15:55.040 · Grace

Yeah.

 

00:15:55.320 — 00:16:03.440 · Ramit

You're gesturing at her grace. Grace is going to figure it out. So really it's you're going to figure it out later. Yeah. Grace, where did you pull money from?

 

00:16:03.480 — 00:16:29.130 · Grace

We. So we own our home. So the money that we paid, we don't pay a mortgage, but we have, like, the taxes at the end of the year. And so, um, I have, we have like a short money market account. And so what I do is I collect that money each month and then I put it in there to grow. So this is a terrible way to think about it.

 

And I know that this is a pattern, but I pull from that money because I'm like, well, I can just hope that the short money market grows enough to make up for the 150. I had to borrow from it. Oh, yeah.

 

00:16:29.170 — 00:16:29.850 · Ramit

Does it work?

 

00:16:29.890 — 00:16:30.650 · Grace

I don't know.

 

00:16:30.690 — 00:16:31.610 · Ramit

Haven't checked.

 

00:16:31.930 — 00:16:33.330 · Grace

Haven't checked. Hope it works.

 

00:16:33.450 — 00:16:36.370 · Ramit

I love the answer. I love it. You didn't even say no. You go I don't know.

 

00:16:36.410 — 00:16:37.410 · Grace

I have no idea.

 

00:16:37.450 — 00:16:38.210 · Ramit

We just.

 

00:16:38.410 — 00:16:39.970 · Grace

Pray it. It's working, I don't know.

 

00:16:40.490 — 00:16:50.610 · Ramit

Why not just tell Chris? All right. Hey, listen, I understand you bought the beers. I wouldn't have done it. You did it. You got to figure out where the money's going to come from.

 

00:16:50.610 — 00:16:56.810 · Grace

I don't know, though. I get done, I get anxious that it won't be fixed, and then it'll be a problem I have to fix later.

 

00:16:56.850 — 00:16:58.210 · Ramit

What if he has to fix it?

 

00:16:58.250 — 00:17:20.290 · Grace

That would be lovely if I would not have, like, a full anxiety freak out about it. I'm a very like. Like I said, anxious kind of type A. I don't know that I trust him to fix it because I don't know that he understands. He's not sat down with me to look at any of the numbers or anything of what I'm doing. So I guess my thought is like, how could he fix a problem that he doesn't even know exists because he doesn't know the foundation of the problem?

 

00:17:20.530 — 00:17:26.420 · Ramit

Maybe if you just keep figuring it out yourself, then one day he'll magically get it. No no.

 

00:17:26.420 — 00:17:27.660 · Grace

No no.

 

00:17:27.660 — 00:17:28.380 · Ramit

Chris.

 

00:17:28.540 — 00:17:28.900 · Chris

Yeah.

 

00:17:28.940 — 00:17:29.580 · Grace

No, no.

 

00:17:29.620 — 00:17:31.940 · Grace

And this is the pattern, right? I know the pattern.

 

00:17:31.940 — 00:17:33.900 · Grace

But I cannot seem to change it.

 

00:17:33.940 — 00:17:42.740 · Ramit

Can you tell me how money flows in your relationship? Where does the money go? You both work. What happens to the money, then, grace?

 

00:17:42.860 — 00:18:03.540 · Grace

Um, yeah. So each. So I get paid once a month. Um, he gets paid weekly. Like, my paycheck immediately goes towards our monthly expenses, and that's pretty much it. So mine. I don't really have any of after like mine is put in and immediately distributed. Um, and then his each week is distributed differently depending.

 

And then also out of his paycheck is our gas and grocery money.

 

00:18:03.580 — 00:18:09.460 · Ramit

You mentioned his incomes variable, right. What if he didn't make enough to cover groceries? What would you do?

 

00:18:09.500 — 00:18:19.380 · Grace

I try to prioritize making sure those annual and monthly bills are paid, and then I lower the amount of money we have for groceries. So you're just eating ramen out of the pantry?

 

00:18:19.420 — 00:18:20.380 · Ramit

Has that happened?

 

00:18:20.460 — 00:18:23.060 · Chris

Yeah, it starts to taste boring after a little bit.

 

00:18:23.260 — 00:18:29.990 · Ramit

Which kind of ramen do you get? The chicken top ramen. The the orange one. Yeah, I love that. It's good. It's good, it's good.

 

00:18:30.230 — 00:18:32.630 · Grace

And I've mastered it in a microwave, so.

 

00:18:32.710 — 00:18:33.790 · Ramit

Oh, okay. Wow.

 

00:18:33.830 — 00:18:36.590 · Grace

Um, but no, it's it's not ideal.

 

00:18:36.670 — 00:18:40.150 · Ramit

Um, is your money joint or is it separate?

 

00:18:40.150 — 00:18:46.190 · Grace

So it comes in separate? Obviously. But then he just transfers over to me and I disperse it between our accounts. Okay.

 

00:18:46.230 — 00:18:48.630 · Ramit

So do you have any joint accounts?

 

00:18:48.670 — 00:19:01.070 · Grace

Yes. It's been on a hiatus for a little bit, so we have not been able to put anything in it for a while. But that's usually like, hey, I'm, you know, let's put this much in and he'll send it. We both have access to it so we can like, send the money into it.

 

00:19:01.110 — 00:19:08.910 · Ramit

Okay. I noticed that when I'm asking about the account flows. Grace. You're talking. Chris has been silent for quite a while. Chris. What's going on with you?

 

00:19:08.990 — 00:19:17.350 · Chris

I think just because she's just more knowledgeable and that I just. I don't really know what I'm doing. So for the most part.

 

00:19:17.630 — 00:19:20.950 · Ramit

Okay. What do you notice about these roles that each of you are playing?

 

00:19:20.950 — 00:19:28.400 · Chris

It sounds very individual to me. Not. There's like no teamwork. It's like, oh, hey, I'm going to do this, okay.

 

00:19:28.440 — 00:19:29.720 · Grace

They're very passive.

 

00:19:29.760 — 00:19:30.320 · Ramit

Yeah.

 

00:19:30.360 — 00:19:33.560 · Grace

There's not much actual interaction.

 

00:19:33.640 — 00:19:34.200 · Ramit

Why?

 

00:19:34.400 — 00:19:34.960 · Chris

I don't know.

 

00:19:35.000 — 00:19:35.720 · Grace

Avoidance.

 

00:19:35.760 — 00:19:36.360 · Chris

Yeah.

 

00:19:36.400 — 00:19:39.760 · Grace

Avoiding argument. Avoiding disagreement.

 

00:19:40.040 — 00:19:42.720 · Ramit

Yeah. What realizations are you having right now?

 

00:19:42.760 — 00:20:00.120 · Grace

I thought I had a handle on it more than I even did. And now, talking through this, I realized I'm much more passive than I thought I was. I try to be the planner. I try to be the executor and engage others. But the follow through isn't great. It's kind of just in the clouds. Yeah. Hoping that it works out.

 

00:20:00.160 — 00:20:01.320 · Ramit

Mhm. Chris.

 

00:20:01.720 — 00:20:04.040 · Chris

Well I have no idea what I'm doing.

 

00:20:04.440 — 00:20:16.920 · Ramit

Okay. All right. So there's work to be done. Yeah. Let's put it that way. Mhm. Okay. I'm going to put the conscious spending plan up on screen before we look at the numbers. What was it like to do the CSP together.

 

00:20:17.080 — 00:20:18.119 · Chris

I kind of

 

00:20:19.160 — 00:20:21.930 · Chris

took a backseat a little bit, and she kind of.

 

00:20:22.410 — 00:20:23.490 · Ramit

She filled out the numbers.

 

00:20:23.530 — 00:20:25.290 · Chris

As usual, you know, she.

 

00:20:25.370 — 00:20:56.250 · Ramit

Did you pull out the computer, Grace, and start putting the numbers in? Yes. Aha. And did you ask him for input? No. Let me tell you what I think you interpreted the assignment to be. Even though it's spelled out grace you interpreted the assignment to be. We got to fill out these numbers. I know the numbers, so I'm going to fill it out.

 

Hey, Chris, come sit down and watch. But I'm going to fill it out. And Chris, you interpret it as, oh there's some money thing that has to be done. And so like yeah like yeah she's got it. She'll figure it out. And yeah I'm here. Okay.

 

00:20:56.290 — 00:20:57.530 · Grace

We misunderstood the assignment.

 

00:20:57.570 — 00:20:59.170 · Ramit

What is the actual assignment?

 

00:20:59.210 — 00:21:07.410 · Grace

To sit down and do this together and really look at these numbers, ask each other questions about things you don't understand or something that might not make sense. Communicate.

 

00:21:07.450 — 00:21:08.010 · Ramit

Next.

 

00:21:08.050 — 00:21:09.610 · Grace

Yeah, yeah.

 

00:21:09.650 — 00:21:43.700 · Ramit

Communicate. I don't care if one of the numbers is 50% wrong. We could fix the math. But you did not talk about it at all. Know, and I think this is true of different parts of your financial life. So this is something that we have to work towards okay. And the CSP is just easy black and white math. But it provides a very powerful instruction on how couples complete it.

 

Okay. Let's take a look at the numbers. Grace, can you read off the words in bold and then the numbers next to it for this entire box, please?

 

00:21:43.740 — 00:21:59.780 · Grace

Um, assets 390,000. Investments 119,500. Savings 7350. Debt 22,483. Total net worth 494,367.

 

00:21:59.820 — 00:22:01.540 · Ramit

Okay. What do you think about the numbers?

 

00:22:01.820 — 00:22:05.220 · Grace

Fine, I think so. The assets, a lot of that is our home.

 

00:22:05.220 — 00:22:07.300 · Ramit

Do you feel anything looking at these numbers?

 

00:22:07.300 — 00:22:09.300 · Grace

I'm disappointed that my debt is that high.

 

00:22:09.380 — 00:22:12.340 · Ramit

Okay, Chris, what do you think about these numbers?

 

00:22:12.380 — 00:22:12.940 · Chris

I like.

 

00:22:12.980 — 00:22:13.460 · Ramit

The.

 

00:22:14.060 — 00:22:27.110 · Chris

The investment number. Savings is just low because we don't bring in enough monthly to save. But the debt, the debt's kind of a big one there.

 

00:22:27.390 — 00:22:35.150 · Ramit

Okay, let's go down to the income this time. Chris, can you read off your combined gross monthly income?

 

00:22:35.630 — 00:22:38.590 · Chris

Uh, 9377. Okay, cool.

 

00:22:38.590 — 00:22:48.310 · Ramit

So that means the two of you combined make about $112,000 per year. What is a couple who makes $112,000 due with their money living in the area that you live?

 

00:22:48.550 — 00:22:54.630 · Grace

The median income. We are on the low side even with that 112 for the area that we live in.

 

00:22:54.990 — 00:23:02.910 · Ramit

Um, can I ask you to guess what the median income in your neighborhood is?

 

00:23:03.350 — 00:23:08.830 · Grace

I feel like it's around 175 to 180. Okay. Like per household. Right. Are you talking per individual?

 

00:23:08.870 — 00:23:09.510 · Ramit

Per household?

 

00:23:09.550 — 00:23:11.110 · Grace

Yeah. 175, 180.

 

00:23:11.150 — 00:23:11.510 · Ramit

Okay.

 

00:23:11.550 — 00:23:14.190 · Chris

I think about like 150, 150.

 

00:23:14.240 — 00:23:15.520 · Ramit

You know the real number.

 

00:23:15.640 — 00:23:17.080 · Grace

I'm going to be really embarrassed.

 

00:23:17.080 — 00:23:18.840 · Ramit

Probably 113,000.

 

00:23:18.880 — 00:23:19.680 · Grace

You're lying.

 

00:23:19.720 — 00:23:20.200 · Ramit

No.

 

00:23:20.280 — 00:23:21.320 · Grace

Oh, wow. Wow.

 

00:23:21.480 — 00:23:22.480 · Ramit

What does that tell you? Chris?

 

00:23:22.480 — 00:23:23.440 · Grace

I'm stunned.

 

00:23:23.520 — 00:23:27.080 · Chris

Sounds like we're not good with our money choices.

