276. “I resent carrying our finances. Can we fix this?”

Ramit unpacks how resentment, unequal workloads, and conflicting ideas about money can push a marriage to breaking point, even when the numbers suggest a couple should be doing well.

Ramit Sethi of I Will Teach You To Be Rich speaks with Lauren and Robert, a married couple who have spent years building resentment around work, spending, and who carries the financial load. Lauren works three jobs, often 55–60 hours a week, while managing most of their finances. Robert, a retired Navy veteran who once believed retirement meant he wouldn’t need to work again, has recently returned to work.

On paper, they’re doing better than they think, but they have just $24,000 in savings, around $70,000 in debt, fixed costs at 81%, and almost nothing currently being directed toward savings or investments. Along the way, a $700,000 inheritance, a $40,000 pool scam, a $3,200 bounce house, and a $150,000 pool became major sources of conflict.

Lauren believes Robert needs to earn more. Robert feels like his opinion often doesn’t matter because Lauren earns more. But Ramit quickly discovers that more income isn’t going to solve what’s happening between them. Their resentment has reached the point where they’ve talked about divorce. To move forward, they’ll need to stop keeping score, create a shared vision for their money, and learn how to operate as a team.

A special thanks to DeleteMe for sponsoring this episode. Get 20% off all consumer plans when you go to https://joindeleteme.com/ramit and use promo code RAMIT at checkout.

In this episode we uncover:

• Why Lauren feels like she’s been carrying the financial weight for years
• Why Robert believed retirement meant he wouldn’t need to work again
• How a $700,000 inheritance shaped the life they built together
• Why a second $150,000 pool became a major source of conflict
• Why Robert feels like saying “no” rarely changes the outcome
• Why Lauren struggles to say no to herself and their children
• Why Ramit tells them Robert earning more money won’t fix the real problem
• Why they earn more than they realized but still barely save or invest
• How Robert’s childhood shaped his views on work, scarcity, and spending
• How Ramit helps them rebuild their financial system around partnership
• Whether Lauren and Robert can stop keeping score and start acting like a team

Chapters:

(00:00:00) Introduction

(00:05:09) Lauren receives a $700,000 inheritance

(00:19:00) When the resentment started building

(00:31:59) Ramit reviews their financial numbers

(00:37:06) Why they’re barely saving or investing

(00:50:40) Lauren has been managing the money alone

(00:56:31) They’ve never created a shared financial vision

(01:03:41) Ramit changes how they talk about money

(01:24:39) What their retirement could actually look like

(01:27:21) Rebuilding their Conscious Spending Plan

(01:35:26) Lauren and Robert’s follow-up

 

This episode is brought to you by:

Granola | Try Granola totally free at https://granola.ai/RAMIT.

Notion | Learn more about how Notion can support your business, at https://notion.com/ramit

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LMNT | Get a free LMNT Sample Pack with any order at https://drinklmnt.com/RAMIT

If you’re ready to stop putting off your money goals, Road to $100K gives you a step-by-step plan to reach your first $100,000, focus on what matters, and accelerate your timeline while building your Rich Life. Join Road to $100K at https://iwt.com/100K

Apply to be coached for free on this podcast at https://iwt.com/apply

 

 

Transcript:

00:00:00.040 — 00:00:01.040 · Ramit
Are you both a team?

00:00:01.080 — 00:00:03.640 · Lauren
I feel like I've been carrying the weight for a long time.

00:00:03.680 — 00:00:10.000 · Ramit
You said resentment has been building for years. We've talked about divorce. That's, like, as serious as it gets.

00:00:10.040 — 00:00:16.040 · Lauren
I'm out there busting my ass. I was working, like, 60 hours a week, three jobs, and he wasn't working at all.

00:00:16.040 — 00:00:19.960 · Robert
I retired, so I was like, okay, I can be retired and I'd have to work again.

00:00:20.000 — 00:00:21.800 · Ramit
When did that resentment start?

00:00:21.880 — 00:00:25.240 · Lauren
We were going to put a pool in. He was like, we're not putting a pool in.

00:00:25.280 — 00:00:26.280 · Ramit
How much did the pool cost?

00:00:26.320 — 00:00:27.720 · Lauren
150 grand.

00:00:27.760 — 00:00:33.720 · Robert
She said, I grew up with a pool. I want my kids to grow up with the pool. She'll say, oh, you just don't want our kids to have fun. I'm not the villain, all.

00:00:33.760 — 00:00:36.680 · Lauren
Let's also add that he went to Disney the week before, right?

00:00:36.840 — 00:00:41.880 · Ramit
So what is this? What's happening right now? Like we're talking about you and you're jabbing him about Disney.

00:00:41.920 — 00:00:47.640 · Robert
Yeah, it's scary that we have your inheritance and a 401 K. And that's basically our retirement.

00:00:47.680 — 00:00:51.520 · Lauren
He's worried about investments, but he doesn't invest. It's just me.

00:00:51.560 — 00:00:55.320 · Ramit
Until you to work through this. None of the rest of the matters.

00:00:55.320 — 00:01:01.430 · Lauren
I certainly, like never want to get divorced, but I need some big changes in order to continue.

00:01:03.510 — 00:03:23.850 · Ramit
Listen to this line from Lauren's application. Quote. Resentment has built up as I manage the household finances, family schedule and work 55 plus hours per week and Rob, her husband, works minimally. He has lots of free time. She goes on to say that the only way she sees to fix this is for Rob to make more money.

It's kind of a lot of resentment that's very evident through her words. She further writes, I've gotten extremely frustrated this past year and mentioned divorce. I need major changes. As you can see, the stakes are extremely high, but I will tell you that the income gap is not actually the real problem here.

I noticed that there's a story they've been telling themselves about what that gap means. We're going to get into all of this in detail, but let's take a look at their numbers through their Conscious Spending Plan or CSP assets $474,000. Investments 257,000. Savings 24,000 and debt about 70,000. Total net worth 685,000.

Wow. Their net monthly income is 17,000 or $204,000 in net income. That's a lot of money. Fixed costs are at 81%, which is very high for that income. Investments at zero savings, also at zero guilt free spending. Not even on the CSP. Huh? It's not even here. You had to affirmatively go and erase it for it not to be on here.

So I'm gonna find out what happened there. I have a lot of questions for them, but first, I want to take a moment to shout out this episode sponsor delete me. Delete me as a service that I personally use. And I love it. In fact, I use it for my own personal privacy protection as well as for my parents. If your information is online, you can go on Google and search for your name in your city.

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Delete me a great sponsor of this podcast. Now let's get started with Lauren and Rob. Have the two of you seen this application?

00:03:24.010 — 00:03:25.010 · Lauren
I don't know if you have.

00:03:25.290 — 00:03:29.770 · Robert
Oh, I came home one day and she said, guess what I did? And I said, what? You didn't tell this time?

00:03:29.810 — 00:03:33.490 · Lauren
I don't think so. And I was like, hoping he'd be open to it. And he was okay.

00:03:33.530 — 00:03:48.690 · Ramit
But all right, let me read the application. Because, Lauren, you said resentment has been building for years and you have mentioned divorce. That's like as serious as it gets. When did you fill that application out?

00:03:48.730 — 00:03:51.610 · Lauren
Geez, a few months ago. I guess it wasn't that long ago.

00:03:51.650 — 00:03:54.910 · Ramit
Rob, did you know that she had mentioned resentment and divorce.

00:03:54.910 — 00:04:28.230 · Robert
When we did the interview, it came up. And I kind of made the comment like, I didn't think the big deal was on the table with it. But, you know, that's only my half of the story, obviously. And then that kind of hit home because, uh, Lauren is wife number three, so I've already been divorced twice, so I didn't want to do that again.

And the other two marriages I didn't have kids in or family. So, you know, it was kind of an easier break. And this is, you know, this is my forever home, I guess. I think that kind of

00:04:29.390 — 00:04:36.550 · Robert
resonated with me. Like, okay, let's just work a few hours a day, make some money.

00:04:36.550 — 00:04:42.070 · Ramit
And do you remember the first time you talked about money? Like, seriously talked about money.

00:04:42.070 — 00:04:50.390 · Lauren
I mean, kind of soon because we decided to build a house together after we were dating for six months. Okay, so that happened.

00:04:50.430 — 00:04:52.500 · Ramit
Like, what was that conversation like.

00:04:52.540 — 00:05:01.700 · Lauren
It was in my name. And it was, you know, pretty much with like, my, like, some inheritance money. Um, but we needed more room.

00:05:01.740 — 00:05:03.580 · Robert
Well, we were in a two bedroom condo.

00:05:03.620 — 00:05:04.420 · Lauren
With the dog and.

00:05:04.740 — 00:05:08.980 · Robert
The dog and my friend that retired with me because he needed some.

00:05:09.300 — 00:05:11.220 · Lauren
Place to crash. So it was just, like, tight.

00:05:11.260 — 00:05:12.900 · Ramit
Tell me about this inheritance.

00:05:13.020 — 00:05:26.220 · Lauren
Yeah. So, unfortunately, both my parents passed away. Um, my mom in 2014, she had cancer and then my dad in 2016. And it was, like, very unexpected. I'm sorry. Um, so,

00:05:27.420 — 00:05:43.620 · Lauren
you know, that was tough. Rob met my dad once. Wow. Um, you know, obviously, like, my inheritance led us to be able to kind of build the life that we have and, you know, build a house. And, um, so that's a big piece of what I came into the marriage with.

00:05:43.660 — 00:05:49.620 · Ramit
Do you mind if I ask a few questions about the financial parts of that? Okay. Um, how much was the inheritance?

00:05:49.650 — 00:05:51.130 · Lauren
$700,000.

00:05:51.170 — 00:05:52.770 · Ramit
Okay. Did you expect it?

00:05:52.810 — 00:06:15.250 · Lauren
No. I think especially with my dad. I mean, my mom was sick, and so I figured maybe we would get some money, but, like, she had, she didn't make a ton of money, so I didn't expect, like, a lot. Um, and then my dad, it was just so unexpected. That definitely was not expecting that. I mean, I was like, wow, if there's a lot we can do with this, I think that's when we decided to build the house.

00:06:15.530 — 00:06:18.170 · Ramit
Um, and at this point, the two of you were dating. Dating? Okay.

00:06:18.210 — 00:06:32.370 · Lauren
I think we were feeling pretty committed to each other. I mean, he did propose within a year of us, um, you know, dating. Um, he was. I think you were at a point where you wanted to, like, have a family and kind of had this built in family.

00:06:32.410 — 00:06:33.810 · Ramit
How long have you two been married?

00:06:33.850 — 00:06:36.130 · Lauren
The eight years this year. Okay, that's an 18.

00:06:36.170 — 00:06:37.410 · Ramit
How old are the children?

00:06:37.410 — 00:06:38.850 · Lauren
Two. Five and ten.

00:06:38.890 — 00:06:41.690 · Ramit
Okay. And are the children all from this marriage?

00:06:41.970 — 00:06:44.290 · Lauren
No. My oldest is from a prior relationship.

00:06:44.330 — 00:06:47.530 · Ramit
Got it. Okay. How did you know how much house you could afford?

00:06:47.570 — 00:06:54.880 · Lauren
Probably just looking at, like, the monthly mortgage we could afford. I was working as a nurse. I wasn't a nurse practitioner yet.

00:06:54.920 — 00:07:14.000 · Robert
We actually downsized from what we originally wanted because we actually said we can't afford the house we want, so we'll just rearrange it because it wasn't. It was basically whatever we wanted he was going to build. You know, he gave us set plans and we picked one and there was some customization.

00:07:14.040 — 00:07:18.000 · Lauren
Yeah. So we were like in a pretty good spot with being able to afford the house that we did build.

00:07:18.040 — 00:07:20.120 · Ramit
Okay. So you built a house.

00:07:20.160 — 00:07:24.280 · Lauren
We built that house. We put a nice, beautiful pool in.

00:07:24.320 — 00:07:30.280 · Ramit
Now, I understand that you were the victims of a scam. Oh my God, in the relationship. Can you tell me about this?

00:07:30.480 — 00:07:30.760 · Lauren
Yeah.

00:07:30.760 — 00:07:31.840 · Robert
Has to do with the pool.

00:07:31.880 — 00:08:12.030 · Lauren
Yeah. It does. So when we built that house, by the time the house was ready, we had been dating like a year and three months. And there was this guy working for the, like, excavating crew that went and preyed On multiple people on this street and kind of, like, came up to us. Um, trying to, like, sell us the idea of this, like, beautiful backyard dream.

We're like, yeah. And we were like, naive kind of first time homebuyers. And he, like, dug a hole and we gave him, like, half the money. And he ran off with about $40,000. Gone. Gone.

00:08:12.270 — 00:08:13.230 · Ramit
What'd you do?

00:08:13.590 — 00:08:19.870 · Lauren
We tried to, like, go to the police and pursue, you know, something. And they basically said, it's like.

00:08:19.910 — 00:08:22.950 · Robert
It's the work. It says he won't come back and finish it.

00:08:22.990 — 00:09:01.620 · Lauren
It's a civil matter. We can't do anything about it. And then, like, I would look him up and I'd see things like, I saw a news thing that he, you know, screwed this lady over by, like, you know, selling her a car for $10,000 and then not giving to her. And I was like, wait a minute. He took 40 grand from us, and maybe we were just stupid and giving it to him because we just were, like sold up on the dream or whatever.

But I mean, I guess a lot of people on our street went through very similar things. So this guy was like a professional con artist and that was like devastating. I mean, that was, you know, part of my inheritance money that was like.

00:09:01.660 — 00:09:03.020 · Ramit
That money came from the inheritance.

00:09:03.060 — 00:09:03.700 · Lauren
Yeah.

00:09:04.260 — 00:09:05.940 · Ramit
Wow. What did that feel like?

00:09:05.980 — 00:09:18.620 · Lauren
I just felt like an idiot. I mean, I lost a lot of sleep over it. You know, it was like, eventually we had to just kind of move forward from it. Because after we talked to the police and they said they couldn't do anything.

00:09:18.860 — 00:09:21.180 · Robert
Yeah, they couldn't even locate him. He went back to. Yeah.

00:09:21.820 — 00:09:23.700 · Ramit
And what did the neighbors do?

00:09:24.020 — 00:09:24.580 · Robert
See?

00:09:24.860 — 00:09:27.060 · Lauren
I don't think they got much recourse either.

00:09:27.340 — 00:09:29.100 · Ramit
Yeah. Did anybody talk to each other?

00:09:29.140 — 00:09:42.740 · Lauren
We did. We went up and talked to a few different ones. Yeah. Some of their jobs were, like, smaller. Yeah. Um, and he might have done it, but, like, did a crappy job. He built a basketball court for one house, and the court was like this. He was, like, slanted.

