Episode 225. “We’re losing $5k/mo. Where is it all going?”

Lashan (50) and David (49) have been married for nearly two decades, raising three children and building stable government careers. But when health complications and a sudden return-to-office mandate pressured Lashan into early retirement, their income dropped. Suddenly, $5,000 a month seems to vanish into thin air. Lashan, meticulous and controlling with money, carries the full weight of their financial future, while David remains passive and supportive from the sidelines.

But the stakes are high: a mortgage, looming college costs, and the urgency to create meaningful memories while Lashan still can. Can Ramit help them uncover where the money is going, build a roadmap for the future, and finally get David to step up as a true financial partner?

In this episode we uncover:

• Why Lashan was pressured into early retirement
• How $5,000 a month in “guilt-free spending” keeps disappearing
• How David’s childhood scarcity shaped his urge to spend money now
• Evictions and shut-off notices from Lashan’s childhood have driven her obsession with control and bill paying
• Why David earned the “ignorant reassurer” label
• How compartmentalizing her terminal diagnosis keeps Lashan focused on bills instead of her deepest fears
• Ramit’s challenge to flip their money roles
• The invisible financial work Lashan handles that David barely sees
• Why paying bills feels like love and safety for Lashan
• How Lashan ended up caring for everyone else but not herself

Chapters:

(00:00:00) “I’ve cried more about leaving my job than my diagnosis”

(00:19:25) Ramit breaks down their numbers

(00:38:02) “Eviction notices… the electricity might be off”

(00:46:32) “I’m going to die… and I can’t do this all alone”

(01:10:44) Redefining what family memories look like

(01:20:28) Paying off debt isn’t enough—planning for life after

(01:28:23) “I feel like I see the possibility for joy and fun”

(01:36:01) Where are they now? Lashan and David’s follow-ups

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Links mentioned in this episode 

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Transcript 

Download the full transcript PDF 

[00:00:03] Lashan: I don't think that we're spending that much. I don't think that's right.

[00:00:07] Ramit: $5,000 a month on guilt-free spending. Where is it?

[00:00:10] Lashan: I don't know.

[00:00:10] David: She pretty much takes care of that. She handles it. Oftentimes she may pay bills that I don't know about.

[00:00:17] Lashan: If I have extra, I'm like, $1,000 on the credit card, 1,500 on the HELOC. I don't think that's happening.

[00:00:24] Ramit: Where's the rest of the money going? $5,000 a month. What are you spending money on?

[Narration]

[00:00:29] Ramit: Listen to what Lashan wrote in her application. "I manage the finances, which is already stressful. I just opted to retire early from my federal job due to health concerns, and now I'm even more anxious. I worry that I made the wrong decision and that my family will be on the street because of it."

[00:00:50] Today I'm talking with Lashan and David. She's 50, he's 49, and their entire financial life just changed overnight. Lashan made the decision to retire very quickly, and you're going to hear why in our conversation. But as the one managing their money, she is panicked. Did I make a huge mistake? Are we going to lose everything? And now they're asking the same question many couples do when their income changes. Are we going to be okay?

[00:01:17] Let's look at their numbers. I'm going to pull up their conscious spending plan right now, which tells me how much they make, how much they spend, and what their four key numbers are. If you want to run your own numbers the same way I do, download your free conscious spending plan at iwt.com/csp.

[00:01:35] Here we go. Assets, 586,952. Investments, 824,198. Savings, 30,377. Debt, $227,457. Total net worth, 1.2 million. Fixed costs, 50%. Investments, 0. That's a bit concerning. Savings, 6%. And guilt-free spending, a whopping 44%. Okay. Honestly, these numbers look pretty great for a couple in their late 40s, early 50s, but I suspect these numbers are going to change quite a bit with one income coming down because of early retirement. So I have a lot of questions. Let's get started with Lashan and David

[Interview]

[00:02:24] Ramit: Lashan, you have been the financial leader in your family for decades, and you are now facing a terminal diagnosis, and your income is about to disappear. That is a lot. What are the words going through your mind as you think about your current situation?

