268. “We Make $150K… So why are we broke?”

 

Ramit Sethi of I Will Teach You To Be Rich talks to Lauren and Mick, a married couple in their 30s with two kids, $93K of debt, and a dream of moving into a bigger home. They earn around $150K a year combined, but with 89% of their take-home pay already going to fixed costs, just $5K in savings, and years of impulsive spending, their money is stretched far beyond what their lifestyle can support.

Both Lauren and Mick have ADHD, which they say makes it harder to manage bills, avoid dopamine spending, and follow through on financial systems. Ramit acknowledges those challenges while encouraging them to explore a deeper issue: ADHD can make money management more difficult, but finding ways to navigate those challenges is still an important part of making the financial decisions their family depends on.

In this episode we uncover:

• Why Lauren and Mick earn $150K but still only have $5K in savings
• How $93.5K of debt is keeping them trapped
• Why their 89% fixed costs make a bigger house impossible right now
• How ADHD affects their impulse spending, overdue bills, and financial systems
• How consolidating $35K of credit-card debt did not solve the behavior behind it
• Why they have avoided fully combining their finances after seven years of marriage
• How Mick losing his job for a year changed their relationship with money
• How both of their childhoods shaped their current spending habits
• Why wanting a third child and bigger home is creating pressure they cannot afford
• Why small cuts will not fix a structural financial problem
• Why Ramit says their household needs a clearer path to $200K in income
• What it takes to turn a fantasy of a better life into a real financial plan
• How Lauren and Mick responded after the conversation

Chapters:

(00:00:00) They admit their biggest money mistake

(00:01:18) Meet Lauren & Mick

(00:02:04) Their shocking financial numbers

(00:05:05) How ADHD affects their spending

(00:07:08) LEGOLAND, LEGO, and impulse purchases

(00:12:22) How job loss changed everything

(00:17:38) Breaking down their finances

(00:21:22) "Do you respect money?"

(00:24:40) Why 89% fixed costs is a disaster

(00:26:24) Breaking down $93,500 in debt

(00:33:15) Why they still want a bigger house

(00:35:11) How childhood shaped their money habits

(00:42:43) Why they keep resisting a financial plan

(00:53:00) Rebuilding their spending plan

(01:02:21) Can they earn more money?

(01:08:36) Ramit rebuilds their budget

(01:14:16) The income they actually need

(01:16:56) Their new financial plan

(01:21:23) Lauren & Mick's biggest takeaways

(01:24:17) Viewer follow-up: ADHD & money

 

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When will you finally feel rich? Join Ramit’s free live event on July 13 and learn how to build real financial security and more options with your money. Save your seat at iwt.com/liveevent

 

Transcript:

[00:00:00:05] Mick: I can get a credit card. I want an Xbox. Like, yeah, let's go buy it.

 

[00:00:03:20] Ramit: How can you have a spending problem? And then at the same time, you want to get a house?

 

[00:00:07:10] Mick: We're not mindful with money.

 

[00:00:08:24] Lauren: We both have ADHD, so we really need the dopamine hits. Whenever we want something, we just do it.

 

[00:00:14:07] Mick: So much of that debt came from poor decisions we both had made when we were younger.

 

[00:00:20:01] Ramit: Which poor decisions are you still making today with your money?

 

[00:00:22:14] Mick: Not having a plan and spending it on things that we probably don't need?

 

[00:00:25:22] Lauren: I took our older kid to target, he points out this pillow and I was like, all right, I need this.

 

[00:00:31:29] Ramit: It's not like he even asked for it.

 

[00:00:33:09] Lauren: Well, it's not his. It's mine.

 

[00:00:34:26] Mick: We were doing this like, like a land trip and ended up making a lot of impulse buys at Legoland.

 

[00:00:38:28] Ramit: So for Legos.

 

[00:00:40:03] Lauren: Legos are our whole personality.

 

[00:00:42:01] Ramit: Now I'm going to say something that's going to be uncomfortable to hear the money you have right now, just not working. You will end up without a house. You will end up without enough money in the bank. It will be gone. I love when people dream about money. What do they want in their rich life? What do they want to experience?

 

[00:01:01:01] Ramit: Taste? Where do they want to go? The problem is, a lot of people stop there. Like, if you want a bigger house or another child, or a better life for your family, amazing. But at some point we've got to go from a dream to a plan. Otherwise, it's just a random fantasy and I don't want to see that.

 

[00:01:19:12] Ramit: Today I'm talking to Lauren and Nick, 34 and 36 years old. They've been married for seven years. They have two kids. Let me take a look at their application. Lauren wrote in and she says, we have so much debt and struggle to get on top of it. We want a third kid but can't see that happening soon. With our current spending habits, we're trying to move into a three bedroom apartment, or better yet, a condo or standalone house that our kids can grow up in their writing in saying they have a spending problem, but then in the next sentence, they want to upgrade their house.

 

[00:01:53:10] Ramit: Okay, I got to find out what their numbers are. I'm going to take a look at their conscious spending plan, and if you want my help with your CSP and taking control of your money, you can join my money coaching program at.

 

[00:02:05:07] Ramit: Let's take a look. Assets 20,000. Investments 89,000. Savings 5000. Debt 93.5 thousand. For a total net worth of $20,500. Wait. Their fixed costs are 89%. Why are we talking about a new house right now? What? You know what? Some of you just need to be told. No. I'm sorry. No, you can't buy a house anytime soon. However, I'm a professional.

 

[00:02:32:23] Ramit: I need to work through the process. I actually do have a lot of questions like how are their fixed costs at 89%? Has it always been this way and how would they propose they move to a three bedroom place if they are already basically spending more than they make every single month? We're going to find out in this conversation with Lauren and Mick.

 

[00:02:54:09] Ramit: Learn. What do you feel about your finances today?

 

[00:02:56:19] Lauren: I get really stressed out, especially when, like, I have to think too hard to make it work. Since I am the keeper of the calendar, I feel like a lot of the responsibility rests on my shoulders to make sure that all of our bills are paid on time, and I don't feel like I am able to keep it up.

 

[00:03:23:01] Mick: Kind of. What initially turned us on to your work was both of us made a lot of poor decisions when we were in our early 20s. I took out a lot of credit cards. I had a lot of credit card debt. I wasn't educated enough on what that can do to you later in life, and it took me a long time to kind of correct course.

 

[00:03:46:24] Mick: I feel like we're starting to be on that course, but at the same time, with everything being as expensive as it is right now, and, you know, we live in a very expensive city. I mean, we are debating having a third child. It's like, I would love to move into like a larger apartment or like, like rent a house, but I wish that there was a little bit more.

 

[00:04:12:21] Ramit: So if we have an amazing conversation today, ten out of ten. What do you each want to walk out of here with.

 

[00:04:19:28] Lauren: A game plan? Okay. Something that we can stick to. That's not hard.

 

[00:04:26:17] Ramit: Oh, okay.

 

[00:04:27:14] Mick: I think for me it's probably a little bit more confidence knowing that we're doing the right thing, that the stuff we've already done was on the right track.

 

[00:04:38:00] Ramit: Do you feel like you have a plan right now?

 

[00:04:40:01] Lauren: Good.

 

[00:04:40:23] Mick: I feel I mean, I feel like we've definitely caught up quite a bit from where we were a few years ago. Like now. We've had setbacks here and there that were very unexpected and is sometimes it felt like taking two steps forward and one step back. So I think if we can stop taking the steps back, then that's a good thing.

 

[00:04:59:27] Ramit: All right. Let's see what we can do. Now I read your application. Thank you for submitting it. And Lauren, you wrote the application you wrote. We want to get better at planning ahead and managing our impulsivity around purchases. Yeah. Okay. Now walk me through what you mean by impulsive purchases.

 

[00:05:18:22] Lauren: We both have ADHD, so we really need the dopamine hits to, like, get us through. We're, like, both really burnt out. Okay. And so sometimes whenever we want something, we just do it because we want it badly enough.

 

[00:05:35:07] Ramit: And how else does ADHD show up with your finances?

 

[00:05:39:16] Lauren: Like we got 80 there and then taking that last 20% when we came up with a plan just got really hard. We kind of I hyper focused on your book and the podcast for maybe six months. Okay. And then.

 

[00:05:53:12] Ramit: Sounds great so far. Where's the problem?

 

[00:05:55:28] Lauren: Well, and then I just kind of gave up on it.

 

[00:05:58:27] Ramit: So you read it, you started opening up accounts, etc.. And then what was the point where you said, like the last 20%?

 

[00:06:05:19] Lauren: I think it was more figuring out how to do our savings and investments and things like that.

 

[00:06:11:20] Mick: And then just in terms of like the how ADHD kind of comes into play. She has a really good calendar that she sets, but I don't and like paying bills sometimes. Like yesterday she was like, hey, we're past due on her electric bill. Did you know that? And I was like, no. And then I paid it. But it was like just remembering that stuff.

 

[00:06:31:17] Mick: And like all the, the processes, like, we really have to nail them all down and I try to do autopay and whatever I can, but that also gets us into trouble sometimes if we haven't remembered to, like, we need enough money in this account because there's an auto pay that's going through next week.

 

[00:06:48:05] Lauren: So yeah, the automations.

 

[00:06:49:26] Mick: Automations are like a double edged sword, I think.

 

[00:06:53:09] Ramit: Now, are you getting help for ADHD for other parts of life, doctor, therapists, etc.?

 

[00:06:58:16] Mick: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. We both.

 

[00:06:59:28] Lauren: Are both in therapy.

 

[00:07:01:16] Mick: Yeah, I we take medication.

 

[00:07:04:05] Ramit: Yeah. Great. Okay, good. What are the other impulsive purchases that you've made?

 

[00:07:09:03] Lauren: Well, this morning I took our older kid to target because one of the toys he bought was broken. And then he points out this K-pop demon hunter's pillow like pillow. And I was like, all right, I need this.

 

[00:07:25:03] Ramit: How old is he?

 

[00:07:26:05] Lauren: Five.