00:09:43.340 — 00:10:26.210 · Ramit
I mean, it's pretty crazy what happened with the pool as a violation. They just bought a house. Suddenly all these people come out of the woodwork trying to extract money from them. A lot of times, things like this happen whenever you make a major purchase or you buy a house or you have children, your name gets put on many, many lists and suddenly your private information is getting shared everywhere.

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00:10:27.730 — 00:10:43.600 · Ramit
and you use promo code Ramit at checkout. Now, handing over $40,000 to this scammer says something about how Lauren and Rob make decisions about money. Listen in as we discover some other impulsive spending habits. Is that the house you live in today?

00:10:43.640 — 00:10:44.480 · Robert
No, no.

00:10:44.560 — 00:10:47.880 · Ramit
Oh, what's that reaction? What happened?

00:10:47.920 — 00:11:14.680 · Lauren
I read some impulsive things along the way. So I think we built it so fast that we realized. Or I realized, like, I didn't really like living out in the sticks where we had built it. Um, and so I was kind of itching to move and found a house that was like a flip, completely different, not a new construction, but also we wanted to have more kids and like, kind of wanted more space.

And so it was a little crazy.

00:11:15.040 — 00:11:17.240 · Ramit
Um, what part of it was crazy?

00:11:17.480 — 00:11:26.080 · Lauren
Just like we built a house and then two years later, I'm like, oh, let's move. You know? And he was like, no way. Mhm. Um, and then I went and looked at a house.

00:11:26.600 — 00:11:33.880 · Ramit
How do you make that decision. Because one of you is like I went out and Rob you're saying no. How did you make that decision together.

00:11:34.400 — 00:11:34.840 · Robert
Ah.

00:11:35.280 — 00:11:38.000 · Lauren
There was a sauna. That's what sold him on the new house.

00:11:38.040 — 00:11:41.740 · Ramit
Oh, you convinced him. Hey, if we go to this house, there'll be a sauna there.

00:11:41.780 — 00:11:43.260 · Lauren
There was one at the house I found.

00:11:43.580 — 00:11:49.180 · Robert
And at the time, we were both commuting 30, 40 minutes to work. And she was like, this is.

00:11:49.380 — 00:11:55.900 · Lauren
Kind of like where we were going to start the kids in school. I was like, I don't think I want to be in this town.

00:11:55.940 — 00:11:59.580 · Ramit
Can I just ask a question like, how did you not think of this before you built that?

00:11:59.620 — 00:12:06.020 · Lauren
Because we built it so fast, I don't think we really thought hard enough about where we wanted to live.

00:12:06.060 — 00:12:11.060 · Ramit
Is this a common thing when it comes to your money? Not thinking ahead? Yes. Rob.

00:12:11.100 — 00:12:16.140 · Robert
You agree? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. More so on that side for me.

00:12:16.500 — 00:12:17.140 · Ramit
More so. On whose.

00:12:17.140 — 00:12:18.500 · Robert
Side? On her side.

00:12:18.540 — 00:12:21.100 · Ramit
Okay, so, Lauren, you're saying you don't really think ahead?

00:12:21.340 — 00:12:23.620 · Lauren
I can be a little impulsive, right?

00:12:23.620 — 00:12:32.900 · Robert
There's times where she'll, like, overanalyze, like, okay, maybe we shouldn't do this. And then other times it's, I come home and there's something new and shiny. Hmm.

00:12:32.940 — 00:12:36.020 · Ramit
What are some other examples of new and shiny things that you impulsively have?

00:12:36.060 — 00:12:38.970 · Robert
Well, the newest one is a bounce house, Which isn't.

00:12:39.210 — 00:12:41.130 · Ramit
Like a full size kids jump in the.

00:12:41.170 — 00:12:41.770 · Lauren
Commercial.

00:12:41.770 — 00:12:42.650 · Robert
With a waterslide.

00:12:42.970 — 00:12:44.970 · Ramit
Wait a minute. How much does that cost? I've never.

00:12:45.010 — 00:12:45.810 · Robert
I don't even know.

00:12:45.850 — 00:12:47.050 · Lauren
He doesn't even know. Yeah.

00:12:47.210 — 00:12:49.290 · Ramit
Oh, let's reveal it today for the first time.

00:12:49.330 — 00:12:56.090 · Lauren
So I know I was like, did I really just do this before we go on the podcast? How much? So it was $3,200.

00:12:56.130 — 00:12:58.850 · Robert
I thought way less than that, but that's okay.

00:12:58.890 — 00:13:00.450 · Ramit
And how did you pay for that?

00:13:00.490 — 00:13:09.490 · Lauren
I picked up a weekend of call. Um. Extra call. Hoping. And it was great. I didn't even get any calls, and it pretty much paid for it.

00:13:09.690 — 00:13:14.770 · Ramit
Got it. And is this a common thing where, you know, I want to buy this big thing? I'll pick up an extra shift or two.

00:13:14.810 — 00:13:15.330 · Lauren
Yes.

00:13:15.370 — 00:13:19.890 · Ramit
Yeah. Okay. And, Rob, what is your reaction? You know, you come home and you see a bounce house.

00:13:20.170 — 00:13:28.410 · Robert
Well, I even I just was told, hey, you have to be home. There's a bounce house being delivered. I said, oh, we rented a bounce house. And she said, no, we bought one.

00:13:28.450 — 00:13:30.090 · Ramit
What's your reaction to that?

00:13:30.130 — 00:13:32.890 · Robert
I, I pest I kind of hated it, but.

00:13:32.930 — 00:13:34.170 · Ramit
Did you say that?

00:13:34.370 — 00:13:43.200 · Robert
I did. I said, can we return it? And she said, no, the kids are going to love it. So I said again, can we return it? And

00:13:44.360 — 00:13:52.080 · Robert
I saw her like escalate her answer of, no, it's it's paid for. And I just said, okay, got it.

00:13:52.120 — 00:13:58.920 · Ramit
What do you think this dynamic is around the bounce house? What role did each of you play in this Lauren.

00:13:58.960 — 00:14:00.120 · Lauren
Just buying.

00:14:00.120 — 00:14:03.760 · Ramit
It okay. So you just bought it. All right. And then what was your role Rob.

00:14:03.840 — 00:14:12.440 · Robert
Just dealing with it like okay that's that's the way it is I guess we have a bounce house. Let me figure out where I'm going to store it now.

00:14:12.480 — 00:14:13.120 · Ramit
Got it.

00:14:13.120 — 00:14:26.760 · Lauren
I like seeing my kids outside having fun off screens like they have this amazing life. Yeah. And I worked hard for it and I continue to work hard for it.

00:14:26.800 — 00:14:35.470 · Robert
Some of the issues is and we'll just she'll be like, it's my money or I earned it. So I want to spend it the way I want to.

00:14:35.510 — 00:14:35.830 · Ramit
Is that.

00:14:35.830 — 00:14:36.830 · Lauren
True? Yeah.

00:14:36.910 — 00:14:43.190 · Ramit
Okay. And is that working for your finances? No. All right.

00:14:43.230 — 00:15:12.150 · Lauren
Because I work so hard, I work a lot. And I think I get, like, resentful or annoyed when he does say no to things because I'm like, well, I'm the one making the money. I'm the one paying the mortgage. Like, I don't like to say no when I want something. But also I feel like I prioritize what I spend my money on. Like, I don't have like designer clothes and bags and all that kind of stuff.

Like, I really like to spend money on my kids, mostly.

00:15:12.190 — 00:15:13.350 · Ramit
So what do you do?

00:15:13.390 — 00:15:18.830 · Lauren
Well, I'm, like, afraid to ask him or tell him about, like, ask him about purchases because I know he'll say no.

00:15:18.870 — 00:15:19.990 · Ramit
Well, he did say no.

00:15:20.030 — 00:15:21.190 · Lauren
Yeah. Afterwards.

00:15:21.750 — 00:17:05.810 · Ramit
I'm picking up a lot of clues right away. In this conversation, Lauren makes the money and therefore makes the rules about money. Rob says no, but gets overruled. I suspect they're trapped in a particular dynamic of the parent child dynamic, which kind of looks harmless sometimes even funny, like with their bounce house.

But this exact pattern often builds resentment on both sides over the years. The one in the parent role gets exhausted carrying everything alone. It's also not attractive to be the parent to someone who's supposed to be your intimate partner. The one in the child role feels like their voice doesn't actually matter, and it's clear that they both are carrying a lot of resentment in this conversation.

You can see it in the little jabs they keep throwing at each other. We're going to dig into that resentment right after this. One of the most helpful things that I've started using in the last year or so is meeting notes that automatically tell me what the next action steps are. Clear notes really matter.

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00:18:12.160 — 00:18:14.280 · Ramit
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00:18:16.160 — 00:18:20.360 · Ramit
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00:18:21.080 — 00:18:22.400 · Ramit
One of my early.

00:18:22.400 — 00:19:01.349 · Ramit
Accomplishments with money was being able to invest consistently enough to have $100,000 in my portfolio. Once that happened, the money started really compounding and I could see it. I could even feel it. Now, I want you to get to the point where you have invested $100,000 of money, and you can watch that thing really start to snowball.

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00:19:03.030 — 00:19:10.390 · Ramit
100 K. In the application you wrote about resentment. When did that resentment about money start?

00:19:10.510 — 00:19:18.630 · Lauren
I think a big part was when we did move, and I just like, assumed we were going to put a pool in. And he was like, we're not putting a pool in.

00:19:18.670 — 00:19:20.030 · Ramit
How much did the pool cost?

00:19:20.430 — 00:19:21.910 · Lauren
150 grand.

00:19:21.950 — 00:19:23.510 · Ramit
Did you know that when you wanted it?

00:19:23.550 — 00:19:27.060 · Lauren
We I knew like maybe a little over a hundred, but okay.

00:19:27.100 — 00:19:39.580 · Robert
That's just another aspect of me saying, do we really need it? And she said, I grew up with a pool. I want my kids to grow up with a pool. And I said, well, I didn't grow up with a pool and I'm still alive and kicking.

00:19:39.620 — 00:19:41.340 · Ramit
Like, when did that come up?

00:19:41.380 — 00:19:45.020 · Lauren
Oh, right after we bought it, pretty much. I was like, okay, so when are we going to put the pool?

00:19:45.060 — 00:20:00.220 · Robert
Okay? And I said, what do you mean, why would we? We just put a brand new pool in a brand new house. Why would we not look for a house that had a pool already in it? And she said, well, it's we're here and now. And

00:20:01.460 — 00:20:09.980 · Robert
it kind of went away. And then next thing you know, I have these guys coming surveying the land for a pool. And I said, why are these guys here?

00:20:09.980 — 00:20:15.980 · Lauren
I want both of us to be happy, and I don't want him to resent me for just making decisions without him.

00:20:16.020 — 00:20:19.620 · Ramit
Okay. And do you resent Lauren?

00:20:22.020 — 00:20:31.040 · Robert
I wish I had more of a say. Sometimes I don't feel validated because I'll say no and it just happens anyway. And

00:20:32.200 — 00:20:35.960 · Robert
I guess that can build the resentment. But I don't always say no either.

00:20:36.200 — 00:20:39.120 · Ramit
Do you think saying no makes you a bad guy sometimes?

00:20:39.120 — 00:20:55.400 · Robert
Because that's how it just comes off. Like because she'll say, oh, you just don't want our kids to have fun. I'm like, well, do they really need a a $3,200 bounce house to have fun? After we just bought a new Power Wheels and a go kart? I'm not the villain.

00:20:55.640 — 00:20:59.000 · Lauren
Let's also add that he went to Disney the week before by himself.

00:20:59.200 — 00:21:13.760 · Ramit
What is this? What's happening right now? Like we're talking about you and you're jabbing him about Disney. Yeah, we're certainly going to talk about whatever robs Scott with money. We'll talk about that. But I like to talk about you for a second. Is saying no in your relationship a bad thing?

00:21:14.160 — 00:21:22.320 · Lauren
Yeah. I mean, it's I guess so. I don't know, I'm having a hard time answering it. How come? Because I want him to be, like,

00:21:23.390 — 00:21:37.390 · Lauren
Happy with the way we spend our money. And, you know, I want us both to feel good about things. Um, but I also I get resentful when he says no, and he's not, like, paying the bills.

00:21:37.430 — 00:21:38.950 · Ramit
What about when you say no?

00:21:38.990 — 00:21:41.030 · Lauren
I don't think I say no much.

00:21:41.110 — 00:21:42.870 · Ramit
Got it. Do you ever say no?

00:21:42.910 — 00:21:43.590 · Lauren
Pretty rare.

00:21:44.030 — 00:21:45.990 · Ramit
Huh? You ever say no to your kids?

00:21:46.030 — 00:22:01.510 · Lauren
I mean, I feel like about certain things, like, um. I don't want them to be, like, spoiled brats and just have everything material. And it's not about that so much, because otherwise they do pretty much get whatever they want.

00:22:01.670 — 00:22:02.590 · Ramit
Lauren. You're smiling.

00:22:02.630 — 00:22:07.070 · Lauren
I'm just laughing at how much the bouncy house has come up on this. Yeah.

00:22:07.790 — 00:22:10.590 · Ramit
Why? Why? Hold on. Why are you laughing about it, though?

00:22:10.630 — 00:22:22.740 · Lauren
It's making me laugh. I was out there last weekend with my kids on it. Just watching them spend the whole day out there and be tired out. And like the words that came to my mind where like, this is my rich life.

00:22:22.780 — 00:22:24.420 · Ramit
This is my rich life. So.

00:22:24.740 — 00:22:25.740 · Lauren
So it's okay.

00:22:26.100 — 00:22:26.540 · Ramit
Ah,

00:22:27.780 — 00:22:34.860 · Ramit
is that how it works? If something feels good to us, it is our rich life. So we can buy it.

00:22:34.900 — 00:22:38.820 · Lauren
Yes. If I'm not going into, like, credit card debt over it.

00:22:39.020 — 00:22:46.060 · Ramit
So as long as I'm not going into credit card debt, I can get it. If I say it's my rich life.

00:22:48.060 — 00:22:48.740 · Lauren
Yes.

00:22:48.820 — 00:22:50.780 · Ramit
That's it. You look pained right now.

00:22:50.900 — 00:22:52.060 · Lauren
Yeah, I feel pained.

00:22:52.100 — 00:22:52.580 · Ramit
Why?

00:22:52.620 — 00:22:59.140 · Lauren
Just because it sounds like. Jeez. Like she can't say no to herself or say no to her kids or.

00:22:59.620 — 00:23:00.380 · Ramit
That's true.

00:23:00.540 — 00:23:01.060 · Lauren
Yeah.

00:23:01.060 — 00:23:02.380 · Ramit
You can't. You told me that.