[00:02:51] Lashan: I think fear is probably the big one. And I guess feeling unsure. My income decreases after September 30th. That's really where a lot of my anxiety comes from, is that it's such a big drop, that how do we maintain our life, pay our bills, and all that stuff? And also, how do we make sure that however many years that I have, that we are in a good position and then even when I'm gone, that he's in a good position and that everybody is going to be taken care of, and that I can feel good that they're going to be good.

[00:03:32] Ramit: Hmm. Okay. David, how did you feel when Lashan made the decision to retire early?

[00:03:42] David: I supported her. Because of the political situation we were in and the changes they were making at her job, she probably would've had to go into the office, which she's been working from home. We live about two to three hours away. So for her to have to commute two to three hours each way, five days a week. And then we still didn't know exactly what was going to happen. Everything was uncertain. So I felt like she made the best decision that she could with the information we had.

[00:04:11] Ramit: Okay. Let me understand a little bit more about the context of this decision that you made to retire early. Can you tell me what led to this?

[00:04:20] Lashan: I am a federal employee. I don't know if you're familiar, but when the new administration came in, they had something called the deferred resignation or retirement program. It came out. I was like, "All right, this seems like a scam." Completely not anticipating, leaving or anything like that.

[00:04:40] And that was 1, DRP 1. And then on like April 7th, they came out with DRP 2.0, and they gave a option of a early retirement. If you have a certain amount of years in service and you're a certain age, you're eligible for it.

[00:04:55] Again, totally ignored it. And that was Monday. And about Wednesday, one of my coworkers, who was also on something called reasonable accommodation, that's why we were working from home full time, she said she had gotten an alternative accommodation that wanted her to come back into the office.

[00:05:16] And I was like, "Okay." And so that was very surprising because we had been told that reasonable accommodations wouldn't be touched. And then my supervisor was like, "This is what I'm hearing. It's coming down the pipe that they're going to start offering alternative accommodations and that you might not be able to really argue against it because they weren't denying it." But the alternative wasn't really based on our actual medical situation because they couldn't see our medical situation because of HIPAA.

[00:05:49] Ramit: I see. Is this the same situation as the emails that Elon Musk sent out?

[00:05:53] Lashan: Yes.

[00:05:54] Ramit: Oh [Bleep]. Okay. I imagine there was a lot of that going around. Well, hey, you're the federal employee, so you probably can't say it, but I can. [Bleep] this DOGE [Bleep]. Completely fake. You don't have to say anything. Don't put yourself in any trouble. I don't know what your views are. But as the son of somebody who worked for the state of California, my dad, there's a lot of very hardworking people who worked for the local, state, and federal government.

[00:06:20] And to go in there and basically accuse everyone of being wasteful and fraudulent, which of course they never found any evidence just really, really, personally angers me. Anyway, thank you for clarifying the situation. I also understand that there was a medical diagnosis. Feel free to share as much as you're comfortable with, but could you tell me a little bit about how the medical part of this has played in?

[00:06:47] Lashan: In May of 2022, my cancer returned. I received a diagnosis of metastatic breast cancer, which is not curable. We all have a shelf life. Mine is probably going to be a lot shorter than most people's. And so the doctor is just giving me medication to take on a daily basis. And he's like, "One day the medication will stop working. We'll try something else. And then one day nothing will work." So that's the environment that I am considering like, "Oh, I might have to come into work while I'm dealing with this."

[00:07:23] Ramit: You seem very calm talking about it. I would assume you've thought about this a lot, probably every day since you've received it. Is that the case?

[00:07:33] Lashan: No, I am a superhero of a compartmentalizer. I put it in a box. And honestly, I probably cried more about the decision to leave my position than I have about getting my diagnosis. I think I'm a lot more pragmatic. I don't want to leave my family, but you never ask why, because in the whole world, everybody's dealing with something.

[00:08:01] Ramit: Okay. That is surprising to me, but I totally understand it, especially when you use the word pragmatic. That resonates with me a lot. How long is the range of how long you have? I'm asking because it would affect some of the financial decisions you're making.