 

[00:07:26:22] Ramit: Five. So he pointed out. And you bought it. Okay. So okay. So impulsive purchases at the store because it's not like he even asked for it.

 

[00:07:35:05] Lauren: Yeah, well, it's not his. It's mine.

 

[00:07:37:09] Ramit: You buy it for yourself. Okay, that clarifies things. All right, all right. Are the two of you married? We are. Yeah. And how long you been married for?

 

[00:07:45:13] Mick: It'll be seven years this year.

 

[00:07:46:21] Ramit: Seven years? Okay. And the age of your children?

 

[00:07:50:07] Lauren: Five and two.

 

[00:07:51:07] Ramit: Five and two. Okay. Got it. Can you think of a time in a recent few months where the two of you were not on the same page about money?

 

[00:07:59:22] Mick: Both our boys have birthdays that are within the same week. And so we were doing this, like Legoland trip. And she really wanted to, like, stay at the Legoland hotel and do, like the whole nine yards. And I was like, can we, like, maybe do a different hotel? And I think I took it took a little bit of convincing before you were like, all right, we'll do it.

 

[00:08:22:19] Mick: We ended up we ended up picking the less expensive option, but then we also then ended up making a lot of impulse buys at Legoland.

 

[00:08:30:18] Ramit: So for like for Legos.

 

[00:08:33:09] Lauren: Legos, our whole personality. Now.

 

[00:08:36:02] Mick: It's the latest effort.

 

[00:08:37:26] Lauren: Because we also did like a little birthday party. I tried to do the cheapest option possible where I didn't have to do all the legwork.

 

[00:08:46:01] Ramit: Hold on. How can the cheapest option be the one where you don't have to do the legwork?

 

[00:08:49:03] Lauren: It's $15 a kid.

 

[00:08:50:26] Ramit: Okay.

 

[00:08:51:23] Lauren: Not bad for kids party.

 

[00:08:53:19] Ramit: Okay.

 

[00:08:54:00] Lauren: But what I asked for instead of getting actual gifts, I asked for gift cards to Lego land.

 

[00:09:01:04] Ramit: Okay.

 

[00:09:01:19] Lauren: So I was kind of trying to crowdsource a little bit so that we would have a little extra spending money at Legoland.

 

[00:09:09:02] Ramit: Did it work? Yeah. How much you get?

 

[00:09:11:11] Lauren: Probably got like almost $200.

 

[00:09:14:01] Ramit: And how much did the Legoland trip cost?

 

[00:09:17:13] Mick: Two grand.

 

[00:09:18:13] Lauren: Well, the hotel was like 700 for two nights. And then I did 110 a person for three days.

 

[00:09:28:09] Ramit: Legoland was three days.

 

[00:09:30:05] Lauren: It was two days. They've added so much stuff.

 

[00:09:32:11] Ramit: I only went to Disneyland for one day. Like, this is crazy to me. Okay, so it's thousands. Like if you add it all up.

 

[00:09:40:24] Lauren: 1500 maybe.

 

[00:09:42:24] Mick: Yeah, yeah.

 

[00:09:43:24] Ramit: All right. Do you have the money for it?

 

[00:09:46:06] Mick: We did. But I think part of that is because I had gotten an unexpected bonus like shortly before. So I think we would have been struggling a little bit more right now if that didn't happen.

 

[00:09:57:01] Ramit: What are the roles that each of you currently plays with your money?

 

[00:09:59:27] Mick: I guess I'm like the person that executes.

 

[00:10:02:27] Ramit: And then Lauren, what's your role?

 

[00:10:04:02] Lauren: I plan it out.

 

[00:10:05:29] Ramit: You're the planner. You're the executable.

 

[00:10:07:18] Mick: Yeah.

 

[00:10:08:16] Ramit: Is that true, though? Because you told me that, you know, you forgot about the bill being due.

 

[00:10:13:11] Lauren: Well, I tell him that the bills do. Like when I saw the the electric bill was passed due. And I'm like, hey, can you pay this?

 

[00:10:22:00] Ramit: Oh, so you're the planner and the reminder.

 

[00:10:24:07] Lauren: Yeah.

 

[00:10:24:19] Ramit: Yeah.

 

[00:10:25:07] Mick: Yeah, she is the reminder.

 

[00:10:27:11] Ramit: Okay. Okay.

 

[00:10:29:20] Lauren: I have a hard time figuring out the overall picture, but if I know something needs to be paid, I at least try to figure out, like, generally where the schedule should be. So, like, some bills I know are do like the first of the month and some or the 15th of the month, and somebody has been a little bit slow on transferring some of the bills from his individual account to the shared account.

 

[00:10:57:18] Mick: So to be honest, it's probably part of the ADHD like just not it's it's become like a blindness thing. Like because we have like subscriptions and like whatever. So like I guess with all of those, a lot of them are just automatically set to my personal card. Yeah. And so sitting down and then just transferring them at all, it doesn't sound hard.

 

[00:11:20:01] Mick: And I think most people would probably think it doesn't sound that hard. But sometimes, like if there are other people that are watching that have ADHD, sometimes just doing something is not just doing something. And that's probably a lot of it. Honestly.

 

[00:11:36:04] Ramit: Here's my take and I want to see if you'll resonate with this or not. Feel free to tell me. So I'm not an ADHD expert, but I know that it shows up in money a lot, and I think in part today we can probably all admit there's some ADHD showing here. I'm glad that you guys are getting help.

 

[00:11:57:18] Ramit: I don't need to fully understand how ADHD works with money, but I need you to find a solution to these problems.

 

[00:12:07:14] Mick: It makes sense.

 

[00:12:08:17] Ramit: Even if you have ADHD, and even if it's harder for you then for other people, you still got to find a solution using all the resources at your disposal because you can't go through life not solving this money problem, especially because you have kids.

 

[00:12:22:11] Lauren: Yeah. I mean, we've had a lot of obstacles over the last, I mean, our whole lives. But, I mean, that's everyone, but especially the last few years, I feel like we have been really motivated to, like, clear our debt and to, you know, start thinking about retirement and, you know, make sure that we have a solid foundation to build on.

 

[00:12:48:21] Lauren: And then a couple of years ago, Mick got laid off. And ever since then, I feel like we have been on this roller coaster, emotional roller coaster. So we've been dealing with a lot of trauma from that. And we've also been dealing with the emotional toll that living in a scarcity mindset takes on you. Yeah. So he didn't have a job for like a year.

 

[00:13:22:17] Lauren: Eventually it all ran out and then he finally got a job. And we're like, yes, we can finally spend money again. And then we went a little too crazy.

 

[00:13:32:28] Ramit: You went a little too crazy means you overspent. Yeah. And by how much did you overspend?

 

[00:13:38:16] Lauren: I can't even quantify it.

 

[00:13:41:00] Ramit: There's an interesting pattern that I am noticing with Lauren and Mick. They have a reason for everything when it comes to their behavior, and I'm actually down to talk about it all. Like, you want to talk about high cost of living? No problem if you're out of work for a year. Let's talk about what to do about that.

 

[00:13:56:13] Ramit: But I will also be clear when there are certain things that are not my area of expertise. I'm not an expert on ADHD. I want to establish that right now. Now, I am thrilled to hear that they are taking steps to manage it. But I do know that even with ADHD, they have to find a way to survive and thrive when it comes to their money.

 

[00:14:16:11] Ramit: So that is my challenge for them today. And we're going to take a look at their numbers right after this.

 

[00:14:25:01] Ramit: I want to take a look at the numbers. Help me understand what's going on. What was it like to do the conscious spending plan together?

 

[00:14:31:27] Mick: So we had done one a few years ago. That was the harder one, because it was the first time that we really looked into our finances and then saw like, how much debt we were in.

 

[00:14:42:03] Lauren: I had never seen how much he owed.

 

[00:14:46:04] Ramit: Oh, really?

 

[00:14:47:08] Mick: And likewise, I had never seen how much she had.

 

[00:14:49:00] Ramit: What was the amount at the time?

 

[00:14:50:23] Mick: 

 

[00:14:51:22] Lauren: I think I was up to like, 20 grand of debt. Credit card. Yeah.

 

[00:14:55:05] Mick: Okay. Yeah. And I was like, $1,000. I want to say.

 

[00:15:00:13] Ramit: Are you were married at the time, right? Oh, yeah. You'll never talked about it.

 

[00:15:04:26] Mick: No, we we we really didn't like separately.

 

[00:15:08:11] Lauren: Yeah.

 

[00:15:08:20] Mick: We had we had we we still had a shared account. You know, we paid rent, threw in some bills, and then I'd pay some bills through my account.

 

[00:15:16:13] Ramit: But no sitting down. And let's give each other the full overview.

 

[00:15:20:10] Mick: Not really.

 

[00:15:21:13] Ramit: Usually, like one person was like, hey, I feel like I need to know more.

 

[00:15:24:14] Lauren: I mean, I probably mentioned it more than you did at the time. It seemed like you were a little embarrassed about how much you owed, and you didn't really want to share it with me.

 

[00:15:35:00] Mick: I mean, I probably was. I also didn't know how much you owed, and I probably would have been a little felt a little better if I knew because we were in the same boat and I didn't realize it.

 

[00:15:44:18] Ramit: Let's look at the numbers. Let me put them up on screen. So I am going to ask you, Lauren, to read off the word in bold and then the number next to it for this entire box, please.

 

[00:15:56:02] Lauren: Assets 20,000. Investments 89,000. Savings 5000. Debt 93,500.

 

[00:16:07:16] Ramit: Total. That worth.

 

[00:16:08:26] Lauren: 20,500.

 

[00:16:10:23] Ramit: Okay. What do you think about those numbers?

 

[00:16:13:04] Lauren: I mean, the debt is high, but I'm kind of impressed with us for having a net worth.

 

[00:16:19:12] Mick: I actually think I made a joke about it. I'm like, oh, we actually have a positive net worth. That's great.

 

[00:16:24:05] Ramit: Is that because for so long you had a negative net worth?

 

[00:16:27:00] Mick: I mean, yeah, yeah.