00:23:02.420 — 00:23:03.100 · Lauren
Yeah.

00:23:03.620 — 00:23:05.500 · Ramit
So what's painful about that?

00:23:05.580 — 00:23:08.820 · Lauren
I guess it's, like, a little bit embarrassing that I don't have the restraint to.

00:23:08.900 — 00:23:10.460 · Ramit
What do you think the problem is here?

00:23:10.500 — 00:23:18.500 · Lauren
I mean, like, lack of communication, but also just, like, lack of equality and contributing.

00:23:18.500 — 00:23:20.170 · Ramit
Got it. So the income is a problem as well?

00:23:20.210 — 00:23:49.610 · Lauren
Yeah, well, he was home with our babies. Like, we decided to have him be a stay at home dad, which worked for a while. But then when the youngest went to school, I was like, okay, you need to do something now, you know, he retired from the Navy. If he didn't have kids, he could probably live off that fine. But with three kids, like I needed him to work and I was getting resentful because I was working like 60 hours a week, three jobs, and he wasn't working at all.

So I'd come home and be like, sitting on the couch.

00:23:49.610 — 00:24:42.520 · Robert
Well, it's like I retired. So I was like, okay, I can be retired and not have to work again. The hard truth was, I have to work. It took a while for me to realize that I needed to bring in something. Got it. And I think the biggest pushback I was giving to her is like, well, I'm not going to make as much as she is going to make like the job career I took.

It's just this I'm a I'm a chef is not major money. I mean, okay, I'll go make my $23 an hour. It's not. It's not the best. Well, I get a raise. Maybe eventually, but I'm never going to make the same as she does. Like, what's what's it matter? And she would be like. Anything you make is something. It's better than zero.

And it took, it took, you know, a couple kicks in the, in the back to get me to realize that. And so I did. And it does it it does help.

00:24:42.560 — 00:25:09.360 · Lauren
I think because we have been through a lot of therapy in the past year and like done a lot of communicating. And Rob has made some big changes like he did get a job. We're both like feeling a lot better. Like we both go to a gym now together. Just we're kind of in a better place. Great. Um, you know, and I certainly, like, never want to get divorced.

I never want to break up my family. I love Rob, but I needed, like, some big changes in order to continue.

00:25:09.400 — 00:25:11.840 · Ramit
Got it. Are you on the same page with money right now?

00:25:12.040 — 00:25:13.000 · Lauren
Not quite.

00:25:13.040 — 00:25:19.470 · Ramit
Okay. What do you think the solution is for the problem as you've described it today. Rob, I'll start with you on this one.

00:25:19.470 — 00:25:29.710 · Robert
Just open communication where, you know, I think we wouldn't be so impulsive. Maybe she would be okay. She would think about it a little bit more.

00:25:29.750 — 00:25:45.590 · Lauren
Okay, I agree with that. And I do think he needs to work. I don't not necessarily like make a ton of money, but I think if I'm working three jobs and our kids are in school, then it is reasonable for him to be working at least 30 hours a week or so.

00:25:45.630 — 00:25:47.710 · Ramit
Okay, Robert, are you cool with that?

00:25:47.750 — 00:25:54.750 · Robert
I am and I am okay. I'm picking up more shifts and I'm open to it. I rearranged schedules so I could work more.

00:25:54.750 — 00:25:56.190 · Ramit
And so this sounds good.

00:25:56.230 — 00:25:56.750 · Robert
Yeah, right.

00:25:56.790 — 00:25:58.390 · Ramit
Let's take the win. Hold on. Let's take the win.

00:25:58.430 — 00:26:03.510 · Lauren
It's kind of like new him working this much. So I'm just hoping that it lasts.

00:26:03.550 — 00:26:12.030 · Ramit
Huh? Like you wanted him to work. He said yes, he's actually working. But now you have a new worry, which is? I'm just worried it's not going to last.

00:26:12.070 — 00:26:19.100 · Lauren
No, it is great. Like that's what I said before is like, he's made a lot of changes. And I appreciate that.

00:26:19.140 — 00:26:19.700 · Ramit
Cool.

00:26:19.740 — 00:26:55.700 · Robert
When I started working, there was a little bit of like, you're only going to do two days a week. And I was like, well, okay, I'll pick up more. You know, I rearranged the schedule and now I'm working more. And I think that's what drove her away from the resentment and divorce aspect, because she saw that I was willing to change and work.

And I do like where I work. It's, you know, I work at a rehab center cooking food for people struggling. And it's not the best money in the world, but it's fulfilling. And she just appreciates it. And that made me happy.

00:26:55.700 — 00:27:01.740 · Ramit
And that's cool, I like that. Lauren, now that I know what Rob does for a living, what do you do for a living?

00:27:01.780 — 00:27:04.020 · Lauren
I'm a psychiatric nurse practitioner.

00:27:04.060 — 00:27:07.460 · Ramit
Got it. And you mentioned you work multiple jobs. What are those jobs?

00:27:07.500 — 00:27:23.800 · Lauren
Yeah. So I have one, like, day job, my main hospital. I, um, I work in a day program with pregnant and postpartum women, and then I do a telehealth job on the side that's a similar population. And then I teach some undergrad courses at the University of Rhode Island.

00:27:23.840 — 00:27:28.800 · Ramit
Got it. Okay, great. And you mentioned that's like 55 to 60 hours a week. Is that right?

00:27:28.840 — 00:27:30.120 · Lauren
Yeah, tends to be.

00:27:30.160 — 00:27:31.200 · Ramit
Do you like working?

00:27:31.240 — 00:27:31.920 · Lauren
I do.

00:27:31.960 — 00:27:35.040 · Ramit
Okay. And do you like working a lot of hours or. No.

00:27:35.080 — 00:27:48.720 · Lauren
Yeah. Like I like to stay busy. It's good for my mental health. I just don't want to be, like, absent in my kids lives. Like I want to be home with them at night. And, um. But I'm definitely, like, not a stay at home mom. I need to work.

00:27:48.760 — 00:27:54.000 · Ramit
Okay. What do you notice about the role each of us playing in this conversation?

00:27:54.040 — 00:27:56.600 · Lauren
I'm feeling good. Guilty. Kind of like.

00:27:56.640 — 00:27:57.560 · Robert
You're on the offensive.

00:27:57.600 — 00:28:19.070 · Lauren
Like he always says, I'm. I'm like a bull in a China shop. Like, I just, you know, I can be impulsive, I make decisions. I don't like being told. No. I just kind of, like, take my stance and like, stick to it. And I don't want to disregard his feelings or opinions, but I guess I do.

00:28:19.110 — 00:28:19.550 · Ramit
Okay.

00:28:19.590 — 00:28:20.550 · Robert
I am

00:28:22.270 — 00:28:23.950 · Robert
the sheep. Like, I just.

00:28:23.990 — 00:28:24.390 · Ramit
What does that.

00:28:24.390 — 00:28:27.950 · Robert
Mean when there's certain decisions she makes? No matter what I say,

00:28:29.150 — 00:28:45.390 · Robert
eventually I'm just going to have to cave and just let it be and then figure out how to cope and get over the I don't even know what to say, I guess resentment or just the feeling not valued. Valued, I guess.

00:28:45.430 — 00:28:46.270 · Ramit
Is that how you feel.

00:28:46.270 — 00:28:49.750 · Robert
When it comes to decision making for money? Yes.

00:28:49.790 — 00:28:51.230 · Ramit
Well, that's what we're talking about, right?

00:28:51.230 — 00:28:51.750 · Robert
Yes.

00:28:51.790 — 00:28:56.030 · Ramit
Do you do you feel valued or not valued when it comes to money in your relationship?

00:28:56.390 — 00:29:09.540 · Robert
I feel undervalued when it comes to big decisions. Sometimes it's like, why bother? Because she's going to make the decision on it and she's just going to go with it. And I rather just deal with it and get over it then

00:29:10.780 — 00:29:14.460 · Robert
cause a huge fight. Which probably isn't the smartest thing.

00:29:14.500 — 00:29:18.380 · Ramit
Okay. If you're the sheep in this relationship, what does that make Lauren?

00:29:18.420 — 00:29:22.340 · Robert
She's the wolf. She's the bear. She's. Wow. She's the predator.

00:29:22.380 — 00:29:25.140 · Ramit
Like she's the predator and you're the prey.

00:29:25.260 — 00:29:25.780 · Robert
That's right.

00:29:25.820 — 00:29:31.660 · Ramit
That's quite an interesting marital arrangement, right? Right. I don't think I've ever heard that one before. Lauren, do you agree?

00:29:31.700 — 00:29:33.180 · Lauren
I'm not preying on you.

00:29:33.180 — 00:29:35.940 · Ramit
If your animals. What are you and what is he?

00:29:35.980 — 00:29:45.580 · Lauren
I think I'm like a lioness. I'm strong and independent, and I do the hunting. You're the lion. You're just hanging out.

00:29:45.980 — 00:29:46.780 · Ramit
Well, he's the lion.

00:29:46.820 — 00:29:49.820 · Lauren
Relaxing. Yeah, I'm doing the hunting.

00:29:49.860 — 00:29:51.740 · Robert
Okay, I wish I was the law.

00:29:51.780 — 00:30:03.580 · Ramit
That's interesting. Yeah. So you're the one who's working, hunting. I think you're intimating about. You're making the money. And then the lion. The male lion does what.

00:30:03.700 — 00:30:06.020 · Lauren
He's, like, chilling a lot of the time. Okay.

00:30:06.220 — 00:30:09.610 · Robert
Now lions, they keep. They keep the debt in in order.

00:30:09.650 — 00:30:15.770 · Ramit
I feel this animal metaphor has gone way off track. Yeah, like we all have a different definition of what a lion is like. All right.

00:30:16.970 — 00:32:08.110 · Ramit
Okay. This is what's actually driving the parent child dynamic. It's not just about the income gap. It is the stories they have built around it. The stories that we tell ourselves about money can become deeply ingrained in everything we do, and often they don't even reflect the actual numbers. Lauren has a story that goes like this I work really hard.

I make a lot of money, so he needs to work. Okay, that's a story. Another story that's a little deeper for her is I make all this money so I get to call the shots. And then we have Rob, whose story is. Well, I'll never make as much as Lauren, so what's the point? I can't contribute equally. What I find striking is that if we just flipped the genders on this, we would see it in a very different light.

Think about it. How would you see this if the genders were reversed. I also think it's quite interesting. And while these stories might be true, they're also irrelevant because there are plenty of couples where one partner earns way more than the other ever could. So what? That doesn't mean that only the higher earner makes all the rules, that only the high earner has all the power, that the other person should not work at all, because they can never equal what their other partner does.

No, it means that we need to go deeper than these superficial stories and ask, what kind of life are we trying to create? Do we even need two incomes? Why? What are the trade offs? What does it mean for the type of rich life we are trying to build? But right now they're just living here, high up in the clouds, living in stories that may or may not even be true in any way.

They're irrelevant. I want to live in your rich life, not in some story that you're telling yourself. Now let's get into the numbers. Rob, can you read off the word in bold and then the number next to it for this entire box, please.

00:32:08.310 — 00:32:31.270 · Robert
Sure. So that's assets $474,094. Investments 257,316. Savings 24,000. Debt 69,992. Total net worth. Total net worth is. What's that? 685 and $418.

00:32:31.270 — 00:32:34.110 · Ramit
$685,000. What do you think about those numbers?

00:32:34.110 — 00:32:37.270 · Robert
I like them, I would love them to be more.

00:32:37.270 — 00:33:04.340 · Lauren
I don't think it's terrible like I we are in credit card debt, which I am like very proud of because we've had times where we did get in credit card debt. I miss when we were at more like $1 million, you know, but we have little kids life and we have a nice house with a pool. Um, yeah. I just, I feel okay with them, but I want it to grow as we age.

00:33:04.500 — 00:33:08.620 · Ramit
Got it. And you're feeling about these numbers? What word would you use?

00:33:08.780 — 00:33:22.460 · Lauren
I'm proud that I feel like I didn't just blow my inheritance. Um. And I know that, like, I've worked really hard my entire life, so, um, wish I had more in savings. Maybe I'm not great at saving. Mm.

00:33:22.700 — 00:33:30.580 · Ramit
Okay, let's take a look at the income. Um, this time, Lauren, can you read off your combined gross monthly income, please?

00:33:30.860 — 00:33:33.220 · Lauren
$13,500.

00:33:33.260 — 00:33:34.540 · Robert
Okay, that's.

00:33:34.580 — 00:33:43.900 · Ramit
$162,000 a year. But I don't think you filled that out correctly because I don't have one partner's gross income. Is that you, Rob?

00:33:43.900 — 00:33:48.500 · Robert
Probably. I don't see my my pension disability up there.

00:33:48.540 — 00:33:52.300 · Ramit
So that's not right. Do you know the number, Lauren?

00:33:52.340 — 00:33:59.060 · Robert
Well, I just looked at it this morning. It was about $4,400. That's what I get just from my my retire.

00:33:59.140 — 00:34:00.260 · Lauren
Not your retirement.

00:34:00.260 — 00:34:06.170 · Ramit
I don't think that could be because your net is 6562, so it's the gross has to be higher.

00:34:06.210 — 00:34:09.370 · Lauren
Oh yeah. So that's our gross monthly income. Sorry we messed it up.

00:34:09.409 — 00:34:23.850 · Ramit
That's okay. Let's just fix it right now. I don't mind if your CSP is wrong. Everybody gets your CSP wrong the first time. It's like learning how to draw for the first time. It's going to be wrong. Don't worry about it. That's why we get to do this together. And I get to show people how to make a few corrections, so no problem at all.

00:34:23.850 — 00:34:26.290 · Lauren
I don't think we know the gross, because.

00:34:26.370 — 00:34:27.690 · Ramit
If you tell me the net, we can.

00:34:27.730 — 00:34:30.090 · Lauren
Yeah, one part's taxed, one part's not.

00:34:30.129 — 00:34:53.570 · Ramit
So just for easy math, I don't want to do. This part's taxed, and this part's not. It's just too confusing. Let's just ballpark it and say, like, 9000 a month. Gross. Okay. Gross. That's everything. Minus taxes, blah, blah, blah. It's fine. That tells me that ballpark your household income is like 250 to $270,000 a year.

Did you know that from the looks on your faces, I think the answer is no.

00:34:53.570 — 00:34:54.450 · Lauren
No, no.

00:34:54.810 — 00:34:56.330 · Ramit
Okay. What does that tell you.

00:34:56.370 — 00:35:07.790 · Lauren
We're doing okay. The fact that we don't know it. It's pretty, which is kind of crazy, I feel like, because I'm always so, like on the spreadsheet that I'm surprised that I didn't know it.

00:35:07.830 — 00:35:09.830 · Ramit
I see this multiple times a month.