[00:08:21] Lashan: I've seen like an average of seven years, so definitely I know that there's people who I'm sure are much longer, and I'm at year three since my diagnosis. So I'm hoping to be a person that is exceeding the average.

[00:08:39] Ramit: Me too. Okay. Thank you Lashan for giving me the background. That is so how helpful. David, when you heard about these retirement options going around and Lashan decided to make the early retirement decision, what was your involvement in that decision?

[00:09:02] David: She asked me what I thought, and because we didn't have a lot of information about the course of action that her job was going to take as far as the reasonable accommodations, it was like this was an opportunity with the deferred retirement to still get paid through September versus her turning that down and then possibly having to just leave or being fired because she couldn't accommodate the reasonable accommodations that they were going to give her. So I think that was the best decision that we could make with what we knew.

[00:09:36] Ramit: How long did you discuss this before you made a decision? What was that time period?

[00:09:40] David: It was a couple of days, I think.

[00:09:44] Ramit: What?

[00:09:45] Lashan: Yeah.

[00:09:45] David: It was a couple of days because we didn't really have a lot of time to make the decision. It was over a weekend, I think.

[00:09:50] Ramit: You made an early retirement decision in a couple of days?

[00:09:54] Lashan: Yeah, that was it. Figuring out how to move forward in this really-- for me, it was a very difficult situation. I was so anxious. I was having panic attacks, and I reached out to start therapy because I literally was just crying and couldn't even think.

[00:10:17] Ramit: Yeah, I'm sorry you have had to go through that on top of the medical diagnosis. There is no logical reason to force tens of thousands of people into early retirement and without the appropriate amount of time to do your diligence. I'm on top of my numbers and even I could not have made a good decision within seven days.

[00:10:36] So to expect tons of federal employees to make a decision where you close the door forever, I think is very, very unfair. So, okay, you made the decision with the best information you could. Let's accept that decision. It's been made. And the retirement date, I believe, is in around three or four months. Is that correct?

[00:11:00] Lashan: September 30th. Yes.

[Narration]

[00:11:03] Ramit: Lashan said something a minute ago that was incredibly revealing. Did you catch it? She said she's a master of compartmentalization and that she's cried more over leaving her job than she has over a terminal cancer diagnosis. I think that's a really important clue. I can relate to part of this.

[00:11:22] Years ago, my business took a pretty big downturn, and we tried to fix it. It wasn't working. We tried more things. It still didn't work. I found myself waking up at night choking. I couldn't breathe. I went to the doctor. The doctor took a look, said, "Physiologically, you're fine. Are you under any stress?" And I just laughed. Am I under any-- of course, I'm under stress. I'm under enormous stress.

[00:11:47] But until that moment, I had compartmentalized stress from my body. I can handle stress. I'm Ramit Sethi. What I didn't realize is, just like anyone, we all have a level, and my level might be a little higher than others, but just like anyone, I have a level.

[00:12:05] That moment really shook me because I thought I knew myself by age 30, 35, etc. But that's not always true. I actually had a massive blind spot. And when you are compartmentalizing, any compartment can hold a certain amount of stress, but when it finally overflows, it can be really scary.

[00:12:24] I suspect that's what's happening with Lashan. She's facing the end of her life. But instead of asking, how do I want to spend the time I have left, she's laser focused on this question, will we have enough? Makes sense if you think about it. That question gives her control. It's something she can tweak and optimize. But the alternative, I'm sick, and time is running out, it's too big. It's too scary.

[00:12:52] What makes this even worse is she didn't get the time to think through this life-changing decision to retire. I recently posted a video about the colossal failure of DOGE, a predatory government-wide scam run by Elon and Trump, which failed miserably and affected you. So if you want to see what really happened, just search for Ramit DOGE. DOGE, of course, promised to find tons of waste, instead found essentially nothing, and now people like Lashan are left to deal with the fallout.