 

00:23:28.040 — 00:23:30.280 · Ramit

How? Connect the dots for me. How did you come to that?

 

00:23:30.320 — 00:23:38.040 · Chris

The. What did you call it? The average. Median? The median is kind of right on par with what ours is.

 

00:23:38.080 — 00:23:38.680 · Ramit

Mhm.

 

00:23:38.720 — 00:23:42.920 · Chris

And so but yet we're struggling. Yes. This much.

 

00:23:42.960 — 00:23:45.560 · Ramit

Yes. No kids. Yeah.

 

00:23:45.600 — 00:23:46.040 · Grace

Yeah.

 

00:23:46.080 — 00:23:50.760 · Ramit

And we're going to go into some of your other numbers as well. Grace what is occurring to you?

 

00:23:51.080 — 00:23:52.320 · Grace

I'm just shocked.

 

00:23:52.600 — 00:23:53.080 · Ramit

Why?

 

00:23:53.120 — 00:24:07.120 · Grace

Because it feels impossible to live where we live and make ends meet with our income. But clearly, everyone else can seem to do it. So there must be patterns and behaviors and choices that we're making that are not helping that.

 

00:24:07.440 — 00:24:11.280 · Ramit

Let's keep going down the list. Fix. Whoa! What's that number? Grace.

 

00:24:11.970 — 00:24:13.370 · Grace

Way do I? What is it?

 

00:24:13.530 — 00:24:16.130 · Ramit

Weight 108%. What does that tell you?

 

00:24:16.530 — 00:24:19.050 · Grace

That we spend more a month than we make.

 

00:24:19.090 — 00:24:20.410 · Ramit

On just fixed costs.

 

00:24:20.810 — 00:24:21.970 · Grace

Yeah, it's not great.

 

00:24:22.010 — 00:24:37.010 · Ramit

You spend more than you make every single month. It is simply a matter of time until you are broke beyond broke, until you lose it all. When you walked in here, what did you think the severity of the situation was? Chris? Did you know?

 

00:24:37.130 — 00:24:38.690 · Chris

I knew it was bad.

 

00:24:38.730 — 00:24:39.970 · Ramit

Did you know what that meant?

 

00:24:40.010 — 00:24:44.050 · Chris

Enough, I knew enough what it meant. Oh, I think so.

 

00:24:44.090 — 00:24:52.090 · Ramit

Then did you then accordingly say to grace, we have to change everything. We have to light a fire. We have to red alert. We have to stop everything we're doing.

 

00:24:52.130 — 00:24:55.170 · Chris

No, I guess I didn't fully understand that then.

 

00:24:55.290 — 00:25:01.490 · Ramit

I feel like that's kind of a pattern here. And, Grace, did you understand what 108% meant?

 

00:25:01.530 — 00:25:02.170 · Grace

Yes,

 

00:25:03.290 — 00:25:09.650 · Grace

I understood it in the way of. I know what it meant, but did not know how to take action. I don't I don't know how to fix that.

 

00:25:09.650 — 00:25:18.380 · Ramit

But you didn't say to Chris. Red alert. We're not doing this anymore. We're not going to spend this. Here's what's going to happen. This is what's going to happen. I am becoming coach of this team now.

 

00:25:18.740 — 00:25:24.940 · Grace

I think I try, but maybe not hard enough or not as intense because I avoid conflict or disagreement.

 

00:25:24.940 — 00:25:27.340 · Ramit

You two are skating on very thin ice.

 

00:25:28.700 — 00:25:45.260 · Ramit

You're close to losing a lot. You have one months worth of savings here, but that's still has not made you have honest conversations about money. You are still tiptoeing around each other and you're married and talking about starting a family.

 

00:25:45.300 — 00:25:45.940 · Grace

Yeah.

 

00:25:46.660 — 00:26:49.230 · Ramit

You might notice that I am pushing them. I'm doing this for a very specific reason. They are oblivious to the severity of the situation and they are used to dealing in comfort. People will fill out applications. They will go through months of screening, they will fly here to meet me. And then suddenly, when presented with the reality of the situation, they will often revert back to the way they were.

 

They will start to minimize. Oh, it's actually not that bad. We're actually fine. We just need a budget. I don't let that happen because if you went out of your way, you applied. It takes a lot of courage. I'm not going to let you go home just so that you feel comfortable. My invisible script is not. Comfort is awesome all the time.

 

My invisible script is sometimes uncomfortable. Conversations are amazing. That is why I am pushing them to see what's really going on here. And I'm warning you right now, I'm going to keep pushing. In fact, I'm going to push harder and it's going to happen. For this entire episode. How do you own a home at this young of an age?

 

00:26:49.630 — 00:26:56.830 · Grace

Um, I'm very fortunate. My grandma and I buy property together, and so she and I own our home together. So we bought it in cash.

 

00:26:57.070 — 00:27:14.440 · Ramit

Oh, you bought the house that you live in now? In cash, correct. All right, so your property taxes are $1,067 a month. Wow. That's low, which means your housing costs are 11.3% of your gross income. That's amazing. Super low. Yeah. Which then raises the question.

 

00:27:14.520 — 00:27:15.520 · Grace

Why is this happening?

 

00:27:15.560 — 00:27:24.440 · Ramit

Let's take a look at the rest. Utilities are 412. Insurance is 922. That's pretty high.

 

00:27:24.520 — 00:27:43.200 · Grace

Yeah. So what what had happened was he had a subsidy that was given to him. And we, being naive and understanding how marriage works, didn't realize that as soon as we got married we would have to back pay any of the subsidy. And then the the premium was skyrocketed. So but now we're locked into a premium that we didn't realize what skyrocketed, if that makes sense, until the end of the year.

 

00:27:43.200 — 00:27:44.520 · Ramit

And then what's going to happen?

 

00:27:44.840 — 00:27:50.240 · Chris

Yeah, I'm just kind of hoping to find a new land, a new job that has insurance.

 

00:27:50.280 — 00:27:54.240 · Ramit

Okay. Car payments 502. Yep. That's includes gas.

 

00:27:54.320 — 00:27:55.080 · Grace

Uh, no.

 

00:27:55.200 — 00:27:56.440 · Ramit

Uh, where's the gas?

 

00:27:57.200 — 00:28:11.770 · Grace

The gas is in our grocery and gas amount, and it's 600. And we do not have an exact amount of what we pay for gas versus groceries? I just put 600 in that account. That's just, I guess, something I've never calculated how much I spend in gas and how often I feel okay.

 

00:28:11.930 — 00:28:33.010 · Ramit

I think it's probably higher than that. I always estimate higher because I want to be conservative in my planning. I never want to get to the end of a month or a year and oh, money. Never. If anything, I want to have extra money. So I always am conservative in my estimates. So if this says 600, what do you think it realistically is?

 

00:28:33.250 — 00:28:34.570 · Grace

Um, 800.

 

00:28:34.610 — 00:28:35.250 · Ramit

Yeah.

 

00:28:35.290 — 00:28:38.610 · Grace

Yeah, maybe 800 plus gas. Right now where we live is insane.

 

00:28:39.090 — 00:28:43.930 · Ramit

I think it's 900 at least. Okay. I think it's probably higher, but I'm going to go there. You spend it on a credit card?

 

00:28:43.970 — 00:28:51.810 · Grace

Uh, no. A debit card we don't use. We don't. The debt we have is from credit card debt. So we have ceased all credit card use. So we are not.

 

00:28:51.850 — 00:29:00.090 · Ramit

People in credit card debt use debit cards. Okay. All right. We were going to get their debt payments at $1,218 a month. How much credit card debt do you have?

 

00:29:00.130 — 00:29:01.410 · Grace

It's all a credit card debt.

 

00:29:01.650 — 00:29:03.780 · Ramit

That 22 credit card debt.

 

00:29:03.820 — 00:29:04.260 · Grace

Correct.

 

00:29:04.300 — 00:29:05.500 · Ramit

What'd you spend it on?

 

00:29:05.500 — 00:29:32.940 · Grace

Our house. Getting married. Um, fixes to the house. Like when we moved in, we had a pipe burst. Then we had an HVAC issue. Then we had a bathroom flood. So we spent that on the having to remodel the bathroom so that. That's kind of old debt. I mean, it's been there a while. So what I've done is I've moved it to cards that have like a 0% for X amount of months.

 

And I'm trying that that debt number payoff plan is to try and get that debt paid off within that increment. So I'm not being charged the interest.

 

00:29:33.020 — 00:29:34.100 · Ramit

Is it going to happen?

 

00:29:34.260 — 00:29:36.580 · Grace

Um, if we can stick with that 112. Yes.

 

00:29:36.620 — 00:29:40.180 · Ramit

Okay. That's a good answer. How much is left on the car?

 

00:29:40.820 — 00:29:47.660 · Grace

Um, his car is paid off. The 502 is my car. Um, it's a newer car. We got it within the last six months.

 

00:29:47.700 — 00:29:48.660 · Ramit

What'd you get?

 

00:29:48.900 — 00:29:50.820 · Grace

A Ford Bronco sport.

 

00:29:50.860 — 00:29:53.340 · Ramit

Ford Bronco sport. Like an SUV?

 

00:29:53.380 — 00:29:54.580 · Grace

Yeah, like a little.

 

00:29:55.140 — 00:29:55.940 · Ramit

How much did that cost?

 

00:29:55.980 — 00:30:00.910 · Grace

Love that car. 30. 30,000. 30, 2000.

 

00:30:00.950 — 00:30:04.510 · Ramit

What's the real number? The way you say it made me question that.

 

00:30:04.630 — 00:30:12.390 · Grace

I'm not really sure. I know, I know that that's my monthly payment, and I'm on, like a 72 month or something or other.

 

00:30:12.590 — 00:30:13.790 · Ramit

Why'd you do that?

 

00:30:14.310 — 00:30:17.910 · Grace

Lack of knowledge sounded good to me at the time.

 

00:30:18.110 — 00:30:23.430 · Ramit

Uh, I note that the car payment is not included in your debt.

 

00:30:23.470 — 00:30:26.070 · Grace

Oh, that would just be a misstep on not realizing that.

 

00:30:26.110 — 00:30:30.990 · Ramit

Okay, let's fix it right now. So if it's 22 plus roughly $30,000.

 

00:30:31.030 — 00:30:32.030 · Grace

Yeah. Roughly 30.

 

00:30:32.070 — 00:30:36.150 · Ramit

Let's make it 52. Okay, pets. What is this number?

 

00:30:37.030 — 00:30:41.310 · Grace

It's a lot of different things. Um, I can parse it all out for you, but it's a lot.

 

00:30:41.350 — 00:30:43.350 · Ramit

$735 a month on pets.

 

00:30:43.390 — 00:30:57.830 · Grace

Yes, we have the cutest little dachshunds in the world, but one of them has chronic two. Okay, chronic pancreatitis. And so he has a very special diet and probiotic and medicine that he has to take in order to be okay.

 

00:30:57.870 — 00:31:07.400 · Ramit

All right. Subscriptions are at 167, which include I like that you listed these off Spotify streaming fitness iCloud Coopers. What's Cooper's.

 

00:31:07.440 — 00:31:08.520 · Grace

Cooper talk.

 

00:31:08.880 — 00:31:09.320 · Ramit

Huh.

 

00:31:09.360 — 00:31:13.640 · Grace

It's a winery. It's $20 a month. Okay. But it's. Yeah.

 

00:31:13.680 — 00:31:19.320 · Ramit

All right. You're in for a quite a bit of changes under my guidance. Hey, buddy. What's that?

 

00:31:19.360 — 00:31:22.720 · Grace

That's our dog. Like, if your dog gets lost, it's their little tracker.

 

00:31:22.760 — 00:31:32.200 · Ramit

Okay. Ring camera, Amazon Prime. Fine. Um, grace wellness, which includes a GLP one and hair extensions. Yeah. Okay. And that's 662 per month.

 

00:31:32.240 — 00:31:32.680 · Grace

Yeah.

 

00:31:32.720 — 00:32:05.570 · Ramit

Cleaning service and therapy is 280 a month. And then miscellaneous, which CSP automatically adds 15% is 903. I actually think that is completely accurate and potentially even under, because of all the things you mentioned that you are not currently counting. All right. So you all are at $7,868 per month.