00:35:09.830 — 00:35:19.550 · Lauren
Well, I think just one other part is probably like the I mean, that's only maybe 24,000 a year, but the two grand a month is like pretty new for me working. So maybe.

00:35:19.990 — 00:35:22.510 · Ramit
How much did you think your income was? Household?

00:35:22.510 — 00:35:25.430 · Lauren
I thought we were like a little over 200, so.

00:35:25.550 — 00:35:27.550 · Ramit
We were off by 50 to $70,000.

00:35:27.590 — 00:35:28.030 · Lauren
Yeah.

00:35:28.310 — 00:35:33.110 · Ramit
If you're making 70 K more than you thought you were, you should what?

00:35:33.190 — 00:35:34.510 · Lauren
Know it and feel better.

00:35:34.510 — 00:35:41.710 · Ramit
You should feel better. Do you feel better now that you discovered you just. Yeah. You do. Yeah. Because it didn't change any of the rest of your financial situation.

00:35:41.750 — 00:35:46.830 · Lauren
No. I mean, I guess just overall thinking, I just didn't think it was that high.

00:35:47.150 — 00:35:47.710 · Ramit
Okay.

00:35:47.750 — 00:35:51.190 · Robert
Rob I look at it, I'm like, it's that high. What?

00:35:51.430 — 00:35:51.790 · Lauren
Where is.

00:35:51.790 — 00:35:52.670 · Robert
It? Where's it going?

00:35:52.710 — 00:35:54.070 · Ramit
What do you think I.

00:35:54.430 — 00:35:56.510 · Lauren
Well there's mindless.

00:35:56.740 — 00:36:02.860 · Robert
Yeah, definitely fixed costs that we could. That we're not realizing is sucking us dry.

00:36:02.900 — 00:36:07.420 · Lauren
I, I don't think it's fixed cost. I think it's like. Occasional things here and there that we buy.

00:36:07.460 — 00:36:11.660 · Ramit
Can I just point something out that happened? Didn't you come on this show, Lauren? Wanting to reduce your fixed costs?

00:36:11.700 — 00:36:21.820 · Lauren
Well, I don't think cutting down the costs. I think adding his income to decrease our percentage is what I was thinking about with.

00:36:21.860 — 00:36:26.980 · Robert
Right. But on that spreadsheet, he has my income and it's showing 270.

00:36:27.020 — 00:36:36.220 · Ramit
270 for both of you. Right? Not for one. Yeah. Okay. Let's continue. Your fixed costs are what's that number?

00:36:36.860 — 00:36:37.860 · Lauren
81%.

00:36:37.900 — 00:36:39.100 · Ramit
What do you think of that?

00:36:39.340 — 00:36:40.140 · Lauren
It's too high.

00:36:40.300 — 00:37:17.970 · Ramit
It's too high. It's it's too high for two reasons. Number one, that number should be ideally, in my opinion, between 50 to 60%. Two, you all make a ton of money. So when you make a ton of money, that number naturally comes down because the price of bread is the price of bread. Even if you get a really nice house.

Generally your fixed cost will come down as your income. So why is it so high? We're going to dig into that. Your investments are at zero, although you do contribute $500 a month to a 401 K. So effectively you're investing $6,000 a year. That's it.

00:37:17.970 — 00:37:23.490 · Robert
That's my scariest thing when I look at those. I don't know if I've ever really told her that either.

00:37:23.650 — 00:37:24.810 · Ramit
Why don't you tell her right now?

00:37:25.010 — 00:37:33.570 · Robert
It is scary that, you know we have your inheritance and a 401 K, and that's basically our retirement fund, which

00:37:34.650 — 00:37:37.490 · Robert
isn't really great.

00:37:37.650 — 00:37:39.090 · Ramit
Why does it scare you, Rob?

00:37:39.130 — 00:37:46.929 · Robert
Ah, because, you know, I always try to be the. Oh, we're okay. Like, which probably is

00:37:47.970 — 00:38:04.680 · Robert
not good because that probably helped build that resentment that you had towards me, because I never gave you the validation of that fear. Because it's there, I have it. We need to fix it.

00:38:04.720 — 00:38:05.600 · Ramit
What do you think, Laura?

00:38:05.880 — 00:38:28.000 · Lauren
I'm baffled because I'm the only one investing. He's not putting any money into investments. We have the security of his pension, which won't go away. Of, like $4,400 a month. But I'm baffled. He's worried about investments, but he doesn't invest. He doesn't contribute anything to investments. It's just me.

00:38:28.480 — 00:38:34.920 · Robert
And I don't know how or what would be the best way to do it.

00:38:34.960 — 00:38:36.200 · Ramit
It's not about tactics.

00:38:36.240 — 00:38:40.040 · Lauren
Yeah. I mean, I think I could contribute a higher percentage.

00:38:40.040 — 00:38:41.600 · Ramit
Not about tactics. I don't care about that.

00:38:41.640 — 00:38:42.200 · Lauren
But like.

00:38:42.240 — 00:38:43.160 · Ramit
You're baffled.

00:38:43.200 — 00:38:46.720 · Lauren
I'm baffled because I've never heard you say that.

00:38:47.120 — 00:38:47.560 · Ramit
Why is.

00:38:47.560 — 00:38:49.520 · Lauren
That? Because we haven't talked about it.

00:38:49.720 — 00:38:50.720 · Ramit
Well, why?

00:38:50.920 — 00:38:51.990 · Lauren
Because we're afraid.

00:38:52.270 — 00:38:52.830 · Ramit
Why?

00:38:53.270 — 00:38:56.590 · Lauren
Because, I mean, I do talk about injustice.

00:38:56.830 — 00:38:57.390 · Ramit
Are you afraid?

00:38:57.430 — 00:39:01.749 · Lauren
Why are we afraid? Because we don't want the other person to just

00:39:03.070 — 00:39:04.030 · Lauren
drop us, I don't know.

00:39:04.070 — 00:39:06.470 · Ramit
Just stay on that. You're onto something.

00:39:06.470 — 00:39:12.270 · Lauren
Because there's always, like, a backlash or a conflict that comes up.

00:39:13.310 — 00:39:14.870 · Ramit
And so what do you do instead?

00:39:15.230 — 00:39:16.790 · Lauren
You just avoid talking about it.

00:39:16.830 — 00:39:17.470 · Ramit
Yeah.

00:39:17.550 — 00:39:20.350 · Lauren
Spend it without consulting?

00:39:20.390 — 00:39:20.910 · Ramit
Yeah.

00:39:20.950 — 00:39:30.710 · Robert
Even though we got what we wanted, we still aren't on the same page about it. One person feels validated and the other one is dealing with the aftermath.

00:39:31.790 — 00:39:44.870 · Ramit
Do you see how many threads there are to pull on this? You have built up these defense mechanisms. Just layers and layers of it. And what I'm trying to get at is what's the actual vision that the two of you want? And I don't even think you realize it.

00:39:44.910 — 00:39:47.030 · Lauren
It's been kind of sad, somewhat accurate.

00:39:47.070 — 00:39:53.780 · Robert
Yeah. Like I can't sometimes tell her no. She's just gonna jab me and do it.

00:39:53.820 — 00:40:28.660 · Ramit
And do you do the same thing to her? Like I look at the application. Lauren, you're like. Feel resentment. We've talked about divorce, which is as strong as it gets. I'm like, oh, my God, this is serious. And then, Lauren, I hear you go. Well, it's actually not that bad. You know, he's got a job in the last few months, so we're better than ever.

Like, okay, both of those can be true. But if you bring up the word resentment and divorce, that doesn't disappear in a few months. So I hear confusing mixed messages. I can't imagine what that confusion is like in your relationship.

00:40:28.700 — 00:40:47.140 · Lauren
I wouldn't say we're better than ever. I would say things are improving. Okay. And I think for me, I have. We have cut some things out of the fixed costs. My vision of how to lower our fixed costs is for Rob to bring in more money.

00:40:47.340 — 00:41:06.050 · Ramit
And you mentioned that in your application several times. Yeah, he needs to work, which he is. So in addition to that Rob working, we discovered that the two of you make 50 to $70,000 more per year than you thought you did. So isn't that what you wanted? More money?

00:41:06.370 — 00:41:11.170 · Lauren
Yeah. I'm still, like, a little confused on it. Like I still am. Like, can we really make that much?

00:41:11.210 — 00:41:16.650 · Ramit
Well, let's assume that it's correct because your net monthly income is $17,000.

00:41:16.690 — 00:41:17.170 · Lauren
Correct.

00:41:17.210 — 00:41:39.290 · Ramit
Yeah, that's $204,000 a year net. That's a huge amount of money, especially in the area that you live in. Mhm. So you all are making a lot of money. So is that it. Because that was the number one thing you wanted at least in the application was Rob should work more. Rob's working. Your income is very high. Are we done?

00:41:39.330 — 00:41:46.370 · Lauren
No. Still like even with the money that we do have, what we do with it and making that decision together?

00:41:46.440 — 00:42:25.120 · Ramit
Yes. This is not an income problem. I think you presented it as an income problem. And I think there are some really valid reasons to talk about that. If one person's working 60 hours a week and the other is not working at all. That can be a problem. I can see that. But you camouflaged it with. We need Rob to make more income.

You all make a lot of money. How you make that money? We can discuss how you spend it. We should discuss. But if you are fixated on. This is the solution. Rob could work 40 or 50 hours a week. And I don't actually think that would solve these problems.

00:42:25.160 — 00:42:25.800 · Lauren
Yeah.

00:42:26.320 — 00:44:02.409 · Ramit
I'm actually kind of frustrated in parts of these conversations. I'm frustrated right now. So to make them understand the stakes here, I'm having to ask some really tough questions. Lauren, what do you mean why? Why, why? And I know it can seem aggressive, but I'm doing it for a very specific reason. Yes, a little bit is that I'm frustrated, but I don't want to let them take the easy way out.

I'm not going to let that happen. You can tell a lot about a business owner just in the first few minutes of talking to them. For example, if they are scattered, if they have no plan, if they are hyper focused on the next shiny object, that kind of tells you a lot. On the other hand, if they are focused, cool, methodical, you can tell that they focus on what they can control.

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00:45:34.920 — 00:45:36.680 · Lauren
Yeah. We're not putting money towards savings.

00:45:36.720 — 00:45:45.070 · Ramit
You have less than two months of savings and guilt free spending. How come it's zeroed out?

00:45:45.110 — 00:45:47.030 · Lauren
I feel like I didn't complete it.

00:45:47.070 — 00:45:49.950 · Ramit
How much do you think you're spending on discretionary stuff every month?

00:45:50.150 — 00:45:54.910 · Lauren
Jeez. 2 or 3 grand. I don't know, it's like fluctuates month or month, probably.

00:45:54.950 — 00:45:59.950 · Ramit
What would be some of those examples of things you might spend discretionary on a given month?

00:46:00.350 — 00:46:15.310 · Lauren
Right. Well, like the bounce house was from extra income, but, um, like traveling Disney. Um, I mean, we did have about twice as much in savings and just had to pay our taxes, which was a huge chunk.

00:46:15.350 — 00:46:41.660 · Ramit
We're going to fix the guilt free spending just to see what the number might look like if these numbers were 100% correct. That means the two of you are spending $3,270 a month on guilt free spending. That would be travel, bounce house, Disney trips, any eating out, all of that stuff. 3000 bucks a month. Does that surprise you?

00:46:41.700 — 00:46:45.620 · Lauren
No. I think that sounds maybe about right to me.

00:46:45.700 — 00:46:47.500 · Ramit
Have you been dipping into savings?

00:46:47.540 — 00:47:12.860 · Lauren
Yeah. I mean, we had other properties that we sold. We had rental properties. So this, like, situation where now is kind of like where all the chips fell. Like, we we had a place in Florida that we sold last year, and the value on that dropped about 100 grand from, you know, a few years ago. And I wanted to sell it.

So we've, you know, we've had some losses.

00:47:13.140 — 00:47:14.980 · Ramit
So have you been dipping into savings?

00:47:15.620 — 00:47:24.740 · Lauren
Um, just for our recent tax taxes? Yeah. Other than that, thanks. No. Okay. You can pay the month to month bills.

00:47:24.780 — 00:47:27.140 · Ramit
How much did you dip into savings for taxes?

00:47:27.500 — 00:47:29.740 · Lauren
Um, it was about 20 grand.

00:47:29.780 — 00:47:34.860 · Ramit
Okay, now that we've looked at the CSP, what is your assessment of the numbers?

00:47:34.860 — 00:48:11.730 · Lauren
I think it's okay. I mean, we don't have big debt payments. We don't have a credit card where we're, like, spending all that money on interest. Okay. Like, I'm glad we're not at over 100%, like, spending more than we make, but I think we could do a lot better. And also, like, we have two kids in daycare. So one, we're going to stop having to pay that in September.

And then another one. The other one that'll be actually a couple years later. So I kind of see that in the future. Like I calculated our fixed costs with one less daycare bill. You know, it's like when you have a little kids, it's a high cost time in life, I feel like.

00:48:11.770 — 00:48:13.690 · Ramit
Okay. What do you what's your assessment, Rob?

00:48:13.730 — 00:48:19.290 · Robert
I think it looks good, but it could definitely be better.

00:48:19.330 — 00:48:44.840 · Ramit
Okay. Um, let's look at the fixed cost for a second. So your mortgage is $3,813, which is 22% of gross. That's good, that's good. We'd like to see that number below 88%. Um, 22% is great. Yeah. Good job. Your, um, car payment is $1,715. What's that?

00:48:44.880 — 00:48:55.320 · Lauren
Yeah, I took about 15,000 out. Right? I took the big loan and then paid off a lot of it. Um, so my payment's kind of high, but it will be paid off in not too long.

00:48:55.640 — 00:48:57.720 · Ramit
Can we be specific? I is your car.

00:48:57.760 — 00:48:59.200 · Lauren
It's like 800 a month.

00:48:59.240 — 00:49:02.560 · Ramit
800? Okay. And, Rob, do you have a car payment as well? I do, how much?

00:49:02.600 — 00:49:03.600 · Robert
600.

00:49:03.720 — 00:49:05.920 · Ramit
Okay. What kind of cars?

00:49:05.960 — 00:49:08.360 · Lauren
I have a Tesla model X.

00:49:08.400 — 00:49:12.280 · Robert
Um, I have a Kia Carnival, a minivan.

00:49:12.320 — 00:49:25.960 · Ramit
Okay. Got it. All right. I mean, honestly, with your income, you should easily be able to afford that. So let's look at what the rest of the fixed costs are. We have debt payments of 392. What's that for?

00:49:26.280 — 00:49:28.360 · Lauren
That's just our solar alone.