[00:13:22] My goal is to help Lashan zoom out beyond the spreadsheets and focus on what actually matters. But to do that, we need clarity. We need to understand exactly what's going on. And right after this, we're going to get into the numbers.

[Interview]

[00:13:36] Ramit: Let's talk a little bit about the household finances.

[00:13:42] Lashan: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:43] Ramit: In a word or two, how would you each describe your role with the family finances. Lashan?

[00:13:50] Lashan: The lead

[00:13:52] Ramit: The lead. Okay, great. And David?

[00:13:54] David: I would agree. She handles it.

[00:13:56] Ramit: What about you?

[00:13:58] David: I contribute. We talk about certain things, but as far as the monthly payments, she pretty much takes care of that.

[00:14:05] Ramit: All right.

[00:14:06] Lashan: I have a word for him.

[00:14:09] Ramit: Say that again.

[00:14:10] Lashan: I do have a word to describe him.

[00:14:12] Ramit: Please.

[00:14:12] Lashan: I watched one of your, man on the streets, the ignorant reassurer, and I sent him that one. He was like, "Oh, so you're saying I'm ignorant?" I'm like, "No, no, no. You're very intelligent, but you are the ignorant reassurer."

[00:14:26] Ramit: Okay, the ignorant reassurer, which is not meant to be insulting. I know that in American culture, the word ignorant is seen as an insult. But I don't mean it like that. A lot of people, and it almost always is men, when they are ignorant about money, they'll often do this thing where they reassure their girlfriend or wife. "Oh, it's going to be fine babe. It's fine. Stop worrying. It's going to be fine."

[00:14:51] Meanwhile, they don't even manage the money. Their wife is the one managing the money. I'm like, "How can you reassure her? You don't even know what the numbers are." That's the ignorant reassurer. David, are you the ignorant reassurer?

[00:15:01] David: To some extent, I guess you could say that, but I will say that she-- we really haven't had any financial issues thus far. I think we've been in a good position. It's just that this uncertainty, which has now been thrust upon us, is what's really driven us to this point.

[00:15:18] Ramit: Okay. All right. Lashan, are you managing the household finances on your own?

[00:15:25] Lashan: Yes.

[00:15:26] David: I'm not opposed to being more involved in it. I feel like she's been doing an adequate job with it. But I'm definitely here for support, to offer any additional help I can.

[00:15:38] Ramit: Okay. Lashan, have you ever asked David to be more involved?

[00:15:43] Lashan: Yes.

[00:15:44] Ramit: When was the first time that you asked David to be more involved with the finances?

[00:15:51] Lashan: Probably 15 years ago, at least that. It might have been before then. I don't know.

[00:15:57] Ramit: Exactly what I thought. David's over here like, "I'm not opposed to being more involved." I'm like, "She's been asking you for almost 20 freaking years." David care to comment.

[00:16:09] David: I have stepped in. I've taken over control of the finances. I think I missed a payment, she went crazy, and she took it back away from me.

[00:16:18] Ramit: What does went crazy mean? What does that mean?

[00:16:21] David: She was like, "Oh, you were late. You were late on the payment. I've got to take it back. I've got to take control again."

[00:16:28] Ramit: Was this a payment on a credit card?

[00:16:30] Lashan: No, it was a utility bill, and we got the red notice.

[00:16:34] Ramit: Oh, God. Yeah.

[00:16:35] Lashan: Just like, what in the world?

[00:16:39] Ramit: Exactly. If my wife missed a payment on a utility bill where it got to the red, I would be like, "What is happening here?" But second of all, more importantly, I wouldn't have my wife paying the utility bill. I would have the computer doing it because it's way more efficient than either of us are.

[00:16:55] Let's take a look at the numbers that we're working with here. Lashan, can you read the word in bold and then the number in full next to it for this entire box, please?

[00:17:07] Lashan: Assets, 586,952

[00:17:17] Ramit: Next.

[00:17:18] Lashan: Investments, 824,198.

[00:17:23] Ramit: Savings?