 

And just to reflect, you have less than one month's worth of savings as a couple with no kids. Very low housing costs who make $112,000 gross per year. Chris, what are you hearing right now.

 

00:32:05.890 — 00:32:09.330 · Chris

That we both might have a little bit of a lack of knowledge? Yes.

 

00:32:09.370 — 00:32:16.370 · Ramit

Um, because you've said multiple times today. Well, she's really smart at this stuff. She knows these numbers. Does this sound like that?

 

00:32:16.490 — 00:32:17.170 · Chris

No.

 

00:32:17.490 — 00:32:19.250 · Grace

This is blind leading the blind here.

 

00:32:19.290 — 00:32:22.450 · Ramit

I think that's a really apt way. Yeah, not to be insulting.

 

00:32:22.490 — 00:32:23.970 · Grace

No, I feel that way.

 

00:32:24.010 — 00:32:41.050 · Ramit

Yeah. Avoiders do this. They use a series of conscious and unconscious techniques to avoid engaging with money. And one of them is they say, well, my partner's just good at this. They're smart. I'm not so good with numbers. You are using that phrase to perpetuate this dynamic.

 

00:32:41.170 — 00:32:41.850 · Chris

Yeah.

 

00:32:42.290 — 00:33:05.260 · Ramit

Now, at the same time, grace, the fact that you've been unable to say, I don't know what I'm doing to actually even acknowledge that, like what I'm doing. I'm moving money around 0% transfers 72 months for a car loan. But even acknowledging that activity is not the same as results. But you've got to be able to acknowledge it and then ask for help.

 

00:33:05.300 — 00:33:16.660 · Grace

I've tried and it's usually met with, I know I just need to get a different job and then the conversation goes nowhere. So that's why I'm here. I'm like, I don't know. I don't know what else to do anymore. I don't know how to ask for help. I don't.

 

00:33:16.700 — 00:33:36.980 · Ramit

I'm glad you're here. I'm going to try to help unravel some of this, but I just want to point out the language you're even using. I've tried to have the conversation for something as important as we are going broke. I don't try anything. I make it happen. Chris, are you hearing this? What's going through your head right now.

 

00:33:37.380 — 00:33:57.790 · Chris

That I need to stop shoving it all on her and start. And I need to start taking responsibility. How would you do it? But instead of just sitting behind her, maybe saying, oh, I let me at least try and handle this myself, or let me do it with you instead of just sitting there and watching.

 

00:33:57.830 — 00:33:59.790 · Ramit

What about actually doing it?

 

00:33:59.830 — 00:34:02.510 · Chris

Yeah, give it a try. See how it goes.

 

00:34:02.670 — 00:34:55.760 · Ramit

You all mentioned you want to have kids, right? Yeah. When you're a kid, um, tries to, you know, read. Are they going to be good at reading? No, they're going to be horrible. They can't read a single letter. They don't know anything. So are you going to say, ah. Uh, mommy's better at reading, so let her do it.

 

No, no, that'd be absurd. Yeah, yeah, we do it all the time as adults with money. We are bad at money when we start doing it. Of course we are. Like anything else. Playing basketball, cooking any of it. Now, cooking. You might be able to get away with it because you're just like, ah, we don't care, Ramon. Whatever.

 

Okay, fine. But money is unlike that. Money isn't like we're going to have to eat ramen noodles. Money is. We can't afford to have children, or we might become homeless even though we own our house.

 

00:34:56.919 — 00:34:59.960 · Ramit

That's why I think it's different. What's your assessment?

 

00:35:00.000 — 00:35:02.080 · Chris

I need to make make some changes.

 

00:35:02.280 — 00:35:03.880 · Grace

Yeah, this is pretty dire.

 

00:35:07.160 — 00:35:08.560 · Ramit

Investments are at zero.

 

00:35:09.080 — 00:35:12.840 · Grace

Which zero added to the ones that are there. Sorry.

 

00:35:12.880 — 00:35:18.000 · Ramit

Yeah. You do contribute $136 a month to a 401 K.

 

00:35:18.040 — 00:35:26.480 · Grace

Yes. And then we have maxed out his Roth IRAs for this year. So we put in 7500 for that. So we're.

 

00:35:26.480 — 00:35:27.160 · Ramit

Not. The money come.

 

00:35:27.160 — 00:35:33.880 · Grace

From the passing of my grandmother. I inherited some things until that's what a lot of our investments are, is o money.

 

00:35:34.000 — 00:35:36.960 · Ramit

I was wondering, okay, so how much did you inherit?

 

00:35:37.000 — 00:35:38.800 · Grace

I think it was like 80.

 

00:35:38.840 — 00:35:41.520 · Ramit

And you put some of it into investments.

 

00:35:41.880 — 00:35:45.760 · Grace

Okay. And then started a retirement because he doesn't have any. Through his career, I see.

 

00:35:45.840 — 00:35:47.120 · Ramit

And the house.

 

00:35:47.920 — 00:35:50.050 · Grace

Uh, we own joint tenancy. So it's.

 

00:35:50.250 — 00:35:50.850 · Ramit

So false to.

 

00:35:50.850 — 00:35:51.570 · Grace

You. Yeah. False.

 

00:35:51.930 — 00:35:56.770 · Ramit

Okay. So you had 80. Where did the rest of this investments of 119 come from?

 

00:35:56.810 — 00:36:01.410 · Grace

Um, that's including my retirement that I already have and then his retirement that we put in.

 

00:36:01.410 — 00:36:06.770 · Ramit

So a lot of the investments. Well, it's real money. And it's your money. It came from an inheritance.

 

00:36:06.810 — 00:36:07.450 · Grace

Correct.

 

00:36:07.490 — 00:36:08.650 · Ramit

What does that tell you?

 

00:36:09.890 — 00:36:33.370 · Ramit

You're not properly investing? No, not for your income at $112,000. And we can see that because you're contributing zero per month post-tax going on to savings at zero as well. And then finally guilt free spending at -13%, which we know is not true because you all are spending guilt free spending, including ball games.

 

What else do you spend money on?

 

00:36:33.370 — 00:36:34.210 · Chris

Dinners?

 

00:36:34.250 — 00:36:41.770 · Grace

Yeah, his family's very social. So we go to a lot of events, like we just spend a lot of time with his family and they like to do things. So we go here.

 

00:36:41.970 — 00:36:43.410 · Ramit

Ball game, eat out. What else?

 

00:36:43.450 — 00:36:44.450 · Grace

Wine walks.

 

00:36:44.570 — 00:36:46.730 · Ramit

What's that? What's a wine walk?

 

00:36:46.770 — 00:36:47.380 · Chris

It's like.

 

00:36:48.100 — 00:36:49.500 · Grace

Really fun. They don't have them here.

 

00:36:49.540 — 00:36:49.940 · Ramit

No.

 

00:36:49.980 — 00:36:59.500 · Grace

Like they're so cool towns. You literally get a lanyard with a wine, like a wine glass around your neck, and you get to go between shops and they give you a little taste of wine, and it's really coolest thing.

 

00:36:59.540 — 00:37:01.580 · Ramit

And does it cost to get in or do you pay?

 

00:37:01.620 — 00:37:02.860 · Grace

Yeah. It's like 50 bucks.

 

00:37:02.900 — 00:37:06.660 · Ramit

All right. Y'all are 29 and 30. I wouldn't blame you for going out and having fun.

 

00:37:06.700 — 00:37:07.700 · Grace

We enjoy them.

 

00:37:07.820 — 00:37:09.420 · Chris

All right, I have fun.

 

00:37:09.820 — 00:37:13.460 · Ramit

Okay. What else um, do you spend money on?

 

00:37:13.460 — 00:37:20.940 · Grace

I will be transparent. I spend a lot of money on clothes. Lately, my body has changed a lot. I've lost a lot of weight recently, so I've had to buy a lot of clothes lately.

 

00:37:20.980 — 00:37:23.940 · Ramit

What are some of the shops that you shop at or places online?

 

00:37:23.980 — 00:37:25.220 · Grace

I love Amazon.

 

00:37:26.180 — 00:37:28.340 · Ramit

And how many clothes are we talking about?

 

00:37:28.380 — 00:37:31.700 · Grace

Probably more than I could ever imagine because I don't really keep track of it.

 

00:37:31.700 — 00:37:37.100 · Ramit

Chris, you mentioned Amazon boxes earlier. Yeah. How many of those boxes are coming in the house?

 

00:37:37.260 — 00:37:38.820 · Chris

Like multiple

 

00:37:40.260 — 00:37:47.710 · Chris

weekly? When we left to come here, I opened the door and there was like three things on the front step. Okay.

 

00:37:47.790 — 00:38:01.550 · Ramit

What I want to know is eating out. Yeah, I just want a quick number off the top of your head. No calculation needed. Eating out, including coffee, lunch, dinner, breakfast, any of it. How many times a week do you think that the two of you eat out?

 

00:38:01.590 — 00:38:02.510 · Grace

Uh, twice.

 

00:38:02.510 — 00:39:19.280 · Ramit

Twice. Okay, Chris. Quick number like, three, three times. Okay, great. Welcome to another episode of Raw Meat City's lore of eating out, where people tell me that they think they only ate out three times a week. And the answer turns out to be at least three times higher than whatever they told me. You've heard me do this on the podcast before, and I love this.

 

I ran Grace and Chris through my little audit. What did you all eat for Sunday breakfast? What about for dinner? What about for coffee? And the number we landed on was not to like Grace guest. It was not three. Like Chris suggested. It wasn't five, 10 or 12. It was 15. What the hell is wrong with you, America?

 

I don't mind if you eat out a lot. Fine. If you can afford it. And you love it, God bless. But can we stop lying to ourselves? Can we stop saying, oh, I only eat all three times a week, and then by Tuesday, you've already eaten out six times a week. Come on, let's get realistic. I want you to try this exercise yourself.

 

Leave me a comment today on how many times you thought you ate out every week, including coffee, lunch, dinner, breakfast, a snack, brunch, any of it. And then tell me what the total tally is for the week. I bet you're going to be surprised 15 times per week.

 

00:39:20.440 — 00:39:21.880 · Ramit

What do you make of that?

 

00:39:22.120 — 00:39:22.920 · Grace

Too much?

 

00:39:23.520 — 00:39:30.760 · Chris

Yeah, it's ridiculous because we're drowning and we should be making food at home and going to the grocery store.

 

00:39:30.760 — 00:39:34.880 · Ramit

And anybody surprised by the fact that you thought it was twice a week and it's actually 15?

 

00:39:34.920 — 00:39:38.480 · Grace

Uh, not surprised. No. I had a feeling that I was not a good estimate.

 

00:39:38.520 — 00:39:40.240 · Ramit

What? What do you make of this?

 

00:39:40.240 — 00:39:43.610 · Chris

That it's probably more than that, too, because I, I get lunch.

 

00:39:43.690 — 00:39:48.450 · Ramit

You all have concocted a reality that is not real.

 

00:39:48.490 — 00:39:49.010 · Grace

Mhm.

 

00:39:49.170 — 00:40:19.570 · Ramit

We are trying to get to the root of what's going on here. You eat out 20 times. If we factor in the days you eat out and probably the stuff we didn't even count. You said two. It's 20. So you all are spending thousands per month on stuff that we would technically call guilt free. But it's not. It's just discretionary.

 

I think we can make some big changes. Please, would you be open to it?

 

00:40:19.610 — 00:40:19.970 · Grace

Very.

 

00:40:20.010 — 00:40:20.970 · Ramit

Yeah. Both.

 

00:40:21.010 — 00:40:22.210 · Grace

Yes, please.

 

00:40:22.330 — 00:40:22.810 · Ramit

I like.

 

00:40:22.810 — 00:40:23.050 · Grace

That.

 

00:40:23.090 — 00:40:34.370 · Ramit

Yeah, I like that energy. Okay. I need to understand how you got here. Chris, what do you remember your family saying about money when you were younger?