 

[00:16:29:05] Lauren: I mean, the only reason why we have a positive net worth is because of our 401 case.

 

[00:16:34:21] Ramit: That's okay.

 

[00:16:35:27] Mick: She has a 401. I had a previous job where I had an automatic deduction. Yes. I don't currently have a 401 like I have my 401 K account, but it's an old account, so I can't make contributions.

 

[00:16:49:20] Lauren: Well, and then after I read your book, I was like, hey, you should convert your old 401 K to a Roth IRA.

 

[00:16:57:04] Mick: Yeah. So I do have a Roth IRA. That's good.

 

[00:16:59:29] Lauren: And I've been trying to convince him to do, like, $20 a month.

 

[00:17:03:12] Mick: Which I did. I did set up a $20 a month just contribution.

 

[00:17:07:07] Ramit: What's up with this dynamic of. I've been trying to convince him.

 

[00:17:10:25] Lauren: Sometimes it's a little challenging to get Mike to do things.

 

[00:17:16:28] Mick: Why? I guess I'm stubborn. I'm very stubborn.

 

[00:17:19:09] Ramit: Yeah. Why? Though it's not like she's trying to get you to eat poison. It's like set up a Roth IRA and put 50 bucks a month. What's the resistance.

 

[00:17:26:08] Mick: If it's not in front of me in the moment? And I say I'll do it later. I don't I don't do it later. That's it. Yeah. It's just.

 

[00:17:34:12] Ramit: Like an administrative issue.

 

[00:17:36:17] Mick: I think that's probably part of it.

 

[00:17:38:13] Ramit: I mean, just to ask, like a blunt question, why don't you just do a forum?

 

[00:17:43:19] Lauren: I don't have the login.

 

[00:17:45:28] Mick: I think it's something that we haven't even thought about, honestly. Like the questions that you're bringing up.

 

[00:17:50:01] Ramit: Yes, I can tell. And I want to know why. Like, is money important in your relationship? It's okay if the answer is no. I just want to understand.

 

[00:18:00:04] Mick: I would, I mean, I would say it isn't because we. When she first met me, I didn't even have a job, I was broke.

 

[00:18:06:21] Ramit: Okay, so it's not important. Yeah. Do you respect money?

 

[00:18:09:23] Mick: In what way?

 

[00:18:10:21] Ramit: How do we respect something? If we respect food? We think about what we're going to eat. We perhaps by certain types of ingredients, we talk about what we're going to eat. We clean things. We chop them with our kids or clean them with our kids like it's a part of our family. You know, it's a thing that we are methodical about and thoughtful and talkative.

 

[00:18:37:18] Ramit: Plan full money. Same way. So I'll ask the question again. Do you respect money?

 

[00:18:44:10] Mick: No, I don't think. I don't think we do. I think it's something that we only think about when we need to. Yes.

 

[00:18:51:10] Lauren: I agree.

 

[00:18:52:09] Ramit: Okay. I believe Lauren and Mick have an external locus of control. External locus of control means they don't believe they are in control of their own destiny, that they believe that life happens to them and they exist merely to react to it. You know what surprising amount of people feel this way? A lot of people grow up feeling very little control over their own environment.

 

[00:19:15:28] Ramit: Perhaps they grew up poor. The minute they put a little bit of money aside, their boots broke or their tires got flattened. And so no matter what they did, something happened and set them two steps back. And if that's what your parents saw and their parents and you, well, it's no surprise that you have an external locus of control.

 

[00:19:35:19] Ramit: If somebody has an external locus of control, it is virtually impossible for me to change that, especially in one conversation. It can be changed. You can practice it. You can start by setting up a $20 a month automatic savings plan, and within ten months you will see $200. So if you meet someone with an external locus of control, can they change?

 

[00:19:57:09] Ramit: Sure. Is it likely to happen? No, because it's really, really hard. Mick, can you read off the combined gross monthly income, please?

 

[00:20:07:18] Mick: Yes. $12,470.

 

[00:20:10:03] Ramit: Cool. So it's about $150,000 a year. Gross. Did you know that you made that?

 

[00:20:14:24] Mick: Yes.

 

[00:20:15:05] Ramit: Yes. Both in you.

 

[00:20:16:06] Mick: Yes.

 

[00:20:16:17] Ramit: Wow. What what would you tell yourself at the time where you finally got a job and you started to spend more?

 

[00:20:22:28] Mick: I think for us, in terms of our comfort, it was like a we have we had breathing room because I was getting a larger paycheck again. And so it goes back to like getting that dopamine hit like, let's go to more restaurant, let's go out to eat more, lets you know by those toys that we were not going to get for the kids or even stuff for ourselves.

 

[00:20:47:00] Mick: You know, let me go buy a video game console or, you know, let me get a few bucks or a new Kindle or whatever it was. And it was it was one of those things where we felt like we had deprived ourselves. And then the opposite happened. And because I think, like, life got interrupted right when we were on the right track, all of those things that we had learned from your book and your show and then the other things that we were doing to like, get our finances together, that became a low priority because we were just trying to survive for a few months.

 

[00:21:24:07] Mick: Okay.

 

[00:21:24:27] Ramit: What is this number here?

 

[00:21:26:22] Mick: 89%?

 

[00:21:27:27] Ramit: 89%. What does that tell you?

 

[00:21:30:08] Mick: The vast majority of our money is just going toward those fixed costs.

 

[00:21:34:22] Ramit: Exactly. 89% of your take home pay goes to your fixed costs. That's the ball game. That means you spend effectively every last sent. You make going to fixed costs. Implication being you don't have enough money for.

 

[00:21:48:19] Lauren: Fun.

 

[00:21:49:13] Mick: Fun savings.

 

[00:21:50:21] Ramit: Although I suspect you do spend it anyway on fun. Yeah, you definitely not have enough for savings, which is why there's zero going towards it and a relatively small amount in savings. $5,000.

 

[00:22:00:13] Lauren: That was just a bonus.

 

[00:22:01:29] Ramit: You've been putting $300 a month away, but then why is it only $5,000 in savings? Where you pulling it out?

 

[00:22:10:11] Lauren: Yeah. So the that money is supposed to go toward our car payment.

 

[00:22:17:27] Mick: Yeah. I mean, we end up pulling it out for bills. That's basically, that's the basic thing that happens. Yeah.

 

[00:22:22:23] Ramit: Investments are at zero. Savings are at 3%, although it's unclear if that's actually going to savings or not. And then finally, guilt free spending says 8% or $713. But we know that's not true, right? Yeah, more than that. Yeah. For sure. So what do you make of the fact that you are spending more than the CSP shows you have?

 

[00:22:45:03] Lauren: I mean, it's just going to increase our debt.

 

[00:22:47:20] Mick: I think that's part of like, why we're here to figure out, like, what do we really need to cut back and and save for because we do need the savings. I don't think everything is set up correctly. Yeah. And I guess a lot of it is kind of administrative in a way, because things aren't set up and because the visibility is not there.

 

[00:23:08:24] Mick: We're making poor choices.

 

[00:23:10:19] Ramit: I think that's partially true. Yes. What's the debt? 93,500? What type of debt is that?

 

[00:23:16:03] Lauren: We have two cars and.

 

[00:23:18:02] Mick: Two cars and.

 

[00:23:19:04] Lauren: Credit.

 

[00:23:19:13] Mick: Cards and. And credit cards. Yeah.

 

[00:23:21:14] Ramit: Okay. Break it down for me. How much is the first car?

 

[00:23:24:08] Mick: I want to say it's around 28. Is it 28,000.

 

[00:23:27:12] Ramit: 30 K?

 

[00:23:28:02] Mick: Around 30 K. It's a mustang Mach-E monkey.

 

[00:23:32:10] Ramit: How much did it cost when you bought it?

 

[00:23:34:05] Mick: 35.

 

[00:23:36:01] Lauren: Okay. We got a really horrible 38 interest rate on it.

 

[00:23:38:19] Ramit: What interest rate?

 

[00:23:40:04] Lauren: It was like nine.

 

[00:23:41:00] Mick: It was.

 

[00:23:41:12] Lauren: When we.

 

[00:23:41:20] Mick: First got it. And we got it refinanced. To what? Now it's like 6%.

 

[00:23:46:16] Ramit: Yeah. Okay. What's the next car?

 

[00:23:48:26] Lauren: It's a lease. Honda. Honda CRV.

 

[00:23:52:12] Ramit: You're leasing CRV. Why are you leasing it?

 

[00:23:54:21] Mick: That's brand new.

 

[00:23:55:22] Lauren: Yeah.

 

[00:23:56:18] Ramit: What does that have to do with it?

 

[00:23:58:02] Lauren: Cheaper monthly payment.

 

[00:23:59:01] Mick: Yeah, it was a cheaper monthly payment, basically. That was the whole reason.

 

[00:24:02:11] Ramit: Okay. Got it. And then how much credit card debt.

 

[00:24:05:09] Lauren: Well, the loan that we just took out was 35. And that was in January.

 

[00:24:10:18] Ramit: 35.

 

[00:24:11:05] Lauren: What thousand.

 

[00:24:12:08] Ramit: 35,000. What interest rate?

 

[00:24:15:00] Mick: I want to say like around 8%.

 

[00:24:18:03] Ramit: What do you all think of this?

 

[00:24:19:05] Mick: Part of the reason that we did it is because because it was all credit card debt and it was insanely high interest. I mean, it was 20 something percent.

 

[00:24:25:18] Lauren: In 2020.

 

[00:24:26:13] Mick: Six.

 

[00:24:26:29] Lauren: Percent on most of the cards.

 

[00:24:28:15] Mick: Yeah. And so I wanted to completely shut down any credit spending. Yeah. And so I'm like, we need to pay off this debt. If we keep it in the credit card, the interest rates too high. We don't have the money to pay it off.

 

[00:24:42:26] Ramit: But like, you're still spending on credit cards, right?

 

[00:24:45:04] Mick: No.

 

[00:24:46:02] Ramit: No.

 

[00:24:46:14] Mick: I mean I. Yeah.