[00:17:25] Lashan: $30,377

[00:17:28] Ramit: Okay. And debt?

[00:17:30] Lashan: $227,457.

[00:17:34] Ramit: Total net worth.

[00:17:35] Lashan: 1.214 million.

[00:17:39] Ramit: Cool. What do you think of those numbers, both of you?

[00:17:43] David: Sounds good.

[00:17:45] Ramit: Okay. Lashan?

[00:17:47] Lashan: I was very excited to see that our [Inaudible] was in the positive, which I would assume it would be, but that it was that high. I was pretty stoked.

[00:17:58] Ramit: Did you have any idea?

[00:18:00] Lashan: I did not.

[00:18:01] Ramit: Hmm? What did you think if you would've had to guess before you did this?

[00:18:04] Lashan: I would've said maybe more of maybe 700,000, just because I know how much the house is worth.

[00:18:11] Ramit: Hmm. That's very interesting. So your house is, what, around 500, 600k basically?

[00:18:19] Lashan: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:20] Ramit: So you would've said 600k is the house, plus some change here and there equals 700.

[00:18:25] Lashan: Yeah. I probably would've said maybe 900, so I might've been a little bit close, but just that it's over a million, we gave each other a high five.

[00:18:34] Ramit: Oh, I love hearing this. Fantastic. Okay, great. And David, how about you? You said it sounds good. Anything else?

[00:18:40] David: Oh yeah. Again, because I wouldn't have expected that it was over a million dollars, just based on the house. I didn't realize that it would be that high. So we were both very excited.

[00:18:50] Ramit: Okay, good. Great. Let's continue on to the income. This time I'd like to hear from you, David. David, can you tell me what this number says here, this combined gross monthly income, please?

[00:19:05] David: $18,082.

[00:19:07] Ramit: Great. So combined, on an annual basis, the two of you make a total of $217,000. David, did you know that number?

[00:19:19] David: I knew it was above 200. I didn't know exactly. I know it was around that much.

[00:19:24] Ramit: Okay. Lashan?

[00:19:26] Lashan: Yeah, it sounds right. I think it should be a little bit higher, but that's in the range.

[00:19:31] Ramit: Okay, I'll take that as two yeses. Also fantastic. Okay. Why don't we take a look at the rest of the numbers? Let's go through it quickly. I'm going to read off some key numbers here. Your fixed costs, 50%, 5-0. That is on the lower end of what I typically recommend, 50 to 60%. So I don't see this number too often. And I mean that in a really positive way.

[00:19:56] This is really good. Let's take a look at investments-- are at zero. But I know that there's something else going on here because you have $824,000. So you've obviously been putting in pre-tax money for a long period of time and letting that compound, and maybe there's something else going on. We'll find out about that.

[00:20:15] Savings are at 6%. I also want note that you have six months of an emergency fund, $30,000 in savings. So you have a pretty decent emergency fund. And then finally, whoa, guilt-free spending. What's this number? 44% or $5,000 a month. Okay. Tell me about that. What are you spending money on?

[00:20:41] Lashan: I don't think that's right, but it might be right. I don't know where the money is going.

[00:20:48] Ramit: But to the thousand, what are you spending on?

[00:20:55] David: Eating out.

[00:20:56] Lashan: A lot of eating out.

[00:20:58] Ramit: Oh, eating out. All right. What else?

[00:21:01] Lashan: He might be spending it on shoes.

[00:21:04] Ramit: What else we got?

[00:21:05] Lashan: Vacations.

[00:21:07] Ramit: Okay, vacations. Why is everybody getting so quiet all of a sudden?

[00:21:10] Lashan: Because even when I filled it out, that number was like, where? What? Huh?

[00:21:18] Ramit: Okay. Why don't we put it all out on the table and then we can figure out what we want to do about it? So far we got eating out, shoes, vacations. What else?

[00:21:29] Lashan: The kids.

[00:21:31] Ramit: How many kids?

[00:21:33] Lashan: We have three.

[00:21:34] Ramit: And the ages again?