 

00:40:34.370 — 00:41:19.860 · Chris

There wasn't, like, a whole lot of talk about it. We were. I was pretty fortunate growing up. my my dad had a good job. My mom had a good job. We lived in a in a pretty decent size home. How big? Um. 3000. Okay. Ish. Keep going. Square feet. Um. It was my sister. Uh, me and my brother. Um, you know, I, I was able to, you know, play sports, play on the travel teams where, you know, you had to spend a little bit more money to be, you know, to play.

 

And I always got the glove and the baseball bat and the nice basketball shoes. And it was very steady for us. And I really had no, no problems growing up.

 

00:41:19.900 — 00:41:25.780 · Ramit

What money messages do you think you grew up with that you are now bringing to this relationship?

 

00:41:25.820 — 00:41:30.979 · Chris

I didn't have to worry about it. So I, I guess

 

00:41:32.500 — 00:41:38.350 · Chris

growing up now, I am kind of chill about it and chill.

 

00:41:38.390 — 00:41:38.630 · Ramit

What does.

 

00:41:38.630 — 00:41:48.190 · Chris

That mean? Yeah, I just didn't have to worry about that growing up. And I feel like that's a bad trait that I've taken as a kid, and it's.

 

00:41:48.230 — 00:42:11.590 · Ramit

But it's interesting because the way you describe it is you said it in the first two sentences. You said, I grew up very fortunate. Yes. My parents never talked about money to us. And here you are today, 25 years later, not talking about money, in fact, highly avoidant with money, you're still not paying attention, just as you didn't pay attention to money when you were a kid.

 

What's the problem?

 

00:42:11.910 — 00:42:14.870 · Chris

Well, when we say like that, it sounds like there is no problem.

 

00:42:14.950 — 00:42:16.630 · Ramit

There's no problem for you.

 

00:42:16.670 — 00:42:17.350 · Chris

Yeah.

 

00:42:17.590 — 00:42:19.830 · Ramit

Who has the problem?

 

00:42:19.950 — 00:42:20.790 · Chris

My wife.

 

00:42:20.950 — 00:42:25.470 · Ramit

Yes. And if your wife has a problem, then who else has a problem?

 

00:42:25.630 — 00:42:26.430 · Chris

Us together?

 

00:42:26.470 — 00:42:26.950 · Ramit

Yes.

 

00:42:26.990 — 00:42:29.670 · Chris

So then I have the problem? Yes as well.

 

00:42:29.710 — 00:44:31.790 · Ramit

Yes. If I were you, I might reinterpret the way I was raised. Which is? Look, my parents were awesome. They did the best they could. They gave us a great childhood. However, they never talked about money and that has actually really cost me a lot. I never had to pay attention. I never even knew it was a thing.

 

And now, as an adult, I'm struggling to actually care about money, to talk about money. My wife is telling me she feels like she's on a sinking ship. And I think back, I wish my parents had talked about it, and I wish I had taken a little bit more interest in it. Do you see how reinterpreting your narrative, whether it's your childhood or adult life, can dramatically change the way that you look at today?

 

Yeah, yeah, I thought it was really interesting when Chris said I was really fortunate. Growing up, my parents never talked about money, as if the two go hand in hand, as if talking about money is a bad thing, because the only way to talk about money is if you are worried about it. Look at my face. Do I look like I'm worried about money?

 

No. I get the opportunity to talk about it. Money means, oh, I can buy a new phone. Money means I can take a trip or buy some Doritos. Money is not simply a source of stress and overwhelming guilt, but that is the invisible script going on here. Now, not surprisingly, Chris did not talk about money, fortunately.

 

And guess what? He doesn't talk about money today because just like his childhood, somebody else manages it. Both of them have been subsidized in one way or another. There's inheritance. There's a home. There's somebody taking care of the money. And when you are subsidized, it becomes very difficult for you to live in reality and to understand what it would be like to have to do things on your very own.

 

That's why this conversation is proving so challenging right now. Grace, what do you remember your family saying about money when you were young.

 

00:44:32.150 — 00:45:09.030 · Grace

Um, there wasn't much talk of it when I was young. We didn't have a lot of it. My. I grew up with a single mom. Um, there were times in my life where feeding or, you know, paying our our babysitter with food out of our fridge. Like, it was pretty, um, dire in different ways. I was a student that was provided free lunch at school because I, you know, we didn't have the money.

 

My mom worked her tail off three jobs. Single mom. Um, so money was not prevalent. She say she really didn't talk about it much. I think she really tried to be a protector of keeping adult problems and adult problem and not talking about it with a little kid.

 

00:45:09.030 — 00:45:10.110 · Ramit

You grew up in the Midwest?

 

00:45:10.150 — 00:45:11.950 · Grace

Yeah. Um, um.

 

00:45:12.750 — 00:45:14.950 · Ramit

How many siblings I have?

 

00:45:14.990 — 00:45:23.390 · Grace

Well, so growing up at that time. So my mom got remarried and then that kind of shifted. Also my financial experience, too. Um, but when I was little, I just have one full sibling.

 

00:45:23.390 — 00:45:28.950 · Ramit

One sibling. And then you mentioned your mom got remarried. What age were you when she got remarried?

 

00:45:28.990 — 00:45:37.520 · Grace

I was ten and my wonderful stepfather, he has a great job and he moved us, you know, to a nice home, a nice area and.

 

00:45:37.920 — 00:45:54.360 · Ramit

Then take me through that moment. So you were financially struggling until the age of ten, and then suddenly your stepdad has a stable job, etc.. What was that experience like for you?

 

00:45:54.440 — 00:46:06.360 · Grace

Like total 180, it was like, oh, I can I can play sports. I can be I can afford to be a cheerleader and take these gymnastics classes and I, I can buy clothes and I don't have to take hand-me-downs from people. And what did it feel like?

 

00:46:07.560 — 00:46:11.080 · Grace

Exciting. Um. Like secure.

 

00:46:11.680 — 00:46:12.120 · Ramit

What does that.

 

00:46:12.120 — 00:46:17.600 · Grace

Mean? Um, just that I wasn't stressed or worried about that my needs to be met.

 

00:46:18.000 — 00:46:18.440 · Ramit

Were you?

 

00:46:18.440 — 00:46:34.210 · Grace

Before I knew she was gone a lot, I you could, you know, you could kind of read between the lines. You're intuitive. And I think I knew that, you know, you're like, why is my mom have so many jobs? And why is she gone all the time? And why does someone have to watch me? So, you know, you kind of make your own narrative of maybe what's going on.

 

00:46:34.250 — 00:46:34.610 · Ramit

What was the.

 

00:46:34.610 — 00:46:39.970 · Grace

Narrative? Um, just that life was hard, and my mom needed to work a lot to make ends meet.

 

00:46:40.290 — 00:46:49.890 · Ramit

So when your mom remarries, you feel more secure. You're able to participate in school activities. What happens in your teenage years with money?

 

00:46:50.050 — 00:47:02.610 · Grace

You know, my parents are divorced, and so I never lived with my dad, so I'm not sure. Like, I know their financial aspect is a little different. But in the household I grew up, I never I never really wanted for anything. I never felt deprived of something that I needed.

 

00:47:03.010 — 00:47:09.250 · Ramit

Um, is your mom and stepdad still together or are they separated? They are. Okay. How are they doing with money?

 

00:47:09.330 — 00:47:10.889 · Grace

I don't know, we don't talk about it

 

00:47:11.930 — 00:47:14.210 · Grace

at all. Not really. Okay. No.

 

00:47:14.330 — 00:47:18.210 · Ramit

Okay. Got it. Did you go to college? Yes. How did you pay for that?

 

00:47:18.250 — 00:47:27.340 · Grace

Um. I was very fortunate. My grandfather and my grandmother, um, had an inheritance for or like, a college fund for each of the cousins. Oh, yeah. We were.

 

00:47:27.500 — 00:47:29.860 · Ramit

What did they do to have all this inheritance? Quite impressive.

 

00:47:30.300 — 00:47:33.580 · Grace

Um, my grandfather was a fantastic architect. Wow. Yeah.

 

00:47:33.620 — 00:47:38.900 · Ramit

And he and your grandmother. Seems like they saved and invested a whole bunch to be created.

 

00:47:39.260 — 00:47:41.460 · Grace

Trusts? Yes. Wow. Yeah.

 

00:47:41.500 — 00:47:45.780 · Ramit

Um, so they paid for your college. Do you know how much approximately that cost?

 

00:47:45.820 — 00:47:52.140 · Grace

Um, well, my undergrad and my grad school in total was probably about $230,000.

 

00:47:52.180 — 00:47:55.140 · Ramit

Whoa. Yeah, that's a quite a gift.

 

00:47:55.180 — 00:48:03.060 · Grace

Uh, and I don't even have words to explain the gift. Yeah. Okay. Like, I am beyond lucky to have had that privilege. Yeah.

 

00:48:03.500 — 00:48:13.540 · Ramit

Do you take anything away from the example that your grandparents set by being able to give this money? Multiple generations later?

 

00:48:13.580 — 00:48:29.350 · Grace

I would love to do that. I have no idea how they managed it. Yeah. They seem to have had it really well figured out. My grandfather and my grandmother were very, um, smart with their finances. And I wish prior to their passing, I had taken more time to understand that.

 

00:48:29.390 — 00:48:31.910 · Ramit

Are you having those conversations in this relationship?

 

00:48:31.950 — 00:48:36.190 · Grace

No. I would like to be, but I don't know how to start them.

 

00:48:36.510 — 00:48:40.150 · Ramit

Grace, what messages do you bring from childhood to this relationship?

 

00:48:40.350 — 00:48:43.070 · Grace

I think it was. It'll all work itself out.

 

00:48:43.110 — 00:48:43.550 · Ramit

Mhm.

 

00:48:44.230 — 00:48:46.790 · Grace

Um, so it'll all be fine. You know, it.

 

00:48:46.950 — 00:48:49.670 · Ramit

It is fine when Mom and Dad are the ones doing it.

 

00:48:49.790 — 00:48:50.470 · Grace

Yeah.

 

00:48:50.510 — 00:48:54.270 · Ramit

And you mentioned your mom was the protector when it comes to money.

 

00:48:54.310 — 00:49:03.230 · Grace

Yeah. I think she just. She put her head down and worked her tail off and was like, I don't want my kids to see me struggle, and I'm going to make happen what I need to make happen for them.

 

00:49:03.270 — 00:49:05.790 · Ramit

Who's the protector in this relationship when it comes to money?

 

00:49:06.070 — 00:49:06.749 · Grace

Me

 

00:49:08.110 — 00:49:09.390 · Grace

maybe I don't know.

 

00:49:09.430 — 00:49:09.990 · Ramit

Yes.

 

00:49:09.990 — 00:49:13.390 · Grace

I think I'm shielding him from having to know the struggle of it.

 

00:49:13.430 — 00:49:14.110 · Ramit

Yes.

 

00:49:15.230 — 00:49:16.710 · Grace

God, you're good at that.

 

00:49:18.310 — 00:49:19.950 · Grace

Yeah. No, that makes sense.

 

00:49:19.990 — 00:49:25.320 · Ramit

And when your mom protected you from money? What was she doing in the moment?

 

00:49:25.360 — 00:49:27.040 · Grace

I think the intention was good.

 

00:49:27.080 — 00:49:28.000 · Ramit

Which was.

 

00:49:28.280 — 00:49:34.720 · Grace

To not feel the stress or the pain of, you know, struggling.

 

00:49:35.000 — 00:49:37.920 · Ramit

Because she doesn't like to see people she loves struggle.

 

00:49:37.960 — 00:49:40.400 · Grace

Or be uncomfortable, which is what I don't like.

 

00:49:40.680 — 00:49:41.120 · Ramit

Hmm.

 

00:49:41.160 — 00:49:44.040 · Grace

And I don't want him to struggle or be uncomfortable.

 

00:49:44.120 — 00:49:54.080 · Ramit

Maybe I'll can do this with your kids, huh? Not see them struggle and not see them be uncomfortable. And then when they grow up, they can do it to their partners. And then for five generations, we can just carry this.

 

00:49:54.080 — 00:49:55.720 · Grace

No no no no no. Huh?