 

[00:24:47:15] Lauren: The only thing that we've recently put on a credit card was the Legoland hotel.

 

[00:24:51:14] Ramit: So now I understand the debt. You have two car payments and the consolidated debt at roughly 8% or so. So let's just say $93,000 of debt at, like, let's say 9%.

 

[00:25:05:05] Mick: The percentage is always the thing that, like, sticks out to me after like reading your book and everything that is like it costs a lot of money. It's going to be a lot of money extra. And I think that sticks out to me. But at the same time, like the the decisions that we made at the time, at least for this credit card debt solution, was because we're going to save some interest.

 

[00:25:31:00] Ramit: But what about getting into credit card debt in the first place?

 

[00:25:33:12] Mick: That's that was the problem. And so I think that likes so much of that debt came from very poor decisions that we both had made when we were younger.

 

[00:25:44:13] Ramit: Which poor decisions are you still making today with your money?

 

[00:25:47:07] Mick: I mean, I guess.

 

[00:25:47:23] Lauren: We're having a plan.

 

[00:25:49:00] Mick: Yeah. Not having a plan and spending it on things that we probably don't necessarily need.

 

[00:25:53:02] Ramit: It's kind of the same as it was before. The only difference is you consolidate your credit card debt. But the principles are still the same, spending more than you have on largely discretionary things and fixed. And there's no plan. So like the consolidation is just buying you time. Even if you pay it off, you'll go back into debt.

 

[00:26:12:21] Ramit: Unless you change fundamentally the way that you have a relationship with money and with each other.

 

[00:26:19:00] Mick: Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah.

 

[00:26:20:29] Lauren: I mean, I will say, I think that we've been doing so much better about not using our credit cards.

 

[00:26:28:12] Ramit: Notice with Lauren and Mick when I make a suggestion, there is a lot of explanation over explanation of why they are in this situation where they used to be and how far they've come, and candidly, it doesn't really interest me. I could spend the next five days listening to stories about why they are here, and why everything they've done is actually quite rational, and they will get nowhere.

 

[00:26:49:12] Ramit: That's not even what they want, but unconsciously, they are simply bringing up old stories so that they don't have to change. Not interested. I'm more interested in do you acknowledge where you are today and what's it going to take to move forward?

 

[00:27:06:01] Ramit: So what are you going to do to fix it?

 

[00:27:07:09] Mick: I think it's maybe what we went back to before is that we're not respecting it enough, and we don't talk about it. It's not just that we don't talk about it with each other. I don't talk about it with anyone. Correct.

 

[00:27:16:27] Ramit: I don't think you think about it.

 

[00:27:18:19] Mick: I don't really think about it all that much.

 

[00:27:21:26] Ramit: The application that you wrote said to me, we are struggling with our spending patterns, which I thought was very insightful. Very few people actually referenced their own spending problem. That was cool. And then like two sentences later, said, also, we want to get a three bedroom apartment or house. And I was like, how can that be? How can you have a spending problem?

 

[00:27:44:23] Ramit: And then at the same time you want to get a house.

 

[00:27:48:12] Mick: So we're not mindful with money, correct?

 

[00:27:50:29] Ramit: To me, I think the way that you're talking about money feels like it's this abstract thing and it's kind of just like I break, break it in case of when we need it. And even if we just want it, Legoland. Like, I'll kind of collect some gift cards, but like Lego, we're going to do Legoland doesn't really matter how much we have, we're just gonna do it.

 

[00:28:07:15] Ramit: We'll find a way. And if if it adds to the debt, it's not going to add. It's fine. It's fine. It feels very detached. A plan is deeply real and local. It affects, like what you eat, where you go, what kind of birthday party? Like there are numbers that guide what you're doing. If you had a plan like that, would it feel good or bad?

 

[00:28:34:16] Mick: I think it would eventually feel good. I think it would be. Feel like scary? Yes. Probably scary. Uncomfortable. I think that's true. Yeah.

 

[00:28:41:16] Ramit: I'm gonna try to make money really simple today, because I think it's like there's a lot of different confusing things going on. There's accounts over here, and you're the planner and you're the executing, but you also execute too. And you have to remind the executable. And then there's debt but it's consolidated. It's just like a lot in many ways.

 

[00:28:59:03] Ramit: Like my finances are simpler than yours. And that shouldn't be the case. Like trust me, it should not be the case. We should make all of our finances simple so that we deeply understand it, and that we don't have to make 1000 decisions per month. I know I don't want to do that. Yeah, I know you don't want.

 

[00:29:16:01] Mick: To not know. All right.

 

[00:29:18:04] Ramit: Help me understand how you each grew up with money. Mick.

 

[00:29:22:25] Mick: I didn't learn a whole lot about money growing up. My dad was supported a lot by his parents. They were fairly well off, but I think they didn't support him in the way that they should have. Like they didn't teach him about money. They gave him money.

 

[00:29:42:13] Ramit: Okay.

 

[00:29:43:05] Mick: And so that was a skill that he never had and that didn't get passed on to me.

 

[00:29:49:06] Ramit: Does he at least give you money?

 

[00:29:51:11] Mick: He's broke. And then my my mom, she was a stay at home mom, which is an incredibly hard job. But she also didn't really she never worked and she didn't enter the workforce. So I feel in that way she doesn't necessarily understand sometimes how much goes into it.

 

[00:30:12:09] Lauren: Her mom also was well off.

 

[00:30:14:13] Mick: And well, not necessarily. I mean, my my grandmother was my mom's mom was probably the best of my grandparents when it came to teaching about money. But even so, I don't think there was enough that was passed down to either my parents and henceforth never to like me. Okay. And so.

 

[00:30:36:20] Ramit: What did they say? Did they have any words they used about money?

 

[00:30:40:00] Mick: My dad would not. He was the type that didn't want to buy anything. Like he didn't want to spend on anything at all. Oh, but he was a gambler. Oh.

 

[00:30:51:06] Ramit: Like a like a real gambling addict.

 

[00:30:53:19] Mick: I see. And so that luckily, I didn't inherit that. And so that is something that has always been a struggle. But money like, in terms of, like, bills and stuff. And my parents didn't have the visibility with each other and what was going on. And so.

 

[00:31:12:27] Ramit: How'd the bills get paid?

 

[00:31:13:27] Mick: I have no idea. And then I would be the I mean, when I was a teenager and eventually everything moved online. My parents aren't necessarily that tech savvy, but, you know, once that started happening, I was the one that was at least like making sure that the bills got paid just in terms of like, I would set up an autopay or set up a building.

 

[00:31:31:29] Ramit: You do that as a teenager? No.

 

[00:31:35:04] Mick: But not knowing. Cool, but not knowing where the money came from.

 

[00:31:37:24] Ramit: Yeah, but what about now? You mentioned that you struggled setting up autopay now, like, kind of making sure everything works out, executing correctly. How do you reconcile that?

 

[00:31:48:08] Mick: To be honest with you, it's usually like when the problems happen, it's because I forgot a like one of our cards expired and I didn't change it. Or like those, like little minor missteps, are what kind of get me into trouble in terms of that?

 

[00:32:03:20] Ramit: What do you remember about money at this point once you're in your early 20s?

 

[00:32:07:26] Mick: I just wanted to do stuff and spend money because I, I, I mean, I'm fortunate that I didn't have any student debt, but I was like, oh, I can get a credit card and I can buy whatever I want, I want, I want an X-Box, like, yeah, let's go buy it. And I would, I was just spending like crazy not understanding interest rates, not understanding that making a minimum payment is doing nothing.

 

[00:32:32:23] Ramit: Nobody explain this to.

 

[00:32:33:16] Mick: You know.

 

[00:32:34:12] Ramit: And you did not seek out learning about it.

 

[00:32:38:08] Mick: No. Because I didn't understand that it was hurting me because I was like, oh, I can just make my minimum payments and just keep collecting debt. And there's no consequence to that, okay. And like, I didn't understand credit scores. I didn't understand anything like how a savings account work. I didn't understand how 401 K worked.

 

[00:32:58:11] Ramit: What about now?

 

[00:33:00:04] Mick: Now I do and now I like I. I wish I'd known it sooner.

 

[00:33:06:01] Ramit: Lauren, what do you remember your family saying about money when you were growing up?

 

[00:33:10:13] Lauren: So my mom has always been an entrepreneur. She's on her own business for over 40 years. So, like, her office was at our home. So whenever she wanted something like whether it was a course, she loves doing courses where she can like learn about, you know, more about her business or like get coaching from someone she just like.

 

[00:33:37:16] Ramit: Such as money coaching. Okay. Go on.

 

[00:33:41:22] Lauren: So whenever she wanted to buy something, her rationale was I'll put it on a credit card and then I'll go make the money to pay off the credit card.

 

[00:33:49:23] Ramit: Okay?

 

[00:33:50:15] Lauren: My dad just kind of took care of everything. My mom didn't look at the bills. She didn't even know how to pay bills. But my dad, he didn't really hold any boundaries with my mom because, like, even after he inherited a bunch of money from his dad after he passed, he wanted to put that into a house. And we looked, I remember, like going to different open houses, like to try and get a house.

 

[00:34:19:09] Lauren: And my mom was like, no, no. It was always no. And then we ended up spending it on other things like trips.

 

[00:34:27:19] Ramit: What did you take away from that?

 

[00:34:28:24] Lauren: For me, money just allows you to do things.

 

[00:34:33:28] Ramit: Go deeper than that.

 

[00:34:35:10] Lauren: Money allows you to, I guess, enjoy life, but it's not something you should ever really have to think about.

 

[00:34:44:14] Ramit: That is insightful. I shouldn't really have to think about money. I want to use it on the things I love and that's it.

 

[00:34:52:29] Lauren: And later on, when I became a teenager, I basically reframed that into like, I'm such a great manifestation of money. Like I always figure something out to make it easier. So like when I went to college, like at that point, my parents had gone through bankruptcy and a divorce. And so I was living with my dad, who didn't have a job, and at the time, like Fafsa, like you have to put your parents information.