00:49:28.480 — 00:49:32.560 · Ramit
That's are groceries are at 2000 a month.

00:49:32.560 — 00:49:37.150 · Lauren
I think that's about what we spend on food. I probably entered it incorrectly.

00:49:37.150 — 00:49:39.350 · Robert
I don't think I've 2000.

00:49:39.390 — 00:49:45.430 · Lauren
I was kind of including like, I guess, like if I get lunch at work and stuff, but that wouldn't.

00:49:45.470 — 00:49:46.870 · Ramit
That would go under guilt free spending.

00:49:46.870 — 00:49:47.270 · Lauren
For one.

00:49:47.270 — 00:49:51.750 · Ramit
Yeah. Help me understand this. You track the money. What do you use to track all this stuff?

00:49:51.790 — 00:49:57.150 · Lauren
Like, I could have pulled up probably all the money we spend at, like, BJ's, Walmart, you know, and I didn't.

00:49:57.190 — 00:49:57.710 · Ramit
Why?

00:49:57.950 — 00:50:01.750 · Lauren
Probably because I didn't have time. I work 1,000,000 hours.

00:50:01.790 — 00:50:03.310 · Ramit
What about asking Rob to help?

00:50:03.350 — 00:50:10.750 · Lauren
I don't know if it would have gone done. I don't know, sometimes I feel like I ask him to do things and it just never gets done.

00:50:11.950 — 00:50:14.590 · Ramit
And is this with money specifically.

00:50:15.390 — 00:50:17.150 · Lauren
With, like, different things?

00:50:17.150 — 00:50:19.150 · Ramit
That's specifically what I mean.

00:50:19.150 — 00:50:39.730 · Lauren
There was like when he wasn't working much, I was like, okay, I can hustle and work a lot, but I need you to keep up the house. And he always like, okay, you want everything perfect in the house. I don't keep it up to your standards, But like, no, he wasn't doing anything around the house, so I would come home after working.

He's not working. The house is a mess. Yeah, it was pretty aggravated.

00:50:39.770 — 00:50:40.930 · Ramit
What about money though?

00:50:41.010 — 00:50:44.690 · Lauren
Yeah. I mean, he just he doesn't manage the money at all. Really?

00:50:44.730 — 00:50:46.690 · Ramit
What is managing the money mean to you?

00:50:46.930 — 00:50:49.530 · Lauren
Just knowing like, what's coming in and what's going out.

00:50:49.570 — 00:50:50.490 · Ramit
Just paying the bills.

00:50:50.530 — 00:51:02.730 · Lauren
Paying the bills here. You got he gets his pension income. And like, you know we'll pay off the credit card sometimes if it goes up. But other than that he's got a small amount of bills that he pays. So he does not do a lot.

00:51:02.890 — 00:51:12.050 · Robert
She does a lot of the finances on it. Like, well, once a month, almost without fail. It's like, okay, what what's our credit card bills. What's that?

00:51:12.050 — 00:51:23.610 · Lauren
And it's I think I just kind of do it. And if he showed interest in it, I would probably like do it together with him. But he doesn't really. And then I just like to be in control. So I think I just.

00:51:23.650 — 00:51:32.840 · Robert
I'm actually I don't I think it's just more of laziness like, oh, she's going to do it. So I'll just tell her what she needs to know, and then she'll print it out and she'll show it to me and it'll be like, okay.

00:51:32.840 — 00:52:07.640 · Ramit
I'm gonna give you some feedback. Managing the money means having a vision for what we want in our rich life. Managing the money means knowing our four key numbers cold. Managing the money means we are using our money to make sure we are living our rich life. And that means. Are we investing enough? Are we saving enough?

Are we actually spending on the things we love? That's managing money, not making sure that our mortgage bill gets paid every month. Yeah. How long have you been focused on the day to day?

00:52:07.840 — 00:52:22.880 · Lauren
A while, I think, since we bought like the investment houses and stuff and started to have a less like liquid than we had to kind of watch the day to day. And there was like, you know, definitely times we were living like paycheck to paycheck.

00:52:23.200 — 00:52:26.440 · Ramit
But when was the last time you looked at the big picture?

00:52:26.760 — 00:52:31.350 · Lauren
Well, I feel like I've been worried about the big picture for years.

00:52:31.430 — 00:52:33.030 · Ramit
Worrying is not a stretch.

00:52:33.110 — 00:52:41.630 · Lauren
But it's like pulling from pulling teeth. You know, to get Rob to actually work has been difficult.

00:52:41.630 — 00:52:45.070 · Ramit
And that was the number one thing you wanted Rob to work.

00:52:45.310 — 00:52:46.430 · Lauren
That was a big yeah.

00:52:46.470 — 00:53:02.310 · Ramit
Okay. So Rob's working and I don't want to skip over the frustration because getting a partner to work when you are working a crazy amount of hours, that is not easy. That's frustrating. So Rob's working. Did you magically know the big picture of your money now?

00:53:02.470 — 00:53:04.110 · Lauren
I guess not. I don't know.

00:53:04.150 — 00:53:05.790 · Ramit
I don't know. Has it changed anything?

00:53:06.150 — 00:53:10.550 · Lauren
No, because I don't really know where the income that he's making is going either.

00:53:10.590 — 00:53:11.270 · Ramit
Why not?

00:53:11.310 — 00:53:12.550 · Lauren
We don't use a drawing account. Really?

00:53:12.590 — 00:53:13.750 · Ramit
Are you both a team?

00:53:13.830 — 00:53:18.950 · Lauren
I think we want to be. I feel like I've been carrying the weight for a long time. Mhm.

00:53:19.270 — 00:53:21.829 · Robert
Uh, she definitely is the

00:53:23.110 — 00:53:29.180 · Robert
the money maker of the family. So she definitely carries the more of a financial burden for sure.

00:53:29.300 — 00:53:38.780 · Ramit
Well, she makes more money, right? Let's be clear. But she also, in her own words, manages the money. Right? And in her words, she's asked you to participate, and you have it.

00:53:39.820 — 00:53:45.460 · Ramit
You're not functioning as a team and leads directly to you. Lauren feeling like she's doing it alone.

00:53:45.500 — 00:53:58.940 · Lauren
I feel like I had to, like, dangle the carrot of being like, you know, if you work, we could maybe save towards. We want to go to Disney in Hawaii. Like, I feel like I had to, like, make a goal that he's interested in.

00:53:58.980 — 00:54:01.700 · Ramit
It's the same thing that you did with the sauna.

00:54:01.980 — 00:54:02.660 · Lauren
Yeah.

00:54:02.740 — 00:54:12.540 · Ramit
You have something you want, and then you your role, as you see it, is to convince him because you know that his role is going to be to say no.

00:54:12.580 — 00:54:20.300 · Lauren
I think it's hard for me to take the no seriously when he's not working. But, I mean, I know now he's working. I'm happy about it.

00:54:20.340 — 00:54:38.850 · Ramit
No, just I think you are right that it is hard for you to take him seriously. I agree with that. I think that's actually extremely honest, but I think that you misinterpret that it's a lack of him working because he's working, and you have not changed the way that you think about money, feel about money, or even feel about him.

00:54:38.850 — 00:54:47.770 · Lauren
I mean, there's other reasons too. He was sitting home. He was totally inactive, which means unhappy, like he wasn't happy and fulfilled.

00:54:47.810 — 00:54:50.770 · Ramit
But let's talk about you. Yeah. What did it mean to you?

00:54:50.810 — 00:54:54.730 · Lauren
It meant I was getting very resentful coming home and seeing him sitting on the couch.

00:54:54.730 — 00:54:55.490 · Ramit
Because.

00:54:55.530 — 00:54:57.690 · Lauren
Because I'm out there busting my ass.

00:54:57.690 — 00:54:58.450 · Ramit
And he.

00:54:58.650 — 00:55:13.490 · Lauren
Is sitting on the couch watching TV all day. It's like it didn't matter to him that we increase our, like, wealth. You know, it doesn't matter. It's almost like he doesn't care that I work 60 hours a week, right? You know.

00:55:13.690 — 00:55:24.199 · Robert
I can see how that would pay out. Like, she would come home, see me sitting on my ass, and she just got done working her ass off and

00:55:25.320 — 00:55:43.920 · Robert
doesn't validate what she's doing to provide, especially when I'm not contributing. I think I relied too much with, oh, I get my pension and throw that out and and she. Yeah, it took a while. Yes. It took a while for me to open up and see. Like that was.

00:55:43.920 — 00:55:44.120 · Ramit
How.

00:55:44.120 — 00:55:45.560 · Robert
Long? Um.

00:55:45.840 — 00:55:48.600 · Lauren
21 to 25. So four and a half years.

00:55:48.920 — 00:56:13.200 · Ramit
Things don't magically change overnight when somebody does something you want. I suspect that the two of you did not talk about it. Seriously, what does this mean? Why did I actually want him to work? At the same time, the two of you have to find a way to look forward instead of looking back. Because how many other marriages do you know where they spend their entire rest of their life together?

Just resentful about something that happened ten years ago. 20 years ago?

00:56:13.240 — 00:56:13.880 · Lauren
Yeah.

00:56:14.240 — 00:56:17.360 · Ramit
You both seem like. Wow, you're nodding your head. You know, a lot of people like that.

00:56:17.400 — 00:56:19.000 · Lauren
Yeah, and I don't want that to be us.

00:56:19.000 — 00:56:27.550 · Ramit
But it is you today. My take on this is that until you to work through this, none of the rest of the matters.

00:56:28.710 — 00:57:07.630 · Ramit
What I see are two key things that are at play here. First of all, they have no vision for what their money is, no shared vision whatsoever. It's him versus her and that's it. Second, they have no shared infrastructure. Their accounts aren't joined. The way they look at money is not the same. And if you take a lack of vision, a lack of infrastructure, it's no surprise that they are disconnected about money.

If you were in my chair right now, what would you do? What would your plan of attack be? I want to understand how you grew up, Lauren. What do you remember your family saying about money when you were a kid?

00:57:07.830 — 00:57:47.740 · Lauren
This is where, like, it all stems from. So, you know, growing up, like, we we had a nice, I would say, like, upper middle class. We lived in a nice home. We had a pool. Um, but it was kind of like everything looked great on the outside and was not great on the inside. Like, my dad's family grew up very poor but built a business.

My grandfather and then they did very well and my dad worked really hard. Like, everyone in my family worked very hard. My dad was very controlling with money. So my mom always made a point to say like, get your education, don't depend on a man for money. And I have like stuck to that.

00:57:47.780 — 00:57:50.460 · Ramit
Get your education. And what was the thing about men?

00:57:51.020 — 00:58:00.620 · Lauren
Just like, don't depend on a man for money. Because I feel like she felt very stuck because she didn't make a lot. If she worked like he always made her work, but she didn't make a lot of money.

00:58:00.700 — 00:58:03.940 · Ramit
Do you think that is good advice or bad advice.

00:58:04.300 — 00:58:10.860 · Lauren
To not depend on a man for money? I think that's good advice. Okay, it's probably made me a little too independent, but.

00:58:10.900 — 00:58:11.820 · Ramit
What does that mean?

00:58:11.860 — 00:58:13.700 · Lauren
It's made it hard for me to, like,

00:58:14.980 — 00:58:21.200 · Lauren
manage money in a relationship and, like, open up and let things be like ours.

00:58:21.600 — 00:58:24.440 · Ramit
Mhm. So things like opening up a joint account.

00:58:24.480 — 00:58:37.600 · Lauren
Yeah. Just I have this feeling of like if I'm working so hard and like I want something, especially because most of the time I don't feel like it's for me. But I know I need to like ease up or let go of that.

00:58:37.640 — 00:59:05.320 · Ramit
If the roles were reversed and let's say it's me and I'm working 60 hours a week and I'm making a lot of money, and my wife was a stay at home mom. But the kids are a little older and I'm like, you need to work. And she's like, uh, she takes a couple of years, and then she gets a job working 20, 30 hours a week. And so when I see something I want like $150,000 pool, I go, I'm just going to get it.

What would you say about that?

00:59:05.360 — 00:59:07.600 · Lauren
Maybe not the best decision.

00:59:07.680 — 00:59:08.040 · Ramit
Really?

00:59:08.040 — 00:59:08.880 · Lauren
Why approach?

00:59:08.920 — 00:59:14.600 · Ramit
I mean, I'm the one who's making the money. I'm working all the hours. Why is that not the best approach?

00:59:14.720 — 00:59:20.549 · Lauren
Because it's just going to make the other partner resentful and feel invalidated, and

00:59:21.670 — 00:59:25.950 · Lauren
it's going to cause a lot of conflict stress.

00:59:26.950 — 00:59:28.670 · Ramit
What are you seeing as you say that.

00:59:28.710 — 00:59:34.110 · Lauren
Just like looking at Rob, seeing that like and I don't know, it makes me sad.

00:59:34.870 — 00:59:35.710 · Ramit
You want to tell him?

00:59:35.750 — 00:59:40.950 · Lauren
Yeah. I mean, it makes me sad that you felt like, invalidated. And.

00:59:42.430 — 00:59:44.870 · Lauren
Yeah, that's about all. That's about all I got.

00:59:45.190 — 00:59:48.350 · Ramit
It's okay. That's great. Rob, how do you feel hearing that?

00:59:48.430 — 01:00:13.350 · Robert
That means a lot. Because now she sees it from my eyes. You know, doing this conversation, I see how she didn't feel validated either. Tell her I see it like we're in this together. Uh, I get you work a lot, so you feel like you should do things, but I'm here to. I'm trying to contribute to your team.

01:00:13.900 — 01:00:15.700 · Ramit
Do you talk like that a lot?

01:00:15.740 — 01:00:17.740 · Lauren
Depends how often we're going to therapy.

01:00:17.780 — 01:00:18.380 · Robert
Yeah.

01:00:18.380 — 01:00:19.820 · Ramit
How often is that?

01:00:19.900 — 01:00:23.860 · Lauren
Um, right now we probably don't go, like, super often. Maybe like.

01:00:23.900 — 01:00:26.820 · Robert
Once. So once a month? Yeah. Maybe twice a month.

01:00:26.860 — 01:00:27.700 · Ramit
Once a month?

01:00:27.740 — 01:00:27.980 · Lauren
Yeah.

01:00:28.020 — 01:00:32.340 · Ramit
Not very. I made $204,000 in net. I'll be going at least once a week.

01:00:32.380 — 01:00:39.300 · Lauren
Yeah, I know, it's like I'm not saying everything's great now, but it really helped us get from that bad. I'm glad last year to.

01:00:39.340 — 01:00:44.980 · Robert
And I, you know, I think sometimes she is afraid to ask me about it too.

01:00:45.020 — 01:00:45.660 · Lauren
Like, not.