 

00:49:55.760 — 00:49:56.960 · Ramit

No no no no

 

00:49:58.160 — 00:50:07.600 · Ramit

1. Wow. Chris, what was that? That was like a real gangster attitude right there. No. Thanks. Motherfucker. Where did that come out of?

 

00:50:08.480 — 00:50:12.080 · Chris

We just gotta. We gotta break the cycle. Yeah, gotta break the cycle.

 

00:50:12.120 — 00:50:12.560 · Ramit

What cycle?

 

00:50:12.560 — 00:50:20.370 · Chris

Though? The talking about money. Talking about uncomfortable things. Being okay with being uncomfortable. I hate being uncomfortable.

 

00:50:20.370 — 00:50:56.770 · Ramit

So you're willing to do it? Yeah, well, you are being uncomfortable by being here right now, I could tell. Yeah, 100%. And I appreciate that. This is not easy for anybody. So you are ready to change the cycle. Like that. Really that power you had when you said no, that spoke to me for the first time. It's amazing, Chris, that you are willing to kind of let this dynamic persist, the one where you don't talk about money, etc. but when it comes to a future child that's not even born yet, you are fierce about it.

 

Not continuing.

 

00:50:56.770 — 00:50:59.250 · Grace

That is a conversation that we've had. Yeah.

 

00:50:59.290 — 00:51:01.010 · Ramit

Yes, you have had it with him.

 

00:51:01.010 — 00:51:12.410 · Grace

Yes. Because that's my thing, is this is the only other thing we dispute about is like, why are you ready to make the changes when a child is here? But why can we not make them ahead of time to set ourselves up for that?

 

00:51:12.450 — 00:51:16.650 · Ramit

Okay. And have you said this is what I need before we have kids?

 

00:51:17.090 — 00:51:26.500 · Grace

I don't know what I need. I don't know. And I think that's part of it too, is why we're here. I need to figure out what I need for that to. For that to feel okay and ready.

 

00:51:26.540 — 00:51:27.500 · Ramit

You want to do it right now?

 

00:51:27.540 — 00:51:28.140 · Grace

Sure.

 

00:51:28.980 — 00:51:30.060 · Ramit

Yeah. Time like the present?

 

00:51:30.100 — 00:51:30.660 · Grace

Yeah. Yeah.

 

00:51:30.700 — 00:51:34.780 · Ramit

Hey, I don't like homework anyway. I might as well just do it now. What do you think?

 

00:51:34.820 — 00:51:35.300 · Grace

That's all I have.

 

00:51:35.500 — 00:51:51.260 · Ramit

By the way. Sorry. Correction for America. I don't like homework. For me, as a 43 year old man who dominated homework for the kids. You get the homework and you better do it. We're going to find out what you both want and need. Have you ever talked about what your rich life is?

 

00:51:53.500 — 00:51:54.620 · Ramit

No. Okay.

 

00:51:54.900 — 00:51:56.020 · Grace

Well, I mean.

 

00:51:56.060 — 00:51:59.220 · Ramit

People who have talked about their rich life, they answer like that.

 

00:51:59.260 — 00:52:00.860 · Chris

Vaguely. What's a rich life?

 

00:52:01.100 — 00:52:02.100 · Ramit

You tell me.

 

00:52:02.500 — 00:52:20.830 · Chris

Because my my rich life. I don't want to be. I don't need to be a millionaire. I don't need to be a trillionaire. I just need to be able to be stable enough to have a family. Okay. Do you know? Do things when we get asked to or if we want to on the weekends with family and friends.

 

00:52:20.870 — 00:52:21.750 · Ramit

Be specific.

 

00:52:21.750 — 00:52:27.510 · Chris

I want to make enough money to just be comfortable where we are. I want to have a family.

 

00:52:27.510 — 00:52:32.790 · Ramit

I want to eat out 15 times a week. That's fine if that's what you want. Sure. Okay, great.

 

00:52:32.830 — 00:52:33.190 · Chris

That'd be.

 

00:52:33.190 — 00:52:33.870 · Ramit

Great. Great.

 

00:52:33.870 — 00:52:38.830 · Chris

I would love to have for my kids if they say, hey, dad, I want to play this sport great.

 

00:52:38.830 — 00:52:40.950 · Ramit

And you want to give them the same childhood you had?

 

00:52:41.030 — 00:52:41.550 · Chris

Yeah.

 

00:52:41.590 — 00:52:41.910 · Ramit

Okay.

 

00:52:41.950 — 00:52:42.750 · Chris

That would be awesome.

 

00:52:42.750 — 00:52:44.990 · Ramit

That's it. That's the rich life.

 

00:52:45.030 — 00:52:46.230 · Chris

That would be awesome.

 

00:52:46.550 — 00:52:54.990 · Ramit

It feels very surface level. It's literally just a recitation of how you grew up. Like, if you don't like travel, I'm not forcing you to travel. That's your life.

 

00:52:54.990 — 00:52:56.550 · Chris

Not like not a big traveler.

 

00:52:56.590 — 00:53:13.389 · Ramit

Food, leisure, convenience. For me to be able to treat my family because they live close by and they like going to a ball game and I gosh, once a year I sure would like to get box seats. That would be a rich life. But what I'm hearing is I want to be able to

 

00:53:14.440 — 00:53:16.960 · Ramit

live a comfortable life. Yeah. That's boring.

 

00:53:17.000 — 00:53:19.040 · Chris

But that's. I'm a simple man.

 

00:53:19.080 — 00:53:30.440 · Ramit

What I'm trying to get at is, is there something deeper here? And I think if you just wanted to learn how to save a little bit of money, there's plenty of places you could have gone. Why did you come here?

 

00:53:30.480 — 00:53:32.000 · Chris

We. We came here.

 

00:53:33.320 — 00:53:41.920 · Chris

Um, because my my wife, she's she's new. Who you were and knew what you were about. And her therapist,

 

00:53:43.000 — 00:53:45.520 · Chris

uh, wanted us to check you out.

 

00:53:45.560 — 00:53:52.440 · Ramit

You came here because your wife wanted to come here? Sure. I think that might be the crux of what's going on here.

 

00:53:52.680 — 00:53:53.640 · Chris

Maybe a little.

 

00:53:53.680 — 00:54:14.970 · Ramit

The avoidance seeps into every part of your life. You're even avoiding talking about your own rich life. I didn't care if you came to me and said, I want to buy a $150,000 worth of shoes, I would be like, God bless. Let's figure out how to do it. But if you can't even do that. Your rich life. Not even her's yours.

 

00:54:16.250 — 00:54:28.050 · Ramit

It's going to be very difficult for you two to make progress together. I want you to think about that. Grace, I want to ask you about your rich life. Actually, before I get to that. What did you notice as I was speaking to Chris about his rich life?

 

00:54:28.130 — 00:54:33.890 · Grace

I think he wants more than he's saying. Oh, I think he has more rich life ideas that he's just not saying.

 

00:54:33.890 — 00:54:34.530 · Ramit

Like.

 

00:54:34.570 — 00:54:48.330 · Grace

Like we want to add onto our house and we talk about that and growing, you know, and how he wants like just in more detail. I think he could say in more detail what he wants. I know he says he's simple, but I think in his head there's more detail than he's saying.

 

00:54:49.170 — 00:54:53.250 · Chris

Yeah, sometimes I'm, I, I don't articulate

 

00:54:54.290 — 00:54:55.210 · Chris

the best.

 

00:54:55.250 — 00:54:59.370 · Ramit

Yeah. I mean, it is nerve wracking here. We got a bunch of lights and all that stuff. Fair enough.

 

00:54:59.410 — 00:55:06.330 · Grace

No, he's just a man of few words. He has such great ideas and things that he wants. And I just don't think maybe you describe them in the way that you want.

 

00:55:06.530 — 00:55:08.810 · Ramit

Grace, are you okay being with a man of few words?

 

00:55:09.620 — 00:55:11.180 · Grace

Um, sometimes.

 

00:55:11.180 — 00:55:56.300 · Ramit

Because I'm struggling to find out what your rich life is. And I know how to do this. What I want is change and sometimes grace. The way to do that is to set an expectation and hold the partner accountable. But because you don't like to see people uncomfortable, you are currently unable to do that. And so you fill the void.

 

All these are just stories you tell yourself. What if you just change that? What if you flipped it? Oh, as of yesterday, I was not good at letting people that I love be uncomfortable. But starting today, I am extremely good. In fact, I love it because I know that every second of their discomfort makes them stronger.

 

Hmm. I wonder if we could just change our narrative. Grace, what's your British life?

 

00:55:56.340 — 00:56:24.190 · Grace

Um. I love coffee shops and going and trying unique coffee shops, and I would love to go and try as many coffee shops as I want and not worry about how expensive the latte is. We want to fence in our yards, our dogs can run around and we want to put, you know, a play gym or whatever we want to put back there and have an all seasons room.

 

And we want to add on to our primary bedroom. And, you know, so I would love to add on because we do plan to stay in that house. I love, you know, we love our house.

 

00:56:24.190 — 00:56:25.790 · Ramit

Um, what about for the two of you?

 

00:56:26.150 — 00:57:00.110 · Grace

I would love for us to be able to still have date nights after having children. Nice. I would love to, like, really be intentional about intentional about time for like, connection with each other. I would love to be able to afford child care if needed or figure out how to navigate that, like with our families, because we do have families that really want to be involved, which is wonderful.

 

But also if they're not available, you know, I want to figure that out about how you financially work all those things out. Um, I would I would love to travel. I, I don't we don't travel a lot. Um, but if we had the means to travel, I think we would more. Okay.

 

00:57:00.230 — 00:57:01.510 · Ramit

What about for yourself?

 

00:57:01.590 — 00:57:17.240 · Grace

There are some things that are also on our conscious spending plan that I do like that are self-care and that are important to me. So like some of the medications I take are, what I do with my hair. Like that is really important for my overall well-being in mental health. And so those I'd like to keep intact.

 

00:57:17.280 — 00:57:21.920 · Ramit

Great. Chris, what do you hear when she describes her rich life?

 

00:57:22.320 — 00:57:25.440 · Chris

I feel like hers was more like, kind of like home oriented.

 

00:57:25.520 — 00:57:25.960 · Ramit

Mhm.

 

00:57:26.160 — 00:57:31.440 · Chris

Like we we do want to put on a Three Seasons room. We do want to fence the yard. Yep.

 

00:57:31.520 — 00:58:04.650 · Ramit

Like it actually told me a bit of who she is. Yeah. You know what I heard in that was like oh she loves coffee. Okay. That's interesting. She's a coffee lover, and she'd like to be able to do date night with the two of you. And then there's something about childcare and expanding that, like, oh, okay, I kind of get who she is.

 

That's what I want to know when I ask people about their rich life. If you ask me, I would talk about hotels and travel and convenience and you'd be like, this guy is a little weird, but like, I can tell the kind of guy he is. The more that the two of you are specific about it, the more that we can rework some of your numbers.

 

00:58:04.930 — 00:58:16.290 · Grace

I would also add to love or love to add, if we could afford to have a long service. Yeah, to where they could take care of our landscaping and our Betsy. I like that one. I know that.

 

00:58:16.530 — 00:58:20.010 · Ramit

Chris just goes, yeah, get those long guys out here immediately.

 

00:58:20.050 — 00:58:24.490 · Grace

Talking about he knows it's in his head. He just doesn't think to say it. But Chris, we have the same.

 

00:58:24.650 — 00:58:28.130 · Ramit

Kids and lawn care. Is that your thing?

 

00:58:29.610 — 00:58:34.250 · Chris

Yeah, I mean, I, I mow the lawn once a week. I got my little push mower.

 

00:58:34.290 — 00:58:37.490 · Ramit

What age are you gonna make your own kids mow the lawn?

 

00:58:37.530 — 00:58:40.130 · Chris

Maybe, like 17, 18. That's too.

 

00:58:40.330 — 00:58:52.850 · Ramit

Late. What are you talking about? 17 years old to mow, maybe 16. I thought you were gonna say six. I was like my man now 17 for a push mower, bro. I was out there at, like, age, what, ten, 11? Mowing that.