[00:21:36] Lashan: 23, 18, and 13.

[00:21:41] Ramit: How often do you eat out-- ballpark it-- per week?

[00:21:47] David: Per week?

[00:21:49] Lashan: I would say five times a week. Like your lunch, if I go out for lunch, and then our Friday. And I will say that our kitchen got destroyed from a water leak. And so we are eating out far more often because it is painful to both cook and clean in our disaster zone of the kitchen right now.

[00:22:15] Ramit: Do you want to do the exercise where I show you how much you actually eat out? Or do you want me to just tell you the real number?

[00:22:22] Lashan: I watch your show. I watch the podcast, so I know.

[00:22:26] Ramit: You know what the number actually is. You told me five. So what's the real number?

[00:22:31] Lashan: Probably 15.

[00:22:33] Ramit: 15, bingo. Lashan knows it. It's Ramit's rule of 3x, which is whatever they tell me for eating out, triple it, and we will get there. It is cosmically true. It is always true. We can go through the math if you want, or we can just accept it and skip it. What do you say?

[00:22:50] Lashan: I try to be very honest about the five, so maybe it's in the middle. It might not be 15, but maybe it's 10.

[00:22:59] Ramit: Okay. You want to put 10? I'll put 10. That's fine with me. 10 times a week. Fine. That's 40 times a month. I believe you, but where's the rest of the money going? $5,000 a month on guilt-free spending, where is it?

[00:23:12] Lashan: I don't know.

[00:23:13] Ramit: Where'd you go on holiday or holidays?

[00:23:17] Lashan: Last year we went on a cruise.

[00:23:20] Ramit: Mm-hmm. And how much did it cost total?

[00:23:24] Lashan: That cost about 5,500.

[00:23:28] Ramit: Did you count the taxi to the airport, parking, eating? Did you count all that?

[00:23:33] Lashan: Yes, that includes everything.

[00:23:35] Ramit: Damn, I like that answer. That is a confident answer. I believe you. Okay, 5,500 total for the entire trip. Taxes, tips, transportation, incidentals, all of it included, I believe you. 5,500. And was that the only holiday you took last year?

[00:23:51] Lashan: No.

[00:23:52] Ramit: Oh, what else?

[00:23:53] Lashan: Last year, in July, we took another cruise.

[00:23:56] Ramit: How much did that cost?

[00:23:57] Lashan: Maybe 8,000.

[00:24:00] Ramit: So 8,000 for that cruise. Okay, fine. And then any gifts over the course of the year for a family of five?

[00:24:06] Lashan: 2,000 is the gifts over the whole year for the whole family.

[00:24:10] Ramit: Okay. Just so you know, we're at 15,500 so far.

[00:24:15] Lashan: That was unusual. That was an unusual year.

[00:24:18] Ramit: It's never unusual.

[00:24:19] Lashan: We took the first cruise, and it was so terrible that I felt like I needed to do a better one.

[00:24:24] Ramit: What? What happened?

[00:24:26] Lashan: It was just the worst. It was the worst.

[00:24:29] Ramit: Really?

[00:24:29] David: Yeah.

[00:24:29] Lashan: Yes.

[00:24:30] Ramit: Did you go on a different cruise line?

[00:24:32] David: Yeah.

[00:24:32] Lashan: Yes.

[00:24:32] Ramit: Uh-oh, that was better. Okay. And what about other recreation?

[00:24:36] David: Movies.

[00:24:36] Lashan: Movies.

[00:24:36] Ramit: Oh. How often?

[00:24:39] Lashan: During the summer, maybe once or twice a week. I try to go when they're about $6.

[00:24:46] Ramit: Oh, that's very reasonable. So you spend money on movies. What else? Is there any other major expense that you're spending on for the family from a discretionary perspective?

[00:24:56] Lashan: He goes to the gym, so he plays for gym membership.

[00:25:01] Ramit: No. I'm trying to understand where's the $5,000 a month or $60,000 a year go.