 

[00:35:27:22] Lauren: Now that they were divorced, they just went through bankruptcy. As long as I put my dad's information on it, who's unemployed? Like, so I got grants for like my entire college. So I didn't have any loans or anything like that.

 

[00:35:42:16] Ramit: So why did they declare bankruptcy?

 

[00:35:44:18] Lauren: Because they had over $140,000 of credit card debt.

 

[00:35:48:26] Ramit: Why?

 

[00:35:49:24] Lauren: Because my mom would put things on a credit card and then try to make money to pay it off, and she couldn't keep up with it. Not a good way to do it.

 

[00:36:00:09] Ramit: But you yourself went into credit card debt, right?

 

[00:36:02:19] Lauren: I asked for an American Express card when I was three.

 

[00:36:07:23] Lauren: It's pretty good. And the only child. My parents were making some pretty good money when I was a kid.

 

[00:36:14:04] Ramit: So how did that happen after seeing your mom go through that? And dad.

 

[00:36:17:24] Lauren: I couldn't pay more than the minimum payment. And so I would just transfer my balance from card to card so that I would get the zero interest. And so I was just holding on to it instead of paying it off. It wasn't going up, but it was just there.

 

[00:36:34:15] Ramit: I think Lauren tries to game the system, but ultimately she games herself, the Legoland and then the Fafsa thing. I don't really mind it, but they all come together to suggest that she's trying to find a way out of any constraints. I don't want to be bound by these. And that is very problematic because if you are going to make a turnaround plan with your money, you actually have to totally buy in.

 

[00:36:58:17] Ramit: You can't try to evade it. You can't try to come up with excuses why it's not a right anymore. You have to say black and white. This is my plan. It is by definition constraining me. And I love it. Until Lauren has a very powerful vision for what she and Mick want to do with their money, they will forever be trying to escape, evade, come up with little ways and diversions around it.

 

[00:37:24:20] Ramit: I have a couple questions about your numbers. $1,100 a month for car and gas. Do you need two cars? Yes. Okay.

 

[00:37:33:22] Mick: How come I commute to work? I have a fairly long commute and then Lauren works hybrid. She works in the office one day a week. The rest she is working from home, so she needs to be able to pick up the boys or take them to whatever.

 

[00:37:50:01] Ramit: Got it. Okay. You have $980 a month in debt payments. That is for your roughly $33,000 consolidated loan. Correct?

 

[00:38:00:08] Lauren: Well, no, because there's a couple things that are about to fall off.

 

[00:38:04:10] Ramit: What are you going to do with extra money?

 

[00:38:06:08] Lauren: Preschool.

 

[00:38:07:18] Ramit: Oh, so I notice there's no childcare on here. Yeah. So how's that?

 

[00:38:12:14] Mick: We're fortunate that my mom was very close to us. She's like, half a block away. Okay. And so she helps immensely with that. And then Lauren works from home.

 

[00:38:24:01] Ramit: How much is preschool going to cost?

 

[00:38:25:23] Lauren: That's a co-op. So it's not like a full service like daycare or anything. Surround four 480.

 

[00:38:36:06] Ramit: Are where is that going to come from?

 

[00:38:40:11] Mick: Yeah. I mean, part of it.

 

[00:38:42:05] Ramit: Lawrence reaction. What was it?

 

[00:38:44:02] Mick: It was. We don't know.

 

[00:38:45:17] Ramit: Yeah. Is yours the same?

 

[00:38:47:12] Mick: A little bit. I mean, yeah, some of it's going to come because we're going to be saving money on our debt payments per month. But otherwise it's one of those things we're like, we'll figure it out.

 

[00:38:59:12] Ramit: Yeah. When are you guys going to start getting ahead of this? Because I feel like for the last, what, 15 years it's been you're behind the eight ball, you're reacting to money. And like, you literally know that you have preschool coming up in a matter of months and you have two kids. Like, there's a lot at stake here.

 

[00:39:19:27] Ramit: And you're talking about potentially having a third or not. When are you going to get ahead of your money?

 

[00:39:25:04] Mick: Well.

 

[00:39:26:14] Lauren: Let's start today.

 

[00:39:27:02] Mick: Hopefully right now. Okay. Yeah. I mean we haven't. So this is the time to do it. I mean, we have to.

 

[00:39:34:27] Ramit: Is there a reason powerful enough for you to change?

 

[00:39:38:04] Mick: I think about my own children all the time in terms of, like, teaching them the right skills. If I'm not setting an example for my own children, they're going to run into the same situation. And like.

 

[00:39:51:29] Ramit: What example are you setting for them.

 

[00:39:53:19] Mick: Right now? Not a good one. I mean, we're setting the example that you don't talk about money. You need to react to it. Yeah.

 

[00:39:59:20] Ramit: What else?

 

[00:40:00:19] Lauren: That you shouldn't even worry about money because we can just do anything we want. I would really love to never have to tell my kids, oh, we can't afford that.

 

[00:40:12:12] Mick: But, I mean, I.

 

[00:40:13:24] Ramit: Can, I can I push on that for one second? So I don't like that phrase. Yeah. Because I find that when parents say that kids internalize it, they don't really understand what afford it means. And then parents repeat it 10,000 times, and then their kid comes on this show with $4 million in their bank account, and they still don't believe they can afford it.

 

[00:40:37:07] Ramit: They have been imbued with this sense of scarcity, regardless of the actual situation of their finances. So I don't like that, but I love saying no to a kid. So are you saying I don't want to say no, or I don't want to say we can't afford it?

 

[00:40:55:09] Lauren: We do say no to him.

 

[00:40:56:25] Mick: I also think we don't stick to our guns enough. I think we'll say no, and then he'll push back, and then it's like, all right. As opposed to, like, no.

 

[00:41:07:13] Lauren: Holding boundaries.

 

[00:41:08:14] Mick: Yeah, there's not enough boundaries. And I think that's also a poor example that we're setting is that we don't hold boundaries with ourselves a lot of ways. And so how are they going to learn boundaries if we're.

 

[00:41:19:25] Ramit: Being go bingo. That is the crux of today. If you can't hold boundaries with yourself, then you can't hold boundaries with your partner. If the two of you can't hold boundaries as a unit, then you definitely can't hold boundaries with your kids. All right, I want to open up your CSP and I want to ask you some questions.

 

[00:41:37:27] Ramit: First thing we're going to do is figure out the preschool because that's coming up. This is a guarantee it is going to happen right now. Your debt is going to go down. It's $980. That's going to come down by how much?

 

[00:41:51:18] Lauren: About 300.

 

[00:41:52:21] Ramit: Okay. So $680.80 6%.

 

[00:41:56:14] Lauren: Well then this is where we get stuck because like we've already switched our phone provider. So we shaved off $100 a month. Car payments are fixed. And like we have an electric car. So we're not paying that much for gas. Still way too high.

 

[00:42:14:13] Ramit: Way too high. It needs to be like 60% or lower. So all right, we'll work with what we got right now. Now you mentioned preschool. That's going to be how much.

 

[00:42:23:16] Lauren: For 80.

 

[00:42:24:14] Ramit: Four.

 

[00:42:24:23] Mick: 80 a month.

 

[00:42:25:28] Ramit: All right let's put it I'm going to put it here on subscriptions okay. That's 730. Watch what happens. What's this number now fixed. 292%. It went up.

 

[00:42:40:00] Mick: Yeah. And even worse position.

 

[00:42:44:04] Ramit: In your heads, I think. You think you'd be doing well. Like, hey, we actually, like, paid off a couple hundred bucks for our phone. That's the story you would tell yourself. That story is at odds with reality, in the same way that the story you tell yourself is like, hey, I'm actually not spending as much as I used to.

 

[00:42:59:23] Ramit: Yeah, but you're spending more than you make every single month. We need reality, not the story that we are telling ourselves. That story is often wrong. I'm not sure they're actually living in any sort of financial reality right now. I think part of the reason why is that they simply have not actually felt real consequences of their financial decisions, even being in a bunch of debt.

 

[00:43:21:15] Ramit: What did they do? Consolidated the loans, which basically is buying some time. No real consequence. Cable hasn't been turned off. Power hasn't been turned off. So how bad is it really? This is how a lot of people think. In their case, they have made a plan. People rarely address the root behaviors that got them into trouble. Like, for example, let's say every morning I wake up at 630, I walk over to the fridge, I take a big old stick of butter and I rub it all over my feet.

 

[00:43:51:25] Ramit: This is what I do in my morning ritual, okay? I rub that shit. It's dripping with butter. And then I just go, oh, let me walk around the house. I slip and fall right into a big old spiderweb with a huge tarantula. And I'm sitting there going, oh, whoa is me. How did I end up in this spiderweb?

 

[00:44:05:09] Ramit: And I finally escaped. And so the next day, you know what I do? I do the exact same thing because I never realized I got to change my route behaviors and not rub butter on my freaking feet. That's how so many people are when it comes to money. They might even make a debt payoff plan, although almost nobody does that.

 

[00:44:21:01] Ramit: But they rarely, rarely address the root cause of how they got into debt in the first place. And if you do not address the root cause, the root behaviors, you're very likely to end right back there. Once again, you know, one element we haven't discussed meaningfully is that they are considering having another child and moving into a house where where's the money going to come from?

 

[00:44:44:13] Ramit: That is what we are talking about next. You had mentioned that your goal is to consider having a third kid and get a three bedroom place. Where is that on the CSP?

 

[00:44:58:19] Mick: It's nowhere. And that's part of the reason why we're here to is like, we'd love to do that, but there's no feasible way of doing that.

 

[00:45:07:13] Ramit: Do you agree with that, Lauren?

 

[00:45:08:23] Lauren: I mean, we still really want a three bedroom. Right now we're in a two bedroom. That is, it's rent controlled, which is great. It's an exact location that we want it to be. It's a pretty big apartment. But the last few months, we've been dealing with a really big cockroach infestation.

 

[00:45:27:24] Ramit: Yeah, you get an exterminator.