01:00:45.660 — 01:00:49.620 · Robert
Anymore. Yeah. And I'm always like, okay, let's do it. But I think.

01:00:49.660 — 01:01:17.650 · Ramit
I feel that this passive thing is not working. Rob. Like, why is she the one bringing it up? And she's the one asking and she's the one proposing. Rob. Part of the whole crux of today is you recognizing your passivity and actually stepping up and saying, I'm ready to be an equal partner in this. Really? Equal does not mean you have to earn as much as her.

Equal means you have to be an equal partner. presents, proposals, driving things. Why does she have to be the one driving therapy?

01:01:17.690 — 01:01:19.250 · Robert
That's true, I guess I could.

01:01:19.290 — 01:01:27.930 · Lauren
And in therapy, we were just talking about the same thing over and over because he wasn't making the changes. And the therapist would be like, we're back here again.

01:01:27.970 — 01:01:29.570 · Ramit
That's like this conversation.

01:01:29.930 — 01:01:30.610 · Robert
Yeah.

01:01:31.290 — 01:01:33.769 · Ramit
So what's the strategy going forward? Because

01:01:34.970 — 01:01:41.730 · Ramit
asking, begging, pleading and then just like buying stuff and not telling you that doesn't. Yeah. What's the strategy here.

01:01:41.770 — 01:01:44.490 · Lauren
Joining our money into the joint account.

01:01:44.530 — 01:01:45.890 · Ramit
Yes. What else?

01:01:46.370 — 01:01:47.210 · Robert
Therapy.

01:01:47.410 — 01:01:50.290 · Ramit
Definitely. Good. Keep going I like this.

01:01:50.330 — 01:01:51.810 · Lauren
You working consistently.

01:01:51.850 — 01:01:55.370 · Robert
Right. Which I enjoy working again.

01:01:55.450 — 01:02:03.210 · Ramit
Yes. And now now go back to her. Now. She said you need to work. And you're like, I am working. And now tell her what you need from her.

01:02:03.650 — 01:02:09.170 · Robert
You know, I need you to realize that I'm never gonna be at the same level of income.

01:02:09.170 — 01:02:10.760 · Lauren
So I know what's up.

01:02:11.120 — 01:02:25.280 · Ramit
Rob, why don't you tell her? I need you to recognize that I am working right. I need to take responsibility for not working for years. Yes, but now I am. And I need you to rewrite that story that you are bringing into this conversation. Tell her that.

01:02:25.320 — 01:02:34.920 · Robert
Right. Because you say it a lot. When you know I need Rob to work, I am working, I'm going to work as much as I can.

01:02:35.200 — 01:02:46.040 · Ramit
I think, Rob, you find it difficult to to really say what you want. That's a pattern I've noticed. That's what therapy is for. But are you hearing what Rob wants?

01:02:46.080 — 01:02:49.120 · Lauren
For me to stop saying? Like I need him to work? Yes.

01:02:49.680 — 01:02:51.640 · Ramit
You're operating on an old story.

01:02:51.720 — 01:02:52.960 · Lauren
It's not that old.

01:02:53.800 — 01:02:56.520 · Ramit
Oh, okay. So it's still here. So then you should keep going.

01:02:56.760 — 01:03:12.110 · Lauren
It's just. I think with time and consistency, I'll like. I'm hearing that I need to stop. But, you know, a month ago, it was while I can't Work Monday, Wednesday or Friday because I need to go to the gym at noon.

01:03:12.190 — 01:03:13.310 · Ramit
That's not acceptable.

01:03:13.350 — 01:03:14.030 · Lauren
No.

01:03:14.270 — 01:03:15.870 · Robert
Right. I changed it.

01:03:15.910 — 01:03:23.870 · Lauren
Yeah. So now he's going earlier in the morning. So like, great. I'm seeing changes. It's great. But after years of asking and begging, it takes a little time for me to.

01:03:23.910 — 01:03:25.030 · Ramit
Totally agree.

01:03:25.110 — 01:03:25.910 · Lauren
I buy.

01:03:25.950 — 01:03:42.110 · Ramit
I think the key here is that the two of you have not really grappled with what has happened, both of you. And so like, you can't get over this resentment and you come in here, you're like, oh, we just need like some more money and this and that. Like, that's not, this has nothing to do with this. Like until and then you're not in therapy.

So how are you going to fix it?

01:03:42.150 — 01:03:42.710 · Lauren
Yeah.

01:03:42.990 — 01:04:46.660 · Ramit
We need to rebuild this piece by piece. And it can't be one person driving it because it's been that way, at least financially for a long time, and it actually has not gotten you the results you want. So if it's me steps in this order number one therapy once a week and Rob you're the one driving that, scheduling it, etc..

Two it's money conversations once a week. And each of you is rotating. One of you can do it for once a month. The other can do it for the next month for those four meetings, and you're driving it using the money for couple's agenda. You're flagging the numbers. You're talking about how you feel, and you're actually using that time as well to reflect on the things you learn in therapy and apply them to your finances.

And then it's actually coming up with your vision of a rich life and using your money to live it. One. Two three. Do you think you could do that? Yeah. Cool. It takes a lot, but I think you could as well. Rob, can you tell me what you remember about your family saying when you grew up about money?

01:04:46.700 — 01:05:02.740 · Robert
Almost a complete 180 of Lauren's upbringing. Uh. Only child. My dad died young. I was in seventh grade. Cancer. Um, my mom and dad, not college educated. Mom is good.

01:05:04.140 — 01:05:29.770 · Robert
You know, they just. She works at a nerve. She. Well. Not anymore. She worked in a nursing home. He built tombstones. So, you know, life was good. You know, as far as I could tell. You know, my, you know, my cousins, they had more money and stuff, but never felt like, ostracized for that from the family. You know, uh, I didn't have a lot of toys growing up.

I lived in a very small house. Um.

01:05:29.810 — 01:05:30.650 · Ramit
Were you poor?

01:05:31.610 — 01:05:33.690 · Robert
I don't know if I would say I was poor,

01:05:34.730 — 01:05:52.290 · Robert
uh, very low income. Like there was. No. I never felt like at least my mom never made me feel like it. Like we were struggling to eat or clothe or be evicted from the house. Okay. But, you know, I knew not to ask for

01:05:53.410 — 01:06:33.630 · Robert
the newest, shiniest thing because I didn't want to have my mom struggle to get it or have her tell me no, like we can't afford it. I started working 14 at any off the book jobs like sweeping a candy store. The guy would pay me a few dollars. Just anything just to to bring in money to, you know, to help my mom out.

You know, the family wouldn't have let us struggle, but there was definitely times where, you know, my cousins would go on vacations and we didn't go. And it's funny, you know, I'm a big Disney guy now. But growing up, we went once. That's basically all we could afford.

01:06:33.670 — 01:06:36.310 · Ramit
Like, what did it mean to you to go to Disney as a kid?

01:06:36.350 — 01:06:50.670 · Robert
It was great. It was a family trip. You know, it was. There's still pictures hanging up on the wall of all the family down there. You know, it wasn't just me and my mom and dad. It was my aunts and uncles and cousins. So it was like a family vacation.

01:06:50.830 — 01:06:53.870 · Ramit
Um, and now that you are a Disney guy, what does that mean?

01:06:54.110 — 01:07:05.900 · Robert
Haha. I love bringing the kids there. The kids love it too. You know, they're not the biggest ride goers, but the nostalgia and just the magic. They get swept up and it's fun seeing.

01:07:06.580 — 01:07:07.820 · Ramit
How often have you gone?

01:07:07.860 — 01:07:19.540 · Robert
Oh, it's been a while for a fan. I just came back because I did a run weekend. Um, as a family. It's been a couple of years, uh, to two years since we all went together.

01:07:19.580 — 01:07:21.420 · Ramit
Okay. Is that a long time or a little?

01:07:21.460 — 01:07:30.580 · Robert
It's a long time. In retrospect, we for a while, because we had a a house down in Margaritaville, so we were there quite a bit, you know, we would.

01:07:30.620 — 01:07:31.780 · Ramit
How often would you go?

01:07:32.220 — 01:07:33.780 · Lauren
Six times in one year.

01:07:33.820 — 01:07:35.580 · Robert
Yeah, we went in about six times in one year.

01:07:35.620 — 01:07:41.580 · Ramit
Okay. Anything else about your family growing up with money? Anything happened when you were a teenager with money?

01:07:41.580 — 01:08:08.450 · Robert
I mean, the biggest thing I can think of is that I was supposed to go to way to school. And, you know, I overheard my mom saying, talking to her sister like, oh, that financial aid that I was counting on didn't come. So I don't think we can afford it. And I just kind of heard her and I said, That's okay. I'll just go to community college.

But that only lasted like two semesters and I didn't think it was working, so I joined the Navy.

01:08:08.450 — 01:08:09.650 · Ramit
And how long were you in the Navy?

01:08:09.650 — 01:08:10.530 · Robert
For? 20 years.

01:08:10.570 — 01:08:23.890 · Ramit
Okay. The way you tell the story about money growing up is, um, kind of like. Yeah, like some things happened. It was tough, but, like, it's fine. That's the energy I get. Would you say that that's accurate?

01:08:24.089 — 01:08:47.609 · Robert
Yes. It's just we always made it. And that's just how I look at it. You know, I kind of, you know, I don't want the. I would never want my kids to have to be raised like that. And I've told her that, like, you know, I want my kids to have more than I did, but what I had when I grew up was fine because I'm. I'm happy. I'm alive.

I'm.

01:08:48.450 — 01:08:51.210 · Ramit
Are your kids on track to be raised like that or different?

01:08:51.210 — 01:08:54.730 · Robert
Different. They're definitely well provided for.

01:08:54.770 — 01:08:57.890 · Ramit
Anything that you want to add. Sometimes a partner knows best.

01:08:57.920 — 01:09:27.359 · Lauren
Um, just that, you know. Even if his mom didn't make a lot, she really hustled. I know she was a really hard worker. And so she did make things work. And she's done, like, well for herself. And his parents are very generous and help us out with things with the kids and stuff. Like what? Um, like they bought us a basketball hoop.

Um, they, you know, when they have money that they can spend on us in their grandkids, like, I know it makes them happy to do so.

01:09:27.920 — 01:09:33.480 · Ramit
Um, his mom was a hustler. Worked really hard. Kind of like you. Mhm.

01:09:34.000 — 01:09:36.080 · Robert
I think that's why I married Lauren.

01:09:36.920 — 01:09:47.920 · Lauren
Like, sometimes it makes me wonder, like why she didn't put the fire under him a little more. I mean, he did go in the Navy for 20 years but overall I don't feel like this. We don't have like the same drive.

01:09:47.960 — 01:09:50.160 · Ramit
Do you both acknowledge that. Yeah. Okay.

01:09:50.200 — 01:09:50.680 · Robert
Totally.

01:09:50.720 — 01:10:05.670 · Ramit
Like that's okay as long as you both accept what the implications are right. Two people of a different drive can totally have a happy relationship. I'm not sure that you have accepted it. Do you think you have?

01:10:05.790 — 01:10:08.390 · Lauren
No. I'm not happy with the lack of drive.

01:10:08.430 — 01:10:10.630 · Ramit
Okay. Did you know it when you got married?

01:10:10.670 — 01:10:23.550 · Lauren
Not so much. Because we got married just a couple years into dating, and it was like. I mean, I didn't have the best picker before, so just the fact that he was, like, in the Navy and had stable employment, I was like, you know.

01:10:23.590 — 01:10:31.070 · Ramit
Do you think that you mentioned. I wonder why Rob's mom didn't give him more drive. Do you think that you are giving your children that drive?

01:10:31.270 — 01:10:43.270 · Lauren
That's tough, I hope so, he would probably say no because he kind of thinks that they're like catered to. And, you know, I hope that they see how hard I work to, like, provide everything for us.

01:10:43.310 — 01:10:47.510 · Ramit
Well, maybe they do, but then maybe they just go and marry somebody who does the same thing.

01:10:47.550 — 01:10:48.190 · Lauren
Yeah.

01:10:48.510 — 01:10:50.310 · Ramit
Kind of like what's happened here.

01:10:50.470 — 01:11:14.260 · Lauren
Yeah. I mean, he often will kind of say like, well, like if the kids get to do something or have something that I buy. He'll say like, well, I grew up poor. We didn't have that. And I feel like that's used a lot as like a, almost like a little stab. And it's like, I didn't grow up like rich, you know? But like, I also started working at 14.

Everyone in my family. Same thing.

01:11:14.300 — 01:11:16.860 · Ramit
This is so interesting. This is it right here.

01:11:16.900 — 01:11:17.300 · Lauren
I'm going.

01:11:17.300 — 01:11:51.900 · Ramit
Off. No, that's really helpful because Rob, you know you to Lauren, you say you grew up poor. To me that's not the way you describe it. You go. I never felt poor. I never so already mixed messages. Both of you communicate mixed messages all day long. And neither one of you is actually coming together to create a joint vision.

So you both came in here asking for better communication. I'm showing you how to have that communication. Does this feel like completely foreign to you or are you like, oh yeah, like we need to do that.

01:11:53.130 — 01:11:54.890 · Lauren
Yeah, I think it resonates.

01:11:55.010 — 01:11:55.690 · Robert
Yeah.

01:11:55.770 — 01:12:00.090 · Ramit
If we ended this conversation right now, would you have that type of conversation?

01:12:00.170 — 01:12:02.530 · Robert
I would be calling the therapist.

01:12:02.570 — 01:12:04.210 · Lauren
Yeah, maybe with a third party.

01:12:04.370 — 01:13:54.870 · Ramit
Okay. That's valid. The most salient thing I take away from Lauren's upbringing is that phrase her mom told her, which is a man, is not a financial plan. I think that's good advice, but good advice can also be taken too far in the same way that saving too much money can turn you into a hyper frugal Lisa. When you believe a man is not a financial plan, you go cool.

I need to be independent. I need to have my own job. I need to have an individual account that's just mine. I love it, I support all of those things. If you take it too far, you do not include your spouse in the financial infrastructure and you keep separate accounts and you don't listen to him or respect your spouse.

When it comes to money, you don't even include them because you know they're just not going to get it. A man is not a financial plan. What do they know? And you suddenly become an operating party of one. What I hear from Rob's upbringing is exactly what I expected. He grew up poor, even though he won't say that to me, but he said it to Lauren.

Everything that he describes is like, yeah, it was fine. It wasn't that big of a deal. Very stoic, very inaccessible. When it comes to the feelings of it all. I can spot that as somebody who grew up talking in a similar way, but yet him growing up poor is revealed when he says things like, I did it this way. So what if our kids have to go through the same thing?

Their upbringings are totally connected to how they see money today. And there's one more thing from their past I want to revisit. And that pool scam, the $40,000 that disappeared. I suspect that single event set the tone for how they've dealt with money for their entire marriage. Listen in. Think about the resentment that you feel with money in your relationship.