 

00:58:54.450 — 00:59:26.820 · Ramit

This is honestly pretty hard, especially because they have never faced actual consequences for their financial behavior. Sure, they spend more than they make, but they still have Spotify. They still buy all this cool dog food. So how am I going to get through to them? One thing that I can try to do is show them what is reasonably likely to happen if they make no changes.

 

I don't know if it's going to really land or not. I'm going to try my best. If nothing changes in your finances, if nothing changes in the way that you communicate, what's going to happen?

 

00:59:26.860 — 00:59:32.820 · Chris

She's going to keep looking away. I'm going to keep looking away. We're not going to be on the same page.

 

00:59:32.860 — 00:59:33.300 · Ramit

And then.

 

00:59:33.300 — 00:59:37.540 · Chris

And then we're going to be broke.

 

00:59:37.860 — 00:59:38.780 · Ramit

And then.

 

00:59:39.420 — 00:59:39.700 · Chris

That's.

 

00:59:39.700 — 00:59:44.780 · Ramit

It. No. Keep going. It's important that you actually understand what's at stake here.

 

00:59:44.780 — 00:59:55.700 · Chris

And then I'll probably have to sell the house. Yes. And then sell everything and get rid of everything until there's nothing left. And then you have nothing. Yeah.

 

00:59:56.380 — 00:59:58.220 · Ramit

How would that affect your relationship?

 

00:59:58.780 — 01:00:06.590 · Chris

Terribly. I never. I mean, I'm not going anywhere with her, but I'm sure it would be not ideal.

 

01:00:06.710 — 01:00:24.830 · Ramit

Is it possible that the environment you grew up in was not particularly healthy for money, even though you all had a pretty nice upbringing for your entire childhood and after the age of ten? Is it possible you may have had things but you did not learn knowledge?

 

01:00:24.990 — 01:00:26.350 · Chris

100% 100%?

 

01:00:26.390 — 01:00:29.430 · Grace

I mean, I always say like, these are the things I wish they taught you in school.

 

01:00:29.430 — 01:00:35.630 · Ramit

You all are adults now. Mhm. It's on YouTube. The freaking books are at the public library.

 

01:00:35.670 — 01:00:36.870 · Grace

It's on my dining room table.

 

01:00:36.910 — 01:00:37.550 · Ramit

Did you read it?

 

01:00:37.590 — 01:00:46.149 · Grace

Not yet. I wanted to read it together, so I haven't started myself because I figured if I started myself, I would do it all myself. And then

 

01:00:47.430 — 01:00:49.630 · Grace

where? It's money for couples, not money for one.

 

01:00:49.670 — 01:00:50.950 · Ramit

So did you tell them that?

 

01:00:51.150 — 01:00:55.110 · Grace

I mean, I told them, yes, I'd like to read it, but it didn't really go past that.

 

01:00:55.510 — 01:01:09.920 · Ramit

Okay, y'all walk around eggshells for the rest of your life, right into being, right into losing the house and the future family that you mentioned about having a child or multiple children. What will they learn about money if nothing changes?

 

01:01:10.400 — 01:01:14.320 · Grace

Not good things, not good habits, not good patterns?

 

01:01:14.480 — 01:01:15.920 · Ramit

Um, what will they learn?

 

01:01:16.920 — 01:01:21.000 · Grace

How to avoid talking about money? How to just hope it all works out?

 

01:01:21.040 — 01:01:21.720 · Ramit

Chris.

 

01:01:22.360 — 01:01:36.120 · Chris

We're good people. I think our kids are gonna grow up and see that we're we're good people. But, like, if we keep going on this path, our kids for sure won't learn anything.

 

01:01:36.320 — 01:02:06.170 · Ramit

They'll learn watching the two of you. If nothing changes, moms are the ones who should be freaking out about money. Moms are the ones who try to convince dad to participate, but dad doesn't want to because dad wants to buy the things he wants. And then mom is the one who figures it out. Not sure if mom's even good at money though, But we got what we wanted.

 

We were very fortunate. They observed dads are the ones who are carefree, chill, easygoing. How does that strike you?

 

01:02:06.210 — 01:02:07.050 · Grace

Accurate?

 

01:02:07.090 — 01:02:09.170 · Chris

Yeah, very.

 

01:02:09.250 — 01:02:15.610 · Ramit

Y'all want to let your daughter grow up thinking that mom is the one who has to take on all the burden, and dad gets to do whatever he wants.

 

01:02:15.650 — 01:02:16.490 · Grace

Absolutely not.

 

01:02:16.530 — 01:02:17.530 · Ramit

And a son.

 

01:02:17.570 — 01:02:18.170 · Chris

No.

 

01:02:18.650 — 01:02:57.060 · Ramit

No. So let's change it. We're going to look at your numbers. Chris, I want you to take a leadership role in this. You all are on the path to losing what you've got and potentially having to sell the house in the future. I need you to make changes, and I'm going to give you a little suggestion. Typically, people who are spending more than the 60% I recommend for fixed costs they chip away by.

 

Let's cut Hulu, let's cut this, let's cut that. That's not going to work in your situation. You can't. So I want you to actually start with a blank page. And I want you to tell me what do you envision the kind of lifestyle that you want right now? is it can't be the lifestyle you have.

 

01:02:57.260 — 01:03:07.100 · Chris

I feel like the pets is pretty. Can't. Can't mess with that one. Phone's pretty stable. Maybe take out the Cooper's Hawk wine subscription.

 

01:03:07.100 — 01:03:08.380 · Ramit

That's $20.

 

01:03:08.420 — 01:03:08.980 · Chris

Yeah.

 

01:03:09.700 — 01:03:11.420 · Ramit

You want to see what the effect of that is?

 

01:03:11.460 — 01:03:12.340 · Chris

It's nothing.

 

01:03:12.380 — 01:03:20.340 · Ramit

I'll just show you. So instead of 60, we're going to make this 40 and watch this number up here. This 113%. It drops to.

 

01:03:20.820 — 01:03:21.260 · Chris

Nothing.

 

01:03:21.260 — 01:03:24.180 · Ramit

Nothing. Think bigger and move faster.

 

01:03:24.500 — 01:03:35.460 · Chris

The 662 heron GLP one. That's a kind of a cosmetic thing, but I know it. It makes her happy. But maybe if we take that off the board, something might happen.

 

01:03:35.500 — 01:03:39.340 · Ramit

Ask her, is she willing to make that change? She's not. Didn't ask her. How do.

 

01:03:39.340 — 01:03:41.340 · Chris

You know? Are you willing to make that change? No, no.

 

01:03:41.380 — 01:03:41.980 · Ramit

Okay.

 

01:03:42.220 — 01:03:51.380 · Grace

Yeah. I mean, that's like my mental well-being. Like when you have a condition where hair loss is a thing. Okay. Taking care of that is something important.

 

01:03:51.420 — 01:03:54.710 · Ramit

I was not aware of that. Thank you for clarifying. Let's keep it.

 

01:03:54.750 — 01:03:55.710 · Grace

Can I take a second?

 

01:03:55.750 — 01:03:56.790 · Ramit

Yeah. Of course.

 

01:03:57.950 — 01:03:59.270 · Ramit

Want to join her? Sure.

 

01:04:01.430 — 01:04:45.310 · Ramit

I don't mind that my guests sometimes cry. I don't mind that they get. I don't even mind that sometimes we have to take a break and they leave the room. Because these are very, very overwhelming feelings to encounter. Chris and Grace are actually discussing money in a way that they have never done before.

 

And yeah, I am pushing because I need them to see the seriousness of this situation. I totally respect and appreciate that she's taking a second and I want to keep going with them, because discomfort is not necessarily a sign to stop, might just be a sign that things are starting to sink in. Welcome back.

 

Welcome.

 

01:04:46.550 — 01:04:54.920 · Ramit

Okay, I'm glad we got a chance to take a break. How are you both doing? Good, Yeah. Okay. All right. Thank you for letting me know I appreciate that. Was not aware.

 

01:04:54.960 — 01:04:58.880 · Grace

Yeah, because it is a cost. I mean, it is an expense and a cost, and so, like.

 

01:04:58.920 — 01:05:05.080 · Ramit

I appreciate that. Thank you. Okay. Let's take a look at the numbers. Tell me what you would like to do next.

 

01:05:05.120 — 01:05:10.680 · Chris

Maybe take the cleaning therapy out. It's 280.

 

01:05:10.920 — 01:05:11.640 · Ramit

Ask her.

 

01:05:12.080 — 01:05:13.200 · Chris

Are you cool to take that out?

 

01:05:13.240 — 01:05:13.800 · Grace

No.

 

01:05:13.840 — 01:05:15.360 · Ramit

Okay. What else?

 

01:05:15.920 — 01:05:18.440 · Chris

Well, the subscriptions are kind of irrelevant.

 

01:05:18.560 — 01:05:19.000 · Ramit

It's tough.

 

01:05:19.000 — 01:05:19.800 · Chris

Right? Yeah.

 

01:05:19.840 — 01:05:20.440 · Ramit

Okay.

 

01:05:20.680 — 01:05:22.800 · Chris

What would you do? What would you like to do?

 

01:05:23.000 — 01:05:30.240 · Grace

I personally would just be like, okay, then we don't have gas or, like, we will just take out all the food, money because everything else I don't.

 

01:05:30.280 — 01:05:32.880 · Ramit

You're going to take out food before.

 

01:05:32.920 — 01:05:33.400 · Grace

That's that's.

 

01:05:33.480 — 01:05:47.320 · Ramit

I just want to point out what you're saying. No, I want you to hear it out loud. What you just said is we will take out food before we take out a cleaning service, before we take out fitness, Spotify, pets. We'll take out food.

 

01:05:47.680 — 01:05:49.250 · Grace

Yeah, I'd lower it.

 

01:05:49.490 — 01:05:58.010 · Ramit

You can lower it by $100. Not going to change a thing. What are you realizing? I just gave you the opportunity to cut from 113% to 60%. And you got.

 

01:05:58.050 — 01:05:58.610 · Grace

Nowhere.

 

01:05:58.650 — 01:06:00.570 · Ramit

Nowhere? What are you realizing?

 

01:06:00.810 — 01:06:04.010 · Grace

I'm having a hard time being willing to compromise on this.

 

01:06:04.370 — 01:06:16.530 · Ramit

Flip it from now on, Chris, for the next two minutes, you are completely in charge. I give you carte blanche. Do whatever you want, and she will support you just for the next two minutes. Go ahead.

 

01:06:16.610 — 01:06:21.010 · Chris

Probably the first easy ones would probably be like Spotify streaming.

 

01:06:21.690 — 01:06:22.970 · Ramit

Just tell me the number.

 

01:06:23.330 — 01:06:25.210 · Chris

Oh, maybe, like, cut in half.

 

01:06:25.370 — 01:06:28.050 · Ramit

All right. What else?

 

01:06:28.290 — 01:06:36.970 · Chris

Maybe, like cleaning and therapy. Just scratch that. Okay. Maybe somehow cut groceries and gas in half. No, that's not really.

 

01:06:36.970 — 01:06:38.330 · Ramit

I'll cut it for a hundred bucks, though.

 

01:06:38.370 — 01:06:40.410 · Chris

Sure. Maybe. Pets.

 

01:06:40.530 — 01:06:42.010 · Ramit

Yeah. Huh? Cheaper food?

 

01:06:42.050 — 01:06:42.490 · Chris

Yeah.

 

01:06:42.490 — 01:06:43.250 · Ramit

What else?

 

01:06:43.450 — 01:06:44.130 · Chris

That's about it.

 

01:06:44.170 — 01:06:45.730 · Ramit

All right, so we drop it a hundred.

 

01:06:45.770 — 01:06:46.450 · Chris

Yeah.

 

01:06:46.580 — 01:06:53.020 · Ramit

Remember, you are currently you have a magic wand. You can do anything you want. You have 30 more seconds.

 

01:06:53.300 — 01:06:54.540 · Chris

That's probably all I could do.

 

01:06:54.580 — 01:06:55.620 · Ramit

All right, so.

 

01:06:55.780 — 01:06:58.340 · Chris

I can't do anything else. That's it. Yeah, I can't.