 

[00:45:29:17] Lauren: They've come out twice. And it turns out that our neighbors also have it below us. So it's not just us. And it's really gross, really frustrating. We've had to, like, empty out our entire kitchen and bathroom, like both bathrooms and like, yeah, it's I'm over it. Yeah. It's unhealthy.

 

[00:45:53:19] Ramit: Is a landlord say.

 

[00:45:55:01] Lauren: I mean, they've been doing what they can to take care of it. Like yesterday they came and sealed up some of the extra cracks in the kitchen. Okay. And like, I've been talking to our neighbors downstairs because I'm like, well, this is a problem.

 

[00:46:09:21] Ramit: So you want to.

 

[00:46:11:10] Lauren: Yeah.

 

[00:46:11:26] Ramit: Okay. You agree?

 

[00:46:13:03] Mick: I mean, I hope that it worked the treatment, but I there's a lot that I like about our place. Huge. I do like the size of our place. I do the rent is actually very good for the area. And so I think like I would love to have a bigger apartment because I do feel like sometimes we're a little cramped in a two bedroom with the with two boys now.

 

[00:46:36:25] Mick: And so I agree to an extent, but it's also something that I'm like, we can't afford it right now. And it's not because it's not a possibility. I'm not thinking about it as much.

 

[00:46:48:22] Ramit: So what's the decision?

 

[00:46:50:04] Lauren: Well, there's another issue with the apartment two.

 

[00:46:54:22] Lauren: Every time it rains, it leaks. And it's been like that for the last three years. The point where now we have mold growing under.

 

[00:47:02:06] Ramit: How can you stay here with kids? I mean. Exactly like I'm usually like the guy, like, let's cut the fixed costs. But this is crazy. Yeah. Two kids in mold and roaches like.

 

[00:47:12:00] Lauren: And like we're on the third floor. Like we should not be getting roaches on the third floor.

 

[00:47:16:08] Ramit: So I'm, like, kind of confused. Why not get decisive about this? This sounds. At first it was like, all right, a couple of roaches. Then I'm like, wait, what then?

 

[00:47:23:22] Lauren: I mean, we've been trying to get this all under control, and once we get it under control, then we were gonna start looking. But as of right now, we're not getting it under control.

 

[00:47:38:16] Ramit: So you're just, like, stuck?

 

[00:47:40:00] Lauren: Yeah.

 

[00:47:40:26] Ramit: Like you are mentally stuck right now.

 

[00:47:43:17] Mick: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think part of it is that, I mean, we do feel stuck because I can't feasibly see a way for us to move when we're paying what we currently do for rent. Yeah. You'll have to move.

 

[00:47:57:27] Ramit: Way for.

 

[00:47:58:10] Mick: Far away. Yeah.

 

[00:47:59:14] Lauren: And which we can't because we really love our son's school.

 

[00:48:04:09] Mick: Well, we do love the school. But the other thing too, is we are also close to my mom, and so. And she's not going to move.

 

[00:48:10:22] Ramit: Why don't you move in with her? Yeah. She's she's.

 

[00:48:13:04] Lauren: She lives.

 

[00:48:13:16] Mick: With.

 

[00:48:13:23] Ramit: My brother. Yeah. It's a family affair. Okay, so you obviously have to make a decision. Like, if you're going to stay here, stay here. But like, this whole, like, we want to do this, but we can't do that because of this and that. It's like driving everybody crazy. So, like, I, I get the sense you all are not particularly decisive.

 

[00:48:33:24] Ramit: I think it's time to become especially as parents, you you can't just be like, we'll see.

 

[00:48:39:21] Mick: I mean, my decision would be to stay because.

 

[00:48:42:20] Ramit: That's fine. Yeah. No explanation needed. Lauren.

 

[00:48:45:17] Lauren: I need more time before I'm going to be ready to move out. So if we set a date.

 

[00:48:51:28] Ramit: Pick the date two months from now.

 

[00:48:55:17] Mick: I think we can do that in two years.

 

[00:48:57:18] Lauren: Next year.

 

[00:48:58:17] Mick: If we can make it work, then. Yeah. My biggest concern is that, like, I really love where we live.

 

[00:49:03:11] Lauren: We don't even have enough savings to move.

 

[00:49:05:16] Mick: I mean, that's the other thing too, is like, how are we even going to move?

 

[00:49:09:06] Ramit: Okay, I'm gonna put your CSP up on screen. I want you to show me how, okay, what's the rent going to be? What's a realistic number.

 

[00:49:16:21] Mick: 4203.

 

[00:49:18:14] Ramit: Do you agree?

 

[00:49:19:06] Lauren: It kind of depends if we're looking at an apartment or a house.

 

[00:49:24:01] Ramit: How about whatever's cheaper?

 

[00:49:25:13] Lauren: I want a house.

 

[00:49:26:15] Ramit: All right. How much?

 

[00:49:29:21] Lauren: In our area? It would probably be around 4500 for, like a townhouse.

 

[00:49:33:23] Ramit: He said 4200?

 

[00:49:35:12] Mick: Yeah, because I was thinking in apartment.

 

[00:49:39:23] Mick: We put 4500 and see what we can do.

 

[00:49:42:05] Ramit: All right. Fine. 4500. Watch. Mick, your job is to get us down to 60% with a three bedroom. You're now at 112%.

 

[00:49:50:27] Mick: Yeah, it can't happen.

 

[00:49:51:26] Ramit: So it's impossible for you to get a three bedroom house. You were already at 92%. You're going the wrong direction. I need you to accept reality. It is not possible to increase your housing costs in the next two years. Impossible. You are almost homeless. I don't know if you realize that.

 

[00:50:18:17] Ramit: We're talking about like. I like my neighborhood. I like you to have a roof with two kids. The luxury that you want is not available to you anymore. You have spent too much money.

 

[00:50:30:13] Mick: The thing is, I don't think about those things because I'm like, this is an impossibility. So it's off of my mind.

 

[00:50:35:00] Ramit: So you might as well just not pay attention and just wait until life forces you to do something.

 

[00:50:39:14] Mick: I mean, I think we have the ability to do it, but right now, that's where we're where we're stuck. We don't know how right now it is really just that we're just figuring out how to make it work. I don't. That's just the way that we've always thought of it, and I guess we didn't take it seriously.

 

[00:50:58:10] Lauren: It's just so interesting because I, I've been thinking about how we always present ourselves as a unified team. And just from this conversation, I'm realizing that there are a lot of kinks in the communication.

 

[00:51:15:22] Ramit: Tell me, name them please. I think you're onto something.

 

[00:51:19:00] Lauren: Just not taking the time to talk about money and to plan for the future. And we have been very reactive about all of our spending. And I think part of that is, you know, because of the trauma of him losing his job, and it's just been one thing after another ever since. And we just lock the confidence in ourselves to make a plan that we can stick to.

 

[00:51:55:28] Lauren: We don't I don't believe that if I set a plan that I would be able to actually carry it through.

 

[00:52:01:26] Ramit: Agency, that belief in yourself. Okay.

 

[00:52:06:27] Lauren: So making a plan, it feels like I get really in my head. I make the plan, I'm really excited about it. And then something else happens where I'm like, well, forget about that.

 

[00:52:20:19] Ramit: Can I reframe what you said in a different way, like how I might look at your exact situation, but from my perspective. So I might look at it like this. I might say, wow, we both used to be in a lot of debt. We made a lot of poor money decisions. We've come a long way. I'm really proud of that.

 

[00:52:40:28] Ramit: And I think that make and I should celebrate that. But I also know that for us to get to where we want to go, we need to completely level up. We need to level up in the way that we think about money, the way that we talk about money, behave with money and feel about money. And finally, I used to tell myself, it's one thing after another, one thing keeps coming up and I'm flipping that to now acknowledge life is always going to throw things our way.

 

[00:53:11:03] Ramit: We are going to be strong enough to deal with each and every one of them. Same situation, different interpretation. What did you notice?

 

[00:53:21:04] Lauren: All positive language? Yes.

 

[00:53:23:25] Ramit: What else.

 

[00:53:25:02] Lauren: Acknowledges that we are working on it and moving forward instead of being stagnant.

 

[00:53:34:05] Ramit: Never stagnant? Great. All of this hedging and hesitancy is getting them nowhere. They desperately need to get the ball, frankly, any ball rolling in the right direction. And one of the messages that you hear me saying today is be decisive. Stop waiting. Start taking action right now. If you are ready to stop simply watching this podcast and start taking action with your money, I recommend you join my Money coaching program.

 

[00:54:00:00] Ramit: Right now I coaching. You'll actually be shocked at how much progress you can make in just 48 hours. You can join the program, have a plan, understand your money and know exactly what to do next. I com slash coaching. Now let's get back to the CSP with Lauren and Mick because there is a way to make their dreams a reality.

 

[00:54:23:13] Ramit: Can you guess what it is?

 

[00:54:27:26] Mick: I think we can make more money. I especially think Lauren can make a lot more money than me. I don't make that much more than you, but I do make more than you currently. And I do feel that like your skill set is much more valuable than you've credited yourself for. And I've talked to you about it a few times, and you've been so comfortable in your job that I've stopped asking because you haven't moved on it.

 

[00:54:52:29] Mick: You could be making twice as much as what you're making with what you can do.

 

[00:54:58:15] Lauren: My boss has called me the Swiss Army Knife of the office. My title is Special Projects Manager.

 

[00:55:06:17] Lauren: They're paying for me to get a certification and project management, so, like, whatever. But I basically have created a situation for myself where I have such a diverse skill set because I also do web development, I do accounting, I do like everything event planning. And he's been trying to encourage me to look for something that pays more.

 

[00:55:41:05] Lauren: But we work with like nonprofits, and I feel like I am doing something positive for the world by, you know, creating, creating things for these associations that we work with. It's really fulfilling. I have a lot of flexibility in my schedule. I can like pretty much set my own schedule. If I need overtime. I just say, hey, I need some overtime to finish, finish this.

 

[00:56:09:18] Lauren: And they're like, okay, you got it. It just doesn't make as much as I potentially could. Like, I could easily, with my skill set, make six figures. I mean, I don't know about in this job market, but.