Is there any connection to what happened with the pool?

01:13:54.910 — 01:14:05.310 · Lauren
I don't think one of us blamed the other. I think we were both kind of, like, equally naive. Um, but it was just like it sucked. I mean, how did that even happen?

01:14:05.350 — 01:14:06.710 · Ramit
Like, keep going on.

01:14:07.070 — 01:14:40.550 · Lauren
Like I had a good amount of money that time. We weren't married yet, so it was still like my money. Mhm. It just felt very stupid. I think then it felt like we had a lot more of a cushion because we just like came into all this money and whereas now it's like we don't have as much liquid because we've spent things on life over time and we've had properties and now we have three kids.

So back then it felt like it didn't feel good to lose 40 grand, but it didn't feel like, I don't know, it's still pretty devastating, but we just had more money back then.

01:14:40.910 — 01:14:41.550 · Ramit
Rob.

01:14:41.670 — 01:14:57.650 · Robert
Yeah. Like, how did it how did it happen to us? We're not dumb people. And how this guy just sell the dream to us without us realizing, like, oh wait, no, why are we giving you all the money up front instead of half and half?

01:14:57.650 — 01:15:07.450 · Ramit
Or were you intimately involved with his milestones, the contract, the legality of this pool guy?

01:15:07.610 — 01:15:07.970 · Lauren
No.

01:15:08.010 — 01:15:12.090 · Ramit
Probably not. No. Nowhere near. Are you intimately involved with your expenses?

01:15:12.370 — 01:15:17.370 · Lauren
I not know. There's a lot of stuff there that was not the details, weren't there?

01:15:17.410 — 01:15:19.250 · Ramit
Yes. Do you feel

01:15:20.610 — 01:15:24.050 · Ramit
embarrassed or stupid about some of your spending?

01:15:24.090 — 01:15:31.130 · Lauren
I guess just not like knowing every little detail about some of those costs. Like our food costs.

01:15:31.170 — 01:15:32.290 · Ramit
Mhm. You feel what?

01:15:32.330 — 01:15:45.210 · Lauren
Just like I wish I was a little more prepared I guess coming on but um I think I thought I was and also like just being a very busy working mom of three, I don't feel like I always have time to like, track every detail.

01:15:45.490 — 01:15:46.560 · Ramit
And how about Rob?

01:15:46.880 — 01:15:48.200 · Lauren
He doesn't track any of it.

01:15:48.240 — 01:15:55.480 · Ramit
Got it. Kind of like the money. Do you see any similarities between the pool and this? Your finances?

01:15:55.520 — 01:15:59.520 · Robert
I didn't, I almost didn't care. Maybe.

01:15:59.800 — 01:16:06.160 · Ramit
Yes. And why did you have the privilege of not caring? Because it's all gonna work out.

01:16:06.200 — 01:16:06.840 · Robert
Yeah.

01:16:07.160 — 01:16:22.120 · Ramit
Just like it did when I was a kid. Just like it is right now. It's all working out, right. You got a roof over your head, you got a nice bouncy house, you went to Disneyland two years ago, etc.. It's all kind of working out. Lauren. Any connection you see to the pool in today's finances?

01:16:22.160 — 01:16:28.880 · Lauren
Yeah, just like some carelessness. And also just like impulsivity. Like, I definitely struggle with impulsivity.

01:16:28.920 — 01:16:29.400 · Ramit
Mhm.

01:16:29.440 — 01:16:32.840 · Lauren
So yeah I mean it was pretty impulsive to just give that guy 40 rein.

01:16:32.880 — 01:16:33.720 · Ramit
Totally.

01:16:33.760 — 01:16:54.750 · Robert
On top of what we had to spend to fix the mistake. So it was I was thinking to myself, if that happened today, how much more devastating it would be, because that I would pretty much empty out whatever savings left we have with nothing left behind. So. Right. It's scary.

01:16:54.790 — 01:18:21.940 · Ramit
Yeah. I appreciate you saying that. It is scary. I think that that inheritance, the money from it shielded a lot of lessons that you otherwise would have had to learn, and I it doesn't seem like you have changed your financial understanding or behavior in the subsequent years since. I don't think you grappled with the enormity of that decision with the pool and like, really had an honest postmortem.

Like, we we go on a vacation not to sound like freaks because I know I'm a bit of a freak. I like documentation stuff, but like, after a trip we take, we will sit down and talk about what went well, what didn't go well, like, what do we like? What do we want to change next time? We want to try to learn each time we do this.

And I'm not saying everybody has to do that, it's just what works for us. But if I went through something where I got scammed out of $40,000, I'll be having a postmortem. What happened? No blame. What happened? I said this, you said that I assumed this. Here's what we're going to do differently. So that next time we never get into this situation.

No beating yourself up. Just acknowledging something you did, which wasn't great, and what you're going to do next time to change it. Do you think you could do that? Yeah. Great. Your vision of a rich life. What is it? Think about like what happens five years from now? Ten years from now. What is your vision of a rich life?

01:18:22.060 — 01:18:52.010 · Robert
We have more in savings and investments. This vacation, this experience with you and this vacation for the kids. You know, it's made us both realize that, like, we need this. We need more of this. Yes. We need to get away together. Why? We're we're undistracted. And our focus is on me and her. And the kids are in Rhode Island.

They're safe there. Sound. This is what we need. Great. And she kind of said the same thing last night. Like, we need more of this. And.

01:18:52.010 — 01:18:56.930 · Ramit
Yes. So what is it? Tell me. You want once every ten years. You want to do this?

01:18:56.970 — 01:18:58.090 · Robert
No. Once a.

01:18:58.090 — 01:18:58.930 · Ramit
Year. Once a year.

01:18:58.970 — 01:19:00.170 · Robert
Once a year I want this.

01:19:00.170 — 01:19:01.570 · Ramit
You want a trip with just the two of your.

01:19:01.570 — 01:19:08.890 · Robert
Friends here and not worry about, like, oh, should we spend only 150 on a hotel? Or like, how much?

01:19:10.890 — 01:19:14.290 · Robert
Seven grand a year. Just for a vacation. Just the two of us. Okay.

01:19:14.610 — 01:19:15.930 · Ramit
What do you think about that?

01:19:16.050 — 01:19:17.970 · Lauren
I think we could probably go cheaper.

01:19:18.730 — 01:19:19.170 · Robert
Right?

01:19:19.210 — 01:19:25.170 · Ramit
That's your reaction? I love you. He comes to you with a proposal and your reaction is like, let's let's squash that dream. It sounds.

01:19:25.210 — 01:19:33.170 · Lauren
No, I don't want to squash the dream. I think just getting away the two of us is. Yeah, huge. I'm all board for that.

01:19:33.330 — 01:20:19.680 · Ramit
Okay. The amount is a detail. Yeah. That the two of you could work on. But when I hear my wife come to me and say, like, I really want to do this, you know what? My reaction is 99.999% of the time. That sounds amazing. How do we do it? What if it was even bigger? And I don't talk about numbers at that point. We could deal with that later.

But it is so rare for somebody to get excited about doing something that on that rare occasion, your only job, unless it's going to risk your life, is to meet them with that level of excitement and get excited as well. I love your excitement, Rob. It's a powerful vision. And I think the the fact that the two of you are like, we need this amazing.

Great. What about for you?

01:20:19.800 — 01:20:47.030 · Lauren
Seeing my kids happy, seeing my husband happy, me feeling happy. I like that we each get our own little things that we like to do. Like he'll take that trip to Disney. Um, I got away for a few days last fall without the kids. Them getting to have experiences, Mhm. Us getting to go on vacations, but also like knowing that we're going to have something to leave behind for them.

Like that's a big part for me is where's that.

01:20:47.030 — 01:20:47.790 · Ramit
I don't see that in your.

01:20:47.990 — 01:20:57.350 · Lauren
It's not in there. Before we when we had more liquid cash I had like $100,000 set aside for the kids that I wanted to invest.

01:20:57.350 — 01:20:58.230 · Ramit
Where'd it go.

01:20:58.510 — 01:21:00.550 · Lauren
With, like the sales of the houses.

01:21:00.590 — 01:21:01.070 · Ramit
Mhm.

01:21:01.190 — 01:21:01.950 · Lauren
It's gone.

01:21:02.110 — 01:21:03.550 · Ramit
So how do you want to do that?

01:21:03.590 — 01:21:09.950 · Lauren
We'd have to take a portion monthly and like automate it into savings or.

01:21:10.430 — 01:21:11.830 · Ramit
Where's it going to come from.

01:21:11.910 — 01:21:18.150 · Lauren
Both of us. I mean he was like with that he was like they don't need that. Like I never had that. They don't need.

01:21:18.190 — 01:21:19.190 · Ramit
I, they didn't pay for my car.

01:21:19.230 — 01:21:20.750 · Lauren
They can join the military. That's what.

01:21:20.750 — 01:21:22.750 · Ramit
He said. And is that true, Rob? Do you feel that way?

01:21:22.790 — 01:21:27.350 · Robert
Sometimes it's like, oh, we need to pay for college. It's like, ah, they can just do four years in the military.

01:21:27.390 — 01:21:31.310 · Lauren
So also my parents didn't pay for college. I worked almost full time.

01:21:31.470 — 01:21:33.670 · Ramit
So why do you need to pay for their college?

01:21:33.710 — 01:21:39.570 · Lauren
It's more it's not really about paying for their college. It's more about giving them like a nest egg, like I got with my inheritance.

01:21:39.570 — 01:21:41.330 · Ramit
And due to have a nest egg for yourself.

01:21:41.330 — 01:21:44.690 · Lauren
No, I mean, all our money's just like an equity in the house, mostly.

01:21:45.010 — 01:21:46.530 · Ramit
So what's going to happen?

01:21:47.010 — 01:21:49.450 · Lauren
I know we need to build our nest egg.

01:21:49.650 — 01:21:51.050 · Robert
Yes, we do.

01:21:51.130 — 01:21:55.530 · Ramit
Feel like you want to make a plan for that. Or is it just like we should know?

01:21:55.530 — 01:21:56.610 · Lauren
We do. Yeah.

01:21:56.650 — 01:22:04.330 · Ramit
Okay, so back to the numbers. If you don't mind, Rob, you want to keep working until 60 or 70 at this type of role that you have now?

01:22:04.450 — 01:22:05.930 · Robert
No, not at.

01:22:05.930 — 01:22:07.450 · Ramit
All. When you want to retire.

01:22:07.450 — 01:22:11.050 · Robert
I could work with them. I wouldn't want to work at the job I'm at now.

01:22:11.370 — 01:22:13.570 · Ramit
But not a straight answer. Yeah.

01:22:13.610 — 01:22:17.170 · Robert
All right. 65 would be good for me.

01:22:18.210 — 01:22:19.610 · Ramit
What's happening with you, Lauren?

01:22:19.890 — 01:22:23.050 · Lauren
I'm just saying, like, we suck at giving straight answers.

01:22:23.490 — 01:22:24.210 · Ramit
Yes.

01:22:24.210 — 01:22:31.210 · Lauren
It wasn't kind of what I was expecting coming on here for us to like, to feel like we were so, like, wishy washy on things.

01:22:31.250 — 01:22:37.600 · Robert
Just because neither one of us wanted us to take the blame or the the failure or.

01:22:38.400 — 01:22:40.360 · Ramit
That's very insightful. Do you agree with that, Laura?

01:22:40.520 — 01:22:41.080 · Lauren
Yeah.

01:22:41.120 — 01:23:09.240 · Ramit
It's like the two of you are playing not to lose. Instead of playing to win. Do you see the difference? Yes. Playing not to lose. I'm not going to take the first step. If they say that, I'm just going to say no. But like I'm a pushover, I'll let it go. Whatever I want. I'm going to reason it out for my kids. But I can't say no to myself either.

But that makes me embarrassed. Playing not to lose instead of playing to win. What is playing to win look like?

01:23:09.400 — 01:23:11.440 · Lauren
Having a shared vision and.

01:23:11.480 — 01:23:14.080 · Robert
Having a nest egg. Having retirement? Yes.

01:23:14.080 — 01:23:15.560 · Lauren
Having. Having our money together.

01:23:15.600 — 01:23:16.920 · Robert
Yes. Shared goals?

01:23:16.960 — 01:23:18.240 · Ramit
Yes. Keep going.

01:23:18.560 — 01:23:21.040 · Lauren
Not having to, like, hide purchases from each other.

01:23:21.080 — 01:23:21.560 · Robert
Right.

01:23:21.600 — 01:23:28.640 · Ramit
Keep going. How are you feeling? Like last night when you're walking around. And today? In the morning, the beautiful weather. How were you feeling? Good fun?

01:23:28.720 — 01:23:29.920 · Robert
Yes. Invigorating.

01:23:29.960 — 01:23:49.110 · Ramit
Playing to win is fun. It is. It's not drudgery. You both envision money as drudgery. You hate it. But playing to win with money is fun. It's beautiful. We get to do things, and if we can't do them today, we know when we will be able to do them and we are working on it together.

01:23:49.790 — 01:24:09.589 · Robert
I agree, I think when finances come up we're both afraid to be the bad person in it. Yes. Whether it's she wants to buy it or whether it's me saying no, we are afraid to just talk about it and get on the same page because we don't want to be

01:24:10.630 — 01:24:11.910 · Robert
the bad person in it.

01:24:11.950 — 01:24:12.630 · Ramit
Yes.

01:24:12.790 — 01:24:16.470 · Robert
And so we'll make it look like we're the good person in our roles.

01:24:16.510 — 01:24:27.270 · Ramit
And that's really why you came here today to to look like the good person and anything that comes your way. In fact, as recently as two minutes ago, anything that comes your way.

01:24:28.310 — 01:25:14.380 · Ramit
Toss it over to the other person and jab them. It happens over. It's a deep seated pattern that you have. It's you could totally change it 100%. I know for a fact, but you have to have a reason why. And right now, your $257,000 that you invested grows to about 2.9 million by the age of 70. And that money gets you, um, about $116,000 a year from investments.

Lauren, that would be like for you, even though you're married. Robs pension of $54,000 a year. That would be a total of $170,000 a year in retirement. How do you feel about that?

01:25:14.780 — 01:25:17.940 · Lauren
Not good. Well, by then, hopefully we wouldn't have a mortgage.

01:25:18.260 — 01:25:20.260 · Robert
We wouldn't have three kids under ours. But.

01:25:20.260 — 01:26:08.930 · Ramit
So let's just take it out so you can see this is all already accounts for inflation as well. So right now you're at 81% fixed costs. I'm going to zero out your mortgage. That number dropped to 3,858%. You would not theoretically need to invest more money. You're retired and you would have. That's a lot. Well, you'd have $7,000 a month in guilt free spending.