 

01:06:58.380 — 01:06:59.740 · Ramit

Not because. Why?

 

01:06:59.780 — 01:07:00.420 · Chris

Just can't.

 

01:07:00.460 — 01:07:22.340 · Ramit

Didn't you tell me at the beginning? Like I want to be the man of the relationship. And the man is the one who provides. ET cetera. Yeah. In that prototypical way of thinking about life doesn't demand. Especially when somebody like me is like, you have carte blanche. You could do anything you want. Magic wand.

 

Aren't they just, like, motherfuck these numbers and they just chop it out? Isn't that what the man does?

 

01:07:22.500 — 01:07:23.700 · Chris

Yeah, but I can't do that.

 

01:07:23.740 — 01:07:24.260 · Ramit

Why?

 

01:07:24.780 — 01:07:25.780 · Chris

Because I can't.

 

01:07:25.820 — 01:07:40.180 · Ramit

Okay, the number is you went from 113 to 104%. You all are broke. That's simply unsustainable. Yeah. I think what's happening here is you all want me to do some magic trick for you, when you all are not even willing to make the changes yourself? Is that what's happening?

 

01:07:40.620 — 01:07:42.260 · Grace

I could see it look like that.

 

01:07:42.380 — 01:07:48.190 · Chris

Scroll down. Take out. You got to take out the GLP one in the hair. Okay.

 

01:07:48.230 — 01:07:48.590 · Ramit

Zero to.

 

01:07:48.630 — 01:07:57.950 · Chris

That out. Um, maybe only like a streaming thing for, like, to watch TV or something. Okay, great. I mean, yeah, I don't really know what else to do.

 

01:07:57.990 — 01:08:00.990 · Grace

We pay for dog walking services. It's like.

 

01:08:01.030 — 01:08:01.910 · Chris

Oh, yeah.

 

01:08:01.990 — 01:08:03.870 · Grace

360 a month. What?

 

01:08:04.350 — 01:08:07.990 · Ramit

350 bucks a month for a dog walker out of 635.

 

01:08:08.030 — 01:08:13.750 · Grace

Only three days a week. It's crazy. Dog walking is expensive. So. So, I mean, in theory, yes. That could.

 

01:08:13.790 — 01:08:14.830 · Chris

I mean, there you go. Okay.

 

01:08:14.830 — 01:08:21.190 · Ramit

Goodbye. Dog walker. All right. You're at 89%. It's better. Nice, but not enough.

 

01:08:21.270 — 01:08:22.509 · Chris

What is the number need to be to.

 

01:08:22.509 — 01:08:23.549 · Ramit

Not 60.

 

01:08:23.589 — 01:08:25.830 · Chris

60. Okay.

 

01:08:26.549 — 01:10:26.010 · Ramit

I find this very peculiar phenomenon, especially in self-development, where people are obsessed with finding the perfect book, the perfect coach, the perfect program. And they almost never take a look in the mirror and ask themselves, am I coachable? And that is what I am seeing here. Are they ready to change?

 

I don't know, but it's pretty difficult for me to get them to see it. Now that doesn't mean they are uncatchable forever. We all have parts of our own life right now, today that we are not coachable in, including me. But there has to be a day where if we want to make a big change, we are coachable. So how do you become coachable?

 

It's hard. It takes practice and most of us have systematically shut that skill set down as we become adults because it's uncomfortable. It makes us feel bad. I don't want to do it. I'll avoid it. Or if the situation comes, I will just lie. Here's a different way to look at it. One deep acknowledgment that I have a problem and I need to change.

 

No minimization. No equivocation. Second, we need to make a change. Not the world, not somebody else. Not us. Me? I need to make a change. And then third, even the simplest specific tactic. From now on, I am going to ask my partner to lead our money conversations because I have been trying to do it my way and it's not working.

 

That's just the basic scratching the surface of how you become more coachable, which is a huge skill to develop. You have to remember you're at 89% with effectively no mortgage. This is not acceptable. If you had a mortgage, it's one thing. Even still, it would be unacceptable. You have no mortgage, correct?

 

So where's the money going? Look, miscellaneous is $809. No way.

 

01:10:27.370 — 01:11:27.260 · Ramit

But no one here said anything. Because both of you fundamentally don't believe you have control over your money. If I looked at these numbers, I go, give me a machete. I will cut this so aggressively. There's no way on this planet that we allow $809 in miscellaneous to happen. I'm going to fix it. I'll go.

 

Okay. Wow. Cool. You're telling me like that. What are you going to do? We're going to be in control of our numbers. We're going to download it every week. We're going to have a conversation. Oh, wow. We're going to give ourselves only $100 a month so that this number becomes in control and suddenly we're down to 79%.

 

Oh, that's better. But it's still not enough insurance that needs to be fixed. Chris, I need you to find out about this different job. I need you to find out what's going to happen. We can afford this for a while, but we cannot afford this for more than six months. What are you going to do? What's the plan? Give me a report on it.

 

Chris, I need you to take control because I don't want to be looking over your shoulder. This isn't the way the two of you talk right now. What do you say instead?

 

01:11:27.660 — 01:11:28.300 · Chris

Nothing.

 

01:11:28.340 — 01:11:33.460 · Ramit

Yeah. In a future like the one I was just describing, where I'm aggressive,

 

01:11:34.940 — 01:11:38.350 · Ramit

how would that ball game conversation have gone differently.

 

01:11:38.590 — 01:11:40.670 · Chris

We probably wouldn't have even gone, to be honest with you.

 

01:11:40.710 — 01:11:45.470 · Ramit

Bingo. My family calls me, hey, we're going to the ball game. It's a special occasion. What would I have said?

 

01:11:45.710 — 01:11:47.190 · Chris

No, thanks. Yeah.

 

01:11:47.470 — 01:11:52.070 · Ramit

I wish I could. I love you guys right now. Finish the sentence for me right now.

 

01:11:52.070 — 01:11:52.990 · Chris

I can't afford it.

 

01:11:53.030 — 01:12:04.830 · Ramit

Right now, we are prioritizing paying off our debt. Right now, we need to focus on saving money for the two of us. Hard to argue with that. Oh, come on, come on. We love you. It's okay.

 

01:12:04.910 — 01:12:05.550 · Chris

Yeah.

 

01:12:05.910 — 01:12:06.950 · Ramit

That would have got you right.

 

01:12:06.990 — 01:12:07.670 · Chris

Oh, yeah.

 

01:12:08.550 — 01:12:25.430 · Ramit

But until you can prioritize this relationship, specifically the finances and the connection, you will simply continue sinking underwater. And isn't that what you described this financial arrangement right now? You said it's a sinking ship.

 

01:12:26.510 — 01:12:30.990 · Ramit

Finally, where would a expenses for a kid go?

 

01:12:31.790 — 01:12:32.870 · Grace

Great question.

 

01:12:33.310 — 01:12:46.400 · Ramit

Nowhere. There's no money. We're not even diapers. Couldn't even afford that. Much less child care. And all the massive costs that come along with one kid. What's happening right now? What are you both realizing?

 

01:12:46.440 — 01:12:47.400 · Grace

It's terrifying.

 

01:12:47.800 — 01:12:50.840 · Chris

Good. Yes. Terrifying. Good.

 

01:12:50.880 — 01:12:51.560 · Grace

Sad?

 

01:12:51.760 — 01:13:00.680 · Ramit

Yes. Notice my reaction? Am I trying to assuage it? Am I trying to make you feel better right now because I don't like discomfort? No, no. What am I doing?

 

01:13:00.720 — 01:13:01.760 · Grace

Letting me sit in it.

 

01:13:01.800 — 01:13:11.800 · Ramit

Yeah, you earned it. And the only way you change is you realize how close you are to the edge of disaster. I have questions, the debt payments. When are they over?

 

01:13:12.480 — 01:13:22.520 · Grace

Um, some are 12 month and some are 15 months. So some should be over by December and some should be over by March. April of 27.

 

01:13:22.520 — 01:13:56.210 · Ramit

Can we look? I'm just going to zero this out to see what happens. Yeah okay. Fast forwarding you're down to 61% when that debt is paid off. Wow. That's pretty amazing. That's a stark difference, but I want to paint the picture for you at 15 months. If you were to execute this plan flawlessly, which I think is unrealistic, would we all agree?

 

Yep. It would mean that the GLP ones would stop today. Hair extensions would stop today. Eating out. There would be no eating out for 15 months. Pet food cut in half. Does this sound realistic?

 

01:13:56.850 — 01:13:57.250 · Chris

No.

 

01:13:57.250 — 01:13:58.130 · Ramit

Both saying no.

 

01:13:58.130 — 01:13:58.730 · Chris

No.

 

01:13:59.010 — 01:14:00.410 · Ramit

What's the solution here?

 

01:14:00.650 — 01:14:01.770 · Chris

At least do something.

 

01:14:01.810 — 01:14:23.170 · Grace

We've been pretty. The the debt payments are something that have been consistently being paid off. So they are on track to be paid. Okay. Um, in regards to, like, my medicine, that I am almost where I will be stopping anyway. So that will be, um, about $450 a month. That will be cut out soon.

 

01:14:23.570 — 01:14:24.690 · Ramit

What about earning?

 

01:14:24.770 — 01:14:28.010 · Grace

Yeah, I mean, I get an annual increase every year.

 

01:14:28.050 — 01:14:28.730 · Ramit

How much?

 

01:14:28.930 — 01:14:31.460 · Grace

Um, it varies between 3 to 5%.

 

01:14:31.500 — 01:14:33.500 · Ramit

Okay, fine. Chris.

 

01:14:33.660 — 01:14:38.420 · Chris

Bottom line, I would probably just have to switch my eye. Job is mine.

 

01:14:38.460 — 01:14:47.820 · Grace

I didn't even put this in here, and you're probably gonna freak out. Um, I have a second job, but it doesn't bring in a lot of money. It brings in about 8 to 10 grand a year.

 

01:14:47.860 — 01:14:53.340 · Ramit

Oh, wait, that's pretty good. What? Ten grand is not a lot. That's a lot of money.

 

01:14:53.380 — 01:15:08.580 · Grace

Well, I use it to pay off all the miscellaneous things and the the inquiries and the stuff you don't count. So it kind of just sits in an account, and then I pull from it to, like, you know, so I don't really disperse it anywhere because I try and hold on to it until I.

 

01:15:08.740 — 01:15:16.500 · Ramit

Grace, listen, you're not managing money effectively. Yeah. And you are not demanding enough of your partner. What are you hearing me say?

 

01:15:16.620 — 01:15:20.380 · Grace

That I am not managing my money effectively, and I'm not demanding enough of my partner.

 

01:15:20.420 — 01:15:23.220 · Ramit

How would you do each of those in turn? Be specific.

 

01:15:23.340 — 01:15:29.670 · Grace

Well, I would start to be more direct in my conversations and in my approach and my tone and my tenacity about it.

 

01:15:29.710 — 01:15:31.230 · Ramit

Yeah. For example.

 

01:15:31.950 — 01:15:38.390 · Grace

Like, hey, we don't even if we have this $100 left over, we aren't we are not going to we're not going to the game.

 

01:15:38.630 — 01:15:39.110 · Ramit

Correct.

 

01:15:39.150 — 01:15:50.070 · Grace

We're not going to attend that. We are putting like we can go and hang out at the house when they're done or whenever they get back, but we can't go to that event or. Yeah, I know the wine walk is for your dad's birthday, but we we can't afford it right now.

 

01:15:50.110 — 01:15:54.630 · Ramit

Great. Um, I love that. Chris, how would you receive that?

 

01:15:55.110 — 01:16:03.790 · Chris

Probably not. Well, to be honest with you, but seeing this, like there just needs to be a change, or else we're just not going to survive.

 

01:16:03.830 — 01:16:16.110 · Ramit

So, yes, I appreciate your honesty. Actually, that's pretty cool of you to just be like, yeah, I wouldn't take it. Well, nobody does the first few times. And let me give you a little suggestion as to how to get to the point where you do receive it. Well,

 

01:16:17.270 — 01:17:11.400 · Ramit

if the two of you continue individually, then if you try to make a change, you are each going to invisibly tug like a tug of war. and it will be impossible to change. You will go right back to the way you were. So like or like, I'll just do this for three more months. It'll be fine. Oh, the dogs are so cute. We can't do that.