 

[00:56:26:25] Ramit: It seems like the two of you are very comfortable.

 

[00:56:28:29] Lauren: It's scary when this is like, the only job that I've had. It was my college job and it's been stable.

 

[00:56:40:01] Ramit: Would you like to see how much you'd have to make? Yeah, sure. What's realistic right now? So each of you makes I mean together you make 150 K, which is a good income. I'm very open when it's feasible to get like a big raise. I'm always like negotiate, get a new job. I mean, tough right now.

 

[00:56:56:19] Lauren: I'm hourly. I've been working at the same place for 16 years. I get about a 2% raise every year. They also match 401, which is the reason that I have a 401 K.

 

[00:57:09:00] Ramit: Wait a minute. Day match your 401 K up to what? Percent?

 

[00:57:12:11] Lauren: 4%.

 

[00:57:13:13] Ramit: But you've only been getting 2% increases for the last 16 years.

 

[00:57:17:22] Lauren: I mean, there was one point where I went to them and I told them that I needed a significant increase. They gave me, I want to say like $6,000 increase that year, and then it's still just been 2% since then.

 

[00:57:33:21] Ramit: Do you all think it's feasible to increase your income enough?

 

[00:57:36:22] Lauren: Well, I was going to say that I also do overtime. Okay. Because I work at events and I've been asking for more opportunities to work overtime.

 

[00:57:45:19] Ramit: Good.

 

[00:57:46:05] Lauren: So like next week I'm going to a conference where I'll be working 12 hour days.

 

[00:57:51:06] Ramit: Yeah. So how much is your income going to go up.

 

[00:57:54:24] Lauren: Realistically, without burning myself out? I could probably make another five grand.

 

[00:58:02:17] Ramit: Per what?

 

[00:58:03:13] Lauren: Per year?

 

[00:58:04:02] Ramit: Per year. So let's call it 350 bucks. So we'll call it 411. Oh, I'm just ballpark in here, but it's in the ballpark. Watch the number on fixed costs. It's currently 11 111%. It went to 108%.

 

[00:58:18:04] Lauren: I guess I'll start looking.

 

[00:58:21:28] Mick: Well I mean I from what I'm seeing, like I don't see a feasible way for us to move unless we're making more money. I mean, we cut back as much as we could, and we're still spending way too much with the amount of money that we make now. Like, you know, the salary where we live, if we were in, who knows where could go a long way, but one I'm not going to.

 

[00:58:49:26] Mick: I don't work remote, so I, I can't move away from my job. But I also I do think that's part of where we are stuck is that maybe it's not we're not being ambitious enough with our own careers sometimes.

 

[00:59:06:04] Lauren: So I have a question for you. At what point would you feel comfortable asking for a raise?

 

[00:59:12:23] Mick: 

 

[00:59:14:16] Lauren: Because he's director of fundraising to him. Your director of fundraising? I director role?

 

[00:59:21:13] Mick: Yeah.

 

[00:59:21:22] Lauren: 1980.

 

[00:59:23:03] Mick: Yeah, I know, I, I think I'm in a really unique situation where I am at my work, and until I can produce the results that I'd like, I am not going to feel comfortable asking for a raise at work. I'm a fundraiser, so I have to raise funds to justify my own role. So I would have to be earning enough for my organization in order to justify asking for more money.

 

[00:59:57:06] Lauren: Do you know that you won't receive it.

 

[00:59:59:12] Mick: 100%? Probably would be 2 or 3 years down the line before you would even attempt it. Honestly, it's the whole reason that I haven't been even thinking about it because in my mind it's like it's not possible.

 

[01:00:11:03] Lauren: I also we haven't mentioned that his base pay is like 80, and he has the potential of earning up to 20 grand in bonuses. So like even if you ask about a raise and they say no, there's still the potential for you to get that bonus. So like, what can I do to support you to.

 

[01:00:37:06] Mick: Well, I did get a I did get a bonus though.

 

[01:00:40:00] Lauren: Well can I finish my question. What can I do to support you to get the maximum bonus. Because what you got was like he got like five grand.

 

[01:00:52:22] Mick: I don't know that you can do more to help me with it.

 

[01:00:55:21] Ramit: So okay, so we're done. So it's not happening. So now the question is do you stay in your place. Let's take that number down. What is it 2580 88%. It's still too high. Either you downsize, move further away, and or we need to cut more costs.

 

[01:01:13:24] Mick: I don't see us moving somewhere far.

 

[01:01:16:02] Ramit: I added 15% from the CSP, and I would like to fix that because a couple in your situation, you should not be spending $1,000 on miscellaneous. I'll give you 250 in case something comes up. We're down to 79%. Okay. What else? How bold decisions do you want to make? I actually don't get the sense that you want to get aggressive.

 

[01:01:42:04] Lauren: I'm so scared.

 

[01:01:44:01] Ramit: Scared of.

 

[01:01:45:08] Lauren: Our lifestyle changing. Yeah. Considerably.

 

[01:01:48:23] Ramit: Yeah. So? So you're scared of your lifestyle changing, and you would prefer to keep it the same?

 

[01:01:53:22] Lauren: Well, because, like, the groceries I do all the grocery shopping and the meal planning, and I plan all the meals for the week, and I, I don't buy organic.

 

[01:02:05:25] Mick: I that is not true. That is not true.

 

[01:02:09:15] Lauren: Okay.

 

[01:02:11:03] Speaker 4: I get organic.

 

[01:02:12:06] Lauren: Bananas and milk and that's about it.

 

[01:02:15:10] Ramit: What am I hearing from you? You're scared of what?

 

[01:02:18:03] Lauren: Well, with the groceries. Because I work from home and I'm with our two year old all day convenience foods. Really important because I can barely even think of what to make myself for lunch. Yeah. So having quick options that are already ready for my toddler is like, I need it for my mental health.

 

[01:02:45:20] Ramit: I guess I'm going to say something that's going to be uncomfortable to hear, which is I can't even appreciate how hard it is to be at home with a two year old. And yet I still need you to find a solution to this, because the money you have right now, this not working, you will end up without a house.

 

[01:03:07:11] Ramit: You will end up without enough money in the bank. It will be gone. And respectfully, that does not really concern me. Your need for pre-made food is just irrelevant when we are talking about the health of your family. So I'm not saying it's you. You're a bad person. I'm not saying that. Find a solution. Let's do it right now.

 

[01:03:33:08] Ramit: What is it going to be?

 

[01:03:34:16] Mick: I mean, the cuts that you put up there are reasonable in terms of like what we can do in terms of our rent. I don't it'd be great to move somewhere less expensive, but there's not a lot of places around that I have to be around.

 

[01:03:51:06] Ramit: If you make no changes but you nibble around the edges. Yeah. What happens?

 

[01:03:57:24] Lauren: We just stay in the same situation that we're.

 

[01:04:00:04] Ramit: In and your tires will get flat and something will come up and you will continue going on through life. One thing coming up after another, slowly reacting. You'll wear down your savings. You'll tap into your investments, you'll go back into debt. That'll keep going for a while. That'll become unsustainable. And then it gets dangerous.

 

[01:04:20:28] Mick: No. Yeah.

 

[01:04:23:19] Speaker 5: This is a pretty frustrating.

 

[01:04:25:00] Ramit: Conversation for me, in part because I can see there are so many different ways for them to get out of this financial mess and to actually start building some serious stability. But the thing is, I can't make them see it, and if I can't make them see it, I certainly cannot make them do it. It will be really easy for me to just be like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

 

[01:04:45:11] Ramit: Here's a seven things I would do. It's so easy. It's going to be hard. But you could do it. It will just go right over their heads. I am intentionally going slow. I'm actually intentionally sitting in the frustration because I want them to come to the conclusion themselves. What I try to do here is to get them together, to see where they are, and then to see a path forward.

 

[01:05:09:17] Ramit: The problem is with this couple, they're not even willing to take an honest look at where they are, so we can't even get to where they want to go. I am not going to save you. You two will save you or you will sink. I don't even know why you think you need more money. Like what do you get?

 

[01:05:33:16] Ramit: Does anybody know?

 

[01:05:34:18] Mick: Well, yeah. The first thing is there's two things. And these are really the comes down to the only two things that we want, which is a larger apartment and to save more.

 

[01:05:46:26] Ramit: That's it. Great. So if you make an extra $2,000 a month, what would happen to.

 

[01:05:52:15] Mick: It that's going to go to rent and it's going to go to savings okay.

 

[01:05:55:25] Ramit: Go to both. You don't have enough. I think that right now there's no clear vision. It's just like, this is like kind of bad. Like we should do something. So everyone's just pulling out random jabs to, like, you make more money? No, you make more money. But, like, if you truly understood the severity of your situation and you understood a path, then you would both be on board and you'd both be like, hey, one way or another, we as a household need to make $200,000 a year, but right now it's just you do this.

 

[01:06:30:15] Ramit: No, you do this. I can't do it. Okay, fine. End of story. You don't have a why? You don't understand your numbers. So you're stuck in the tactical weeds.

 

[01:06:42:13] Mick: I mean, I think it's we probably need to set a goal with a timeline, because if we don't have a timeline, then there's no there's no tackling it because we don't understand when it needs to happen.

 

[01:06:56:18] Ramit: Then just happen now. You need to increase your household income. Now you need to cut your expenses and keep them going lower, not higher. But the way you've set your life up is that they're actually only going higher. Preschool, etc. etc. and we haven't even talked about the inability to say no to the kids like it is. You have to do 50 things right if you want to stay living in the same place because of what you have locked yourself into.

 

[01:07:27:04] Ramit: And that seems to me to be very difficult. Here are your options. As I see it, one or both of you could get a salary increase or switch jobs. That'd be great. That would actually help a lot. A lot. If one of you did that and made ballpark an extra 30,000, $40,000, that would be amazing. One or both of you combined, your savings need to be booked up like massively.