It's not bad. That's a lot of money. This is a very fine plan in in part a couple of reasons. One, we have the pension that's guaranteed. Two, we have the money that is growing at $257,000, and you're relatively young and you would continue, you know, investing a little bit of money. What do you think?

01:26:09.090 — 01:26:12.890 · Lauren
It looks great. I think about where's the money? We leave our kids.

01:26:13.130 — 01:26:14.570 · Ramit
Yes. Where is it?

01:26:14.610 — 01:26:17.090 · Lauren
I that's where I feel like we need to invest more.

01:26:17.170 — 01:26:27.600 · Ramit
Okay. That's good. That's a source of agreement I like that I want to point out that 100 and 70KA year is $30,000 less than you currently make. Are you okay with that?

01:26:27.720 — 01:26:31.480 · Lauren
I am, like, if we didn't have a mortgage payment, I think that would be okay.

01:26:31.520 — 01:26:33.080 · Ramit
Cool. Rob?

01:26:33.600 — 01:26:34.480 · Robert
Yeah.

01:26:34.600 — 01:26:36.200 · Ramit
What's the hesitation? It's okay.

01:26:36.480 — 01:26:41.920 · Robert
I just. I don't know, I just think of when I'm thinking of, like,

01:26:42.960 — 01:26:44.680 · Robert
kids and grandkids.

01:26:44.680 — 01:27:18.920 · Ramit
I think that's a valid point. I do think with $7,000 a month, that is a lot of margin to play with a lot. That's trips, and that's the occasional gift to the kids and grandkids, all that stuff. What I think is notable is that your savings, you never really set a goal for your savings right now. So this is all assuming everything works out perfectly, that nobody gets sick, nobody loses a job, etc., etc. all parent illness, whatever it may be, I don't want to be making like hundreds of thousands of dollars and not have more than a month's worth of savings.

01:27:18.960 — 01:27:19.640 · Lauren
Yeah.

01:27:20.200 — 01:27:21.120 · Ramit
You want to fix it?

01:27:21.160 — 01:27:21.720 · Lauren
Yes.

01:27:21.800 — 01:27:27.150 · Ramit
All right. Let's put the mortgage back. How much do you want to invest, you both agree you want to invest more.

01:27:27.790 — 01:27:30.950 · Lauren
We start with a goal of like doubling what we do.

01:27:30.990 — 01:27:41.190 · Ramit
Okay. I'm going to show you what happens. That's at 3%. You have $2,770 a month left over. Are you guys good with that? Would you like to build up your savings? Perhaps.

01:27:41.190 — 01:27:48.790 · Robert
I would like to make a goal of, like, $500 at least a month. Okay. From my current job.

01:27:48.950 — 01:27:59.670 · Ramit
Okay. You're down to $2,270 a month for guilt free spending. I think right now it feels like you're both like, yeah, sounds good, because you actually have no idea how much you're spending every month.

01:27:59.710 — 01:27:59.870 · Lauren
Yeah.

01:27:59.870 — 01:28:03.070 · Ramit
We don't. This is all hypothetical. And guys, this is why,

01:28:04.150 — 01:28:20.310 · Ramit
like, knowing your numbers like you came all the way here and neither of you actually looked at real numbers. What do you make of that? It's an opportunity. You have that because you're not aligned. Do you see how many opportunities come up in life? And because you're not aligned, you just kind of let them go?

01:28:20.350 — 01:28:28.460 · Lauren
I feel like I looked at most of the numbers. I feel like it's like the details of the, like, guilt free spending and then what? Food.

01:28:29.020 — 01:29:03.260 · Ramit
Those are important numbers, right? See, what's happening here is you have to go back to your mental model. Your mental model is I paid the bills. That's what managing money is. So you're dialed in, you know your mortgage, you know your utilities, you know your car payment. And you're like, yeah, I take a lot of pride in that.

But actually, that's the least important stuff on this CSP because that's always the same. It's automatic. We don't need to even think about it. What really matters in the CSP are the four key numbers. And underneath those numbers tend to be discretionary things for you too. It is food, kids and travel.

01:29:04.380 — 01:29:16.780 · Ramit
Those three can swing your your expenses by like $50,000 a year. So actually is really important to know. What's your approach for figuring these numbers out together. How are you going to do it?

01:29:16.860 — 01:29:25.480 · Robert
Sit down and look at them and look exactly like How much we spent at BJ's or Walmart for food, and how much

01:29:27.200 — 01:29:28.400 · Robert
other things are coming out.

01:29:28.640 — 01:29:31.280 · Lauren
You don't like pulling up all of our spending. Who's going to start?

01:29:31.480 — 01:29:32.640 · Ramit
Who's going to pull it up?

01:29:33.320 — 01:29:35.440 · Lauren
We both have the apps, right? So we did.

01:29:35.480 — 01:29:40.200 · Ramit
Good. And then what? If you discover that you have to say no.

01:29:42.320 — 01:29:43.280 · Lauren
It'll be okay.

01:29:43.480 — 01:29:43.720 · Robert
Yeah.

01:29:43.760 — 01:29:46.640 · Ramit
What if you have to say no to your kids?

01:29:47.120 — 01:29:53.320 · Lauren
They're fine. They have everything they need, right? They honestly, they don't ask for things like. Really?

01:29:53.360 — 01:29:55.400 · Ramit
Yeah. That's why it's not. I'm not blaming the kids.

01:29:55.440 — 01:30:00.080 · Lauren
Yeah. No, it's it's me wanting to, like, provide this lifestyle.

01:30:00.680 — 01:30:03.960 · Robert
But when they do ask for things, it's usually.

01:30:04.000 — 01:30:05.440 · Ramit
So how you gonna deal with that?

01:30:05.560 — 01:30:09.560 · Lauren
You have to stand with me in solidarity and say, no, no.

01:30:09.680 — 01:31:10.430 · Ramit
I love that. That is a great. That's a great answer. Yeah. Like I love you saying, look, I'm actually not great at this. This is something that I really struggle with. And, Rob, you've pointed that out a lot, and I realized this isn't a skill I'm particularly good at. So I need your help. I need you to help me even practice how to say no because it's so hard for me.

And then when we go to the kids, we got to do it together. And I need you to support me. I need your hand on my shoulders. That's what we're talking about here, right? That's cool. And then, Rob, you can say the same thing. Hey, I know that I have not been working for a few years, and I know that you expected more of me.

And I did not live up to those expectations. I have a lot of work to do. I realize that I'm going to the therapist. I'm managing the calendar on that. I'm leading our financial meetings. All I ask is that you watch what I am doing because I'm ready to be a partner here, and then you rob, you actually have to do all that stuff.

01:31:10.510 — 01:31:10.950 · Robert
Okay.

01:31:15.870 — 01:31:38.619 · Ramit
That's pretty cool. Yeah, I suspect that the way that you have been spending money is basically just like we're just going to spend it. And as long as we're not going to credit card debt, it's fine. That ends today because from now on, you will project anything that you're going to buy anything above a certain number, I suggest over $500.

The two of you have to both agree. If you both do not agree, it's a no

01:31:39.660 — 01:31:39.900 · Ramit
go.

01:31:39.900 — 01:31:40.380 · Lauren
Read so.

01:31:40.380 — 01:31:41.060 · Lauren
Hard.

01:31:41.460 — 01:31:43.420 · Ramit
Yeah, I appreciate you recognizing.

01:31:43.420 — 01:31:43.700 · Ramit
That.

01:31:44.660 — 01:31:50.700 · Ramit
The two of you will have to rewrite your rolls. What's happening right now? These are interesting facial expressions.

01:31:50.700 — 01:31:54.140 · Lauren
I think we're like both eager down.

01:31:54.180 — 01:31:54.740 · Robert
Yeah.

01:31:54.780 — 01:31:55.220 · Lauren
Yeah.

01:31:55.260 — 01:32:00.140 · Robert
It's definitely going to be hard because we're setting our ways.

01:32:00.180 — 01:32:00.780 · Lauren
Yeah.

01:32:01.060 — 01:32:10.700 · Lauren
But like none of that's working. And yeah like I said we have changed a lot even just like in our own lifestyles and gotten so much healthier over the past year, we can make changes.

01:32:10.700 — 01:32:11.060 · Ramit
I love.

01:32:11.060 — 01:32:11.580 · Ramit
That.

01:32:11.620 — 01:32:22.770 · Ramit
Rob and Lauren 2.0, that's what you're working and you can even define it. Here's what Rob and Lauren 2.0 are. They look good. They feel good. Etcetera, etcetera. That's why I love the smiles on your faces.

01:32:23.450 — 01:32:37.609 · Robert
We both want this life. But since we weren't open to talk about it, we've been putting working towards that life together and reaching it sooner. It's just justice to both of us. We

01:32:38.650 — 01:33:03.530 · Robert
were given tools that we're now going to implement because we both want to, instead of trying to do it ourselves, because obviously it's not working and it's just going to lead to the ultimate destruction of our our marriage and our family, which we both don't want. So better that we have this opportunity to fix it and stop stop the bleeding.

01:33:03.570 — 01:33:14.490 · Lauren
And I'm just I'm like grateful that Rob is like, willing to engage. He was willing to come out here. I wasn't sure how he was going to feel about it when I applied without telling him. Um, so I feel good to.

01:33:15.840 — 01:35:30.380 · Ramit
This was one of the toughest conversations that I've had on this podcast. Every time I pulled a thread, it's like five more unraveled and nobody really wanted to look at what was underneath. And you could probably tell I got frustrated at certain points. So if you are watching Rob and Lauren, I want to thank you for being here, and I want to apologize if I came across as too direct at times or if I was rude.

You do have a lot of work to do. It's complex. It's layered. Even with a therapist on a regular basis, it's going to be hard. The good news is that you have a high income, and a high income can hide a lot of problems. The bad news is that only works for so long. Eventually, reality hits. And what is left when you confront that reality are the actual dynamics underneath the money.

Here's what I keep coming back to. Before they were married, Rob and Lauren handed a contractor $40,000 without a contract, no milestones, no one checking where the money was actually going. I said it earlier and I meant it. I think one scam might have set the tone for their entire marriage around money.

It taught them that when money goes wrong, you don't sit down and talk about it. You just eat the loss. You get a little bit more guarded with each other, and that's still showing up in how they operate today. Another thing about that scam, it didn't come out of nowhere. Scammers find you because your information is out there.

Your name, your address, the fact that you just bought a house, which everybody knows because they want money as part of that transaction, that's public. People use it to figure out exactly how to target you, and that's how the pitch ends up sounding really personalized. I use Delete me for exactly this reason.

My family's information, my information. I want it off the sites that sell it one by one. And we can't undo what's happened to Rob and Lauren, but we can try to control what information about ourselves is shared online? Publicly? This is about making yourself a harder target before someone else decides to try.

Go to join, delete Mi.com and use Code Remote for 20% off a plan for you and your family. Now let's check out their follow ups.

01:35:31.180 — 01:36:59.770 · Lauren
Hi Ramy, it's Lauren. Um, thank you again for having us on your podcast. We really enjoyed participating. Um, I think the biggest surprise for me was talking about our relationship dynamics more than our finances. Hearing that our conscious spending plan wasn't, like, complete. I had kind of estimated the cost of things like groceries, which Rob thought I overestimated.

Um, and then hearing our gross income, I didn't think it was that high. Takeaways I would say we need to work more as a team. Um, I need to let Rob take a bigger role in our finances if I expect him to contribute and care more about them. And I think I need to stop looking at things like, well, you spent this so I can spend that.

And then we have already made some changes. Um, as soon as we got home, I doubled my 401 K contribution. Um, yesterday I had an intro call with Fassett, and we're planning to move our investments from a percentage based fee advising system to the flat fee, and then just making our checking accounts joint and, you know, giving each other a debit card and the login information, and then having the one main checking account that we work out of, planning for Rob to contribute $500 a month to savings, and then just going through our grocery bills to get an accurate estimate.

01:37:00.130 — 01:38:15.980 · Robert
So the biggest surprise was the fact that even though we communicate, we're not really doing very Meaningful communication of just day to day relationship money. So we really need to work on that. And we have been in the past and currently, but obviously we're not doing it to the best of our capabilities.

The biggest takeaway was just saving. We're not saving enough. I think we talked about it and we came up with a plan. You know, even though we have the same worries, we're not communicating them. So we're not on the same page for money. And that was the biggest takeaway is that when you get on the same page, even with some of our visions and our means of getting there.

So what we've done already is she's already doubled her contribution to the savings. Her 41KI am looking to start and, uh, saving 125 a week to make it 500. We've already scheduled a therapy appointment for this Saturday, and, uh, we'll be. That'll be our first time talking about money, since it would be better to do it with a mediator.

01:38:16.660 — 01:39:25.210 · Lauren
Hi, Rami. Just checking in on our follow up. Um, so some changes we've made. Uh, Rob has picked up another day at work, so he's working four days instead of three. Um, some wins that we've had. We finalized our will and truss the state plan. Um, we had some, um, a little bit of credit card debt build up again, and Rob was able to pay off $4,000, which was a nice relief for me.

Um, that he was able to take care of that. And challenges we faced just kind of like losing my academic year pay over the summer and, um, not just filling up all that time with work and picking up hours and trying to just actually enjoy the summer. Um, and some time for myself, which is rare and some mindset shifts.

I think we just feel like more of a team and I'm seeing things, you know, less individually, um, and more like I have a partner, um, in managing our finances. So thank you for all your help. We're going to just keep working on things and keep listening to the podcast. And, um, it was great to be out there. Thanks.

01:39:25.410 — 01:40:39.839 · Robert
So what has happened in the months since our meeting? Uh, a lot actually. I continually to increase hours at work, so I'm almost up to five days a week pretty consistently. Lauren has already doubled her contributions to her savings claim. So we are getting our ducks in a row. Uh, the challenges are still the same as we discussed saying no to the kids being more transparent about money everyday decisions.

We are still working with our therapist with that, and she is very eager to see the episode. But we've definitely made some headway. Our mindset has changed. We're much more open to approach each other about what we're thinking on buying or what we shouldn't spend on this. And that's come from our meeting with Ramit and our therapist that we've seen quite regularly since the episode was taped, so I can't wait to see what the future holds and can't wait to keep giving you guys updates of how we've changed and accomplished our goals, and are

01:40:41.160 — 01:40:44.000 · Robert
very eager to see what's ahead of us.

01:40:44.600 — 01:40:58.600 · Ramit
If you want to know the exact month and year that you will have $100,000 in your investment portfolio, sign up for my new program, road to 100 K. I'll help you hit that number fast. Go to

01:40:59.920 — 01:41:01.840 · Ramit
100 K to sign up.