 

What if they don't like the food, etc.? The beers. Oh, come on, it's just my dad's birthday. It's once a year and you will resent each other. It's horrible place to be. What the two of you need to do is to find a vision together. Where you are both like, this is what we're doing. The outside world is not relevant to us.

 

We are the most important ones here because if we don't do this, we're going to be stuck in this forever, and then we're going to pass it on to our kids. For the one to third generation and maybe more, you have to find your why. That's why I talk about a rich life. You can get there in 15 months, maybe sooner. Thoughts?

 

01:17:11.480 — 01:17:12.680 · Grace

That sounds good to me.

 

01:17:12.720 — 01:17:15.000 · Chris

Yeah, that sounds great. We just gotta stick to it.

 

01:17:15.240 — 01:17:16.600 · Ramit

How are you gonna do that?

 

01:17:18.920 — 01:17:27.650 · Ramit

A lot of silence here. What's happening? Remember, I'm here to support you. I'm not here to tell you to do something you don't want to do. Grace, what's going through your head right now?

 

01:17:27.690 — 01:17:41.690 · Grace

I'm having a hard time with the idea of cutting and thinking about the fixed costs and the thing. Like, I, I think that I've tried to eliminate things as much as I could thus far without making my life miserable.

 

01:17:43.050 — 01:17:51.370 · Grace

Like, those things are all to me. Things that that keep me okay in life. I think I'm overwhelmed.

 

01:17:51.410 — 01:17:58.770 · Ramit

Yeah, yeah, that's pretty self-aware to to be able to call that. Chris, how about you?

 

01:17:58.890 — 01:18:15.890 · Chris

Yeah, it's it's very eye opening. I would say just not really realizing kind of what the situation was at hand. Yeah. Um, so yeah, I think it's just very eye opening and like actually kind of diagnosing what's actually going on.

 

01:18:15.930 — 01:18:21.250 · Ramit

Yeah. What would you say you see as the diagnosis, what is going on here.

 

01:18:21.290 — 01:18:31.140 · Chris

We have a lot of high costs at the price that we, you know, can't really afford. Mhm. Kind of bottom line.

 

01:18:31.180 — 01:19:08.700 · Grace

I think it's apparent that we just avoid it and we just kind of dance around the bush all the time, but never really get close to it. You know it's like a yeah we just are like well you know it'll be fine. It's all, you know, touch it and it won't hurt you, you know, and you just kind of hope that it'll all work itself out because seemingly it has.

 

Quote unquote. Right. Like, haven't lost our house yet. So, you know, and I have like my second job and that brings in, you know, and then that's that kind of sits on the side. So I'm like, okay, that subsidizes whatever I can account for. So I'll just, you know, until I, you mentally convince yourself that you've got it handled and you don't have it handled.

 

01:19:08.740 — 01:19:09.140 · Ramit

Yeah.

 

01:19:09.140 — 01:19:26.750 · Grace

So I think I just realized that I thought I was more involved than it and taking care of it than I really am. Um, and this is what I'd hope to get out of it, too, that it shined light on, like my patterns and my behaviors that I think I have under control, but clearly not. And, um, bringing awareness to that.

 

01:19:26.790 — 01:20:45.800 · Ramit

I actually love realizing that I have been doing something wrong. When you're not getting the outcomes you want and you're like, God, what's wrong? Is it me? Am I is there something genetic? And then somebody comes along and says, like, let's break down exactly what you're doing. Oh, you thought you're eating out twice a week.

 

You're eating out 20 times a week. You thought you were spending this much, but you actually did not include XYZ, ABC. And you go, oh, it actually all makes sense. Not that it's good, but at least it makes sense because once something makes sense, then you can start to make changes. Mm. You might be wondering why I did not get to how much they're going to have in retirement, or even contributing to their investments.

 

That's intentional because we couldn't even get fixed costs below 100% for me to talk about investments 30 years from now would be absolutely pointless. In fact, it would be an escape valve for them to focus on something else instead of the problem of their house burning right now. That's why I didn't talk about that stuff.

 

Sometimes you got to focus on what is in front of you and nail that before you can go to the next step and the next and the next. Based on what we've talked about today, what do you think you are going to do?

 

01:20:47.000 — 01:21:48.090 · Grace

Um, I think prioritizing getting that debt paid down. Um, I think figuring out where we can flex costs. So like, for example, like in maybe we flex how much the dog care is, I look into other, um, options for his food, if that's possible, eventually taking at least the GLP one part of my wellness bracket off increasing income would be nice.

 

Like in summer, I'm off on summer, so maybe I can take on more hours at the barn. I actually do make a better hourly rate there than I do at my current job. It's just the. The hours aren't there, so at least in the summer the hours are available. Um, so maybe I could do that to bring in some more income. Really? Actually trying to sit down and look at, I want to, like, actually understand how much we spend on gas and what that really is a month and actually do the numbers.

 

I also would like to look more into how much we really are eating out and like what we actually are doing, because I think like we just do it and it goes into the cloud and you think it never happened.

 

01:21:48.130 — 01:21:48.810 · Chris

Chris.

 

01:21:49.130 — 01:21:50.170 · Ramit

What about you?

 

01:21:50.210 — 01:22:19.140 · Chris

I just think trying to cut down where we can. Um, I think a big one will be me with the insurance that'll kind of cut, cut down costs for us. And I know we can't cut it all back. That's not, like, totally realistic. But when me and her go home, we're definitely going to start looking at things together and, you know, trying to figure out where we can and can't Canton trying to come up with a plan for that.

 

So. Okay.

 

01:22:19.180 — 01:22:25.620 · Grace

Is that a more regular time that we talk with each other? Would that be like a Thursday evening or something?

 

01:22:25.780 — 01:22:27.580 · Ramit

Okay. What are you going to do in this meeting?

 

01:22:27.980 — 01:22:29.660 · Grace

First, we should read your book.

 

01:22:30.020 — 01:22:30.660 · Chris

Yeah.

 

01:22:30.700 — 01:22:33.020 · Grace

Start with reading the book and follow the steps.

 

01:22:33.060 — 01:22:35.660 · Ramit

Maybe that's part of the meeting. Yeah, yeah.

 

01:22:35.780 — 01:22:44.660 · Chris

I think we could read a chapter and then kind of reflect on it. So, like, what did you learn? What did you learn? What are any ideas from this or any ideas from there. And just I like it. Collaborate.

 

01:22:44.660 — 01:22:48.660 · Ramit

So you're going to come to the meeting both having read chapter one. Yeah.

 

01:22:48.700 — 01:22:49.700 · Grace

Like a book club.

 

01:22:49.740 — 01:22:54.980 · Ramit

It's a book club. But the two, you're going to be having these meetings probably for the rest of your life.

 

01:22:55.060 — 01:22:55.740 · Grace

I hope so.

 

01:22:56.060 — 01:22:56.380 · Chris

Yeah.

 

01:22:56.420 — 01:22:56.940 · Ramit

Great.

 

01:22:56.940 — 01:22:58.540 · Grace

I would like to talk about this frequently.

 

01:22:58.540 — 01:24:17.080 · Ramit

I like your reactions, so let's find a way to enjoy it. We might have a little freaking snack at the beginning. We have an agenda in money for couples that you can use. We always start with a compliment. It always feels good when we start our money meetings, we start with a compliment. It's cheap, costs nothing.

 

It's amazing. You choose which book you want to start with. It's up to you. But you should read both of them. Yep. Okay. You may want to create a set of core values, and one of them is we make informed decisions quickly. That's one. So something needs to be cut out. You cut it out immediately. Next another skill you'll need to work on is creating a united front together against the rest of the world.

 

You can't be united together unless each of you knows what you want. If each of you knows what you want, then you can be united as a team that takes work. And then being united despite what the world says to you. That's a skill. So when family calls both sides, when friends call you to should practice and rehearse what you're going to say.

 

And if you need help, ask your partner. And the other thing is not avoiding the hard discussions. There are a lot of tough discussions ahead of you. I don't look at them as a bad thing. The most important things

 

01:24:18.160 — 01:24:18.960 · Ramit

are hard.

 

01:24:19.000 — 01:24:41.120 · Chris

I know that we're willing to do that and we need to do that, but I know that we're willing to collaborate more instead of me just taking a back seat and me thinking that she's just handling it all. Yeah. Um, so, yeah, I, I think that we we know what we need to do from here on out. I, I think so.

 

01:24:41.160 — 01:24:41.640 · Ramit

I like.

 

01:24:41.640 — 01:24:42.880 · Chris

That. Yeah.

 

01:24:42.920 — 01:25:05.000 · Ramit

Um, earning more is the natural next step. You both are young. You have time. But I would not wait. Increasing your income will dramatically affect affordability for the two of you. Um, like the summer opportunity you mentioned to me, that is an absolute no brainer. It's a yes. There's no discussion about it.

 

01:25:05.040 — 01:25:06.800 · Grace

What about being a Starbucks barista?

 

01:25:06.800 — 01:25:07.200 · Ramit

Why not.

 

01:25:07.200 — 01:25:07.920 · Grace

Love coffee?

 

01:25:07.960 — 01:25:08.360 · Ramit

Why not?

 

01:25:08.400 — 01:25:09.320 · Grace

Got great benefits.

 

01:25:09.370 — 01:25:10.210 · Ramit

There you go.

 

01:25:10.570 — 01:25:12.770 · Grace

Thought about it. Might as well go do it.

 

01:25:12.810 — 01:25:23.890 · Ramit

It's time to start taking the decisions again. We make informed decisions quickly because we have a bigger vision than the two of us are going to be comfortable. We talked about what happens if you make no changes. That's not an option.

 

01:25:23.930 — 01:25:25.250 · Grace

Yeah, not an option.

 

01:25:25.290 — 01:25:30.770 · Ramit

You have to make changes, big changes. And they have to happen fast. Are you on board?

 

01:25:30.810 — 01:25:31.810 · Grace

Yep. On board.

 

01:25:31.850 — 01:26:32.820 · Ramit

Okay. I think it's going to be really hard for Chris and Grace to make the changes that we discussed today, but let's remember that before today, they had never had a single substantive conversation about money. Let's also remember that Chris does not like to be uncomfortable, and being on this show was the definition of uncomfortable for him.

 

So they've already taken a big step. Will they do it? Probably not until their backs are against the wall. Most people do not make self-development changes unless they have to. I don't want them to have 1 or 2 kids and suddenly realize, next month we can't afford diapers. I don't want that, but there's only so much I can say or even do until they realize it for themselves.

 

So I want to thank Chris and Grace for coming on this show. It was not easy. This is a major opportunity for you to change your entire dynamic. I really hope you do it. And now let's take a look at the follow ups.

 

01:26:33.340 — 01:26:55.540 · Grace

This is our reflection from our time with our meet. Our biggest surprise from the session. Mine was probably related to our different childhoods, experiences with money, and how our parents talked about money or lack of conversation around money, and how that has translated into our adulthood, and how we show up for ourselves and in our relationships in relation to money.

 

01:26:55.780 — 01:27:05.260 · Chris

And my biggest surprise was how close our income is to our to our neighbors and the the people locally here in our town.

 

01:27:06.550 — 01:27:35.110 · Grace

Um. And our biggest takeaway. My biggest takeaway probably ties into my biggest surprise. So realizing those patterns and how, you know, I want to take those patterns. And I know my husband wants to take those patterns and change those, um, for our future children and kind of alter those in a more positive way.

 

So having more positive conversations around money, um, and open conversations and being more proactive and changing the patterns that we noticed about our childhood and how we got here.

 

01:27:35.630 — 01:27:45.590 · Chris

Um, and my biggest takeaway, um, is knowing that we need to have more in-depth conversations around our rich life and how we will get there someday.

 

01:27:46.030 — 01:28:04.350 · Grace

Um, and our changes that we'd like to make. I think we both agree that we are wanting to one, you know, read the book, but to have more weekly set meetings on Thursdays at six. Um, about, you know, about our finances and, um, moving forward in a positive direction. Thank you.