 

[01:07:53:28] Ramit: Right now you have $5,000 in savings. You really should have like $42,000 in savings. I would not even entertain the idea of moving until you had at least a year's worth $70,000 of savings. I wouldn't even think about it if I lived in a rent controlled place in a neighborhood you like. That's it. Like we're not moving. And I'm sorry about the roaches and the mold.

 

[01:08:24:07] Ramit: I would seriously consider what you can do about that, put more pressure on the landlord, start documenting things, etc. but either you move to a way cheaper place, which probably means not in LA, so you got to go. Oh you're there. You determine that it is safe and that's it. There's no discussion about a three bedroom house. That's not happening, not for the next 5 to 10 years.

 

[01:08:50:12] Ramit: This is the reason why I've been, like, a little impatient with the stories that you are telling yourself about all the reasons you can't. You will be poor in the near term. You may lose your housing and you will certainly be poor in the long term. So I think that kind of like it's a bit of like a sitcom environment right now.

 

[01:09:12:15] Ramit: There's a lot of kind of jokes and stuff and like, I think it's funny, but it's not that funny, actually. I want respect for money. I want respect for your family. So what do you want to do? Lauren? I see your thinking here.

 

[01:09:24:11] Lauren: I mean, my first step is going to be, well, our first step is going to be setting a time to sit down, finish combining our accounts. Okay. Make sure that both of us have visibility on everything. We set a new contrast spending plan where we cut our expenses. I think coming up with some guardrails in advance would be helpful, because sometimes we forget where the line is.

 

[01:09:56:07] Ramit: I love that, I love guardrails, I love like signs that make it very clear it's either a yes or no. And I don't have to decide because if it's up to me, I want to get it all. That's how it works. That's how money is taught.

 

[01:10:08:15] Lauren: Both of us ask for a raise.

 

[01:10:13:13] Ramit: And if you don't get it.

 

[01:10:15:16] Lauren: Look for other opportunities.

 

[01:10:17:28] Ramit: Yes, one way or another, the household income has to go up, and it has to go up to a point where your fixed costs are at 60% or below. It's going to be hard. You've locked yourself in. You may have to really get creative. One car, so many different things. You may have to do food. All the easy stuff has to be done decisively.

 

[01:10:38:04] Ramit: Like there can't be any discussion about that, but there's hard stuff to be done.

 

[01:10:43:15] Mick: Now, even with the preschool, it's hard because we have a co-op preschool because it's the cheapest option. Preschool is expensive and.

 

[01:10:51:14] Ramit: That's expensive. You you have structurally set yourself up to have massive fixed costs. That's what you got. Even though you have a low rent, everything around you is expensive. Groceries are expensive, transportation is expensive. That like part of what I'm trying to encourage you to do is accept reality. If you choose to live there, then you need to make more.

 

[01:11:14:28] Ramit: That's it. End of story. And if it means working weekends and you're tired, that's life. It's a tough it's a tough situation. I understand, but I would rather be the one to tell you than to have you tread water one one step forward, two steps back, and then one day just. It's too much. What questions do you have.

 

[01:11:36:22] Lauren: Once we get out of this? I have no idea what to do next.

 

[01:11:43:24] Ramit: Yeah. Good question. Well, I think, you know, for me. Step one, especially if I'm a parent of two, is I want stability. Stability comes in the form of a big fat savings account. 10,000. Then 25,000 and $70,000. Yes. And what that allows is that when life comes at you, a medical expense, something you didn't predict, you have that money to fall back on when you have that, or at least you're working towards it.

 

[01:12:18:24] Ramit: You don't have to have 70 K in the bank, but you have to have a plan where, you know, just like your debt payoff. When will we have 12 months of emergency fund? All the other stuff comes later. I just think first things first is you need stability. I think sometimes people watch this podcast because they expect that somebody is going to come here with a problem.

 

[01:12:39:16] Ramit: Im going to do some cool math magic and then they're going to walk out totally successful. That's actually not the point of this podcast. The point of this podcast is to highlight real stories from real people behind closed doors. Sometimes we make a radical transformation. Amazing, I love it, sometimes we make no progress. I also love that because each of those couples gets to share their story.

 

[01:13:07:06] Ramit: So if I were you watching this, listening to this, I would not evaluate an episode based on how big of a progress change do they make? I wouldn't even evaluate it based on how much you like a couple. I would evaluate each episode based on what's. One thing that I can take away that I learned? What is one thing that surprised me that I might actually be doing, that I can take away and apply to my own relationship?

 

[01:13:37:09] Ramit: I'm wishing the absolute best for Lauren and Mick. I am hoping that they come up with a plan and that they get a lot of help, because they're in a really serious situation and it will take big changes made very quickly in order for them to get out of it. Now let's check out their follow ups.

 

[01:13:55:09] Lauren: So it's been about a week since our conversation with For Meat, and it's time for a little update. Mike and I have decided to implement weekly conversations where we talk about all the bills that are about to be paid, how we're doing with our savings goals, things like that. And like in all those conversations that we've had so far, we realized that the numbers that we used on the podcast weren't entirely accurate.

 

[01:14:22:24] Lauren: We also don't think that that 15% miscellaneous is a real number. We looked into our subscriptions, we cut a bunch, but also realized that we weren't actually paying as much as we thought we were. I kind of estimated hi. So that number has been cut, but like $200 a month. And then through all of these conversations, we agreed that our conversation with roomie lacked a lot of context.

 

[01:14:52:22] Lauren: We are not in agreement about the solutions that Ruby gave us. We don't think that they're realistic for our situation. We also don't think that we paid enough credence to our ADHD diagnoses, and really are disappointed about the lack of homework that he did about ADHD as it affects so many millennials, which is a start demographic. So we're creating our own plan.

 

[01:15:29:03] Lauren: And the biggest takeaway is really just to keep talking about money and not make it a taboo topic. So I'm really excited. I think that MEC and I are in a really good place, and with a little bit of time and effort, I think that we're going to continue to grow financially and become a well-oiled machine. And I'm really excited to not have any more anxiety about money.

 

[01:15:59:04] Mick: Thanks again for having us on your podcast. It really was an eye opening experience, albeit sometimes a little bit more intense than I anticipated. I think the one real big positive takeaway from this experience is that Lauren and I have been making consistent time to speak about our finances. We dove deep into the details of what we're spending, and pleasantly surprised by the fact that we're spending a lot less in our fixed costs than we had originally estimated.

 

[01:16:32:06] Mick: But before the podcast and during the podcast, we also were able to cut back some really simple things that we just didn't need and didn't realize we were paying, which was a great thing. I think one thing I really wish that we did dive a little bit deeper into during the podcast was regarding the fact that Lauren and I both have ADHD, and I think folks that also have it or have other forms of neurodivergent see a very unique spending habits because of it.

 

[01:17:07:29] Mick: And I felt that it was a little bit glossed over and dismissed, which I was a bit disappointed by. Hopefully in the future there can either be a follow up, or you might be able to do a little bit more work into how folks that have ADHD spend to have a more nuanced conversation. I also felt like certain things regarding parenthood or pets were also a little bit dismissed or not portrayed in an accurate or entirely realistic way that I wish they were.

 

[01:17:41:08] Mick: Ultimately, I think this was a positive experience for Lauren and I because we were able to kind of open those doors of communication and really look into exactly what we're spending and create clear goals for ourselves that weren't necessarily something just like move into a different neighborhood or make more money. While both of those things would be great, I don't think they're entirely realistic for our situation.

 

[01:18:07:22] Mick: So we've been able to double down and figure out what we've been doing. That's good. Cut back on some of the things that we didn't even realize we were spending on and didn't need, and, and make some good decisions going forward.

 

[01:18:26:04] Ramit: Interesting follow ups. I appreciate Lauren and Mick sending the follow ups. I appreciate them making some changes, and I want to let you know that I think it's very courageous for anyone to come on the money for couples show. As you can see from the diverse types of guests that we have on this show, it is personally important to me that we have people from all different walks of life socioeconomic, gender, sexual orientation, geography, all of it.

 

[01:18:51:00] Ramit: Honestly, you have a point. If you have ADHD, things that other people take for granted come much harder to you. And many people don't understand that. So often they look down at people and they say, why don't you just do this? It's not that hard. Well, actually, if you have ADHD, it can be quite hard. With that said, I'm a little surprised by some of the feedback and some of the advice that they gave me.

 

[01:19:15:15] Ramit: Now, I'm not an expert in ADHD diagnoses, but I absolutely acknowledge that it affects the way that we manage our money. That's one of the reasons that I invited a friend of mine, Doctor Christine Hargrove, to come to our money coaching program and give a talk about ADHD and money that is among many of the other programs that we have for all of our money coaching members.

 

[01:19:37:16] Ramit: But I'm not an expert in ADHD diagnoses, nor will I ever be. And so therefore it is your responsibility to manage your ADHD, not to expect me to become an expert. I do think that some of us have certain characteristics that make managing money, or becoming healthier, or staying connected to our family harder than for others. But the fact is, we have to acknowledge that, and we still have to find a way to make it work.

 

[01:20:03:29] Ramit: In other words, pointing at ADHD and saying, this is why we are not able to manage our money. That just doesn't fly with me. Yes it exists. Yes, it's hard, but you still got to find a way to succeed. And that may be by consulting doctors, coaches. There are tons of resources out there. It may not be here, but my goal for you would be to come here and adapt the lessons you learn for your own situation.

 

[01:20:28:27] Ramit: I'm not sure that I saw that in your follow ups. What I noticed was finger pointing at me for not becoming an expert in ADHD. But that's not fair. That's not a fair expectation for me. And you're actually not taking responsibility for how you need to manage your diagnosis. So I hope the best for Lauren and Mick. I want to see big changes because this is serious situation, but I want to emphasize that it's got to come from you, not for me.

 

[01:21:00:18] Ramit: Listen up. If you want my help with your specific money questions, there are only two ways to get it. First, you can apply to be on this podcast at WTA. Or second, you can join my money coaching program instantly at.

 

[01:21:18:02] Ramit: In that program you get access to live virtual events, monthly group coaching calls, live Q&A, and an amazing huge community of other people like you. Check it out at.