[00:25:08] Lashan: I think I'm just paying extra on different bills. I don't think it's just completely discretionary over there. If I have extra money, I'm paying more on our debt.

[Narration]

[00:25:23] Ramit: Hold on. The woman who knows the exact amount of her cruise down to the taxis, tips, and drinks doesn't know where $5,000 a month is going? I don't buy it. Lashan is meticulous. She's been leading the family finances for decades. She pays the bills, tracks every payment, tries to get ahead.

[00:25:42] So when I see a line item in their CSP that says $5,000 a month, 44% of their income on guilt-free spending, I expect a clear answer. Instead, I just got shrugs. And this is another clue. Because while I want to get beyond the numbers with Lashan, it's hard to do that if $60,000 a year is just evaporating. She did mention that she occasionally puts extra money towards debt. I'm curious what those debt payments are for. We are going to break down their debt and find out right after this.

[Interview]

[00:26:16] Ramit: What is your debts? You have a mortgage, right?

[00:26:19] Lashan: Yes, we have a HELOC that we use to pay for two vehicles. And we have one credit card that has a balance.

[00:26:31] Ramit: Hmm? Hold on. If you could see inside my head, there's like a wheel that's starting to spin right now. It's getting a lot faster. How much is the balance of the credit card debt?

[00:26:41] Lashan: I paid 2,000 in the last month, so it's down to 6,700.

[00:26:47] Ramit: 6,700. Okay. And the HELOC?

[00:26:50] Lashan: The HELOC is 24,900.

[00:26:53] Ramit: Let's call it 25,000. Looking at your car payments, you have $278 a month, but that's because you're putting it towards the HELOC. Is that why?

[00:27:06] Lashan: No, the 278 is just like the gas and everything. And I think we have the HELOC in there. It's like $866 a month. I think we put that in there.

[00:27:17] Ramit: I'll show you. You have debt payments of 950 a month.

[00:27:22] Lashan: Yeah, that's it. That's the HELOC. And the one credit card with the balance.

[00:27:26] Ramit: Oh. Okay. So you have about, let's just call it 32,000 in debt. What's the credit card debt for?

[00:27:36] Lashan: Earlier this year we got our kitchen countertops and our floor upgraded before the leak. So I put that on a 0% credit card, like I will pay it off. And again, I wasn't anticipating retiring, and I was like, "Oh, I have 18 months at 0%. I'm going to pay it off before the 0% goes away."

[00:28:00] Ramit: When does the 0% end?

[00:28:02] Lashan: July of 2026.

[00:28:06] Ramit: So you got another year or so.

[00:28:07] Lashan: Yes.

[00:28:09] Ramit: I am puzzled by some things, which we need to figure out, the spending. This is a lot of money we're talking about, and it will become increasingly important to be dialed in. But we can figure it out. Lashan, when you think about what to change in your finances as a result of early retirement, what are the first things that come to mind for you?

[00:28:36] Lashan: First things are getting the debt paid down so that we have more breathing room, especially the HELOC, which is a big chunk. So that is really my focus. Also, my retirement that we have in the government, which is called the TSP, once you retire you can't put any more money in.

[00:28:56] So do I just leave it there? Of course, obviously if I'm not contributing anything, I am more sensitive to losses that may happen with the market as we've seen already so far this year. And do we have any money for me to keep contributing? Does it make sense? So it's just a lot of stuff of like, how do we make sure that however many years that I have, that we are in a good position and then even when I'm gone, that he's in a good position?

[00:29:28] Ramit: Yeah. Okay, I hear you loud and clear. You want to make sure that your family is taken care of. I respect that. We'll make sure that happens. In addition, part of living a  Rich Life is making sure, especially if there is a ticking clock, that you are aware of, that we really spend some time talking about you.

[00:29:48] And I think sometimes people who are experts in doing things for other people, their own skills of deciding what is important to them deteriorate. This income that you are currently making, which is 18,000 a month or 217,000 a year, is this reflective of how much you're going to make as a household after September?

[00:30:18] Lashan: No.

[00:30:19] Ramit: What is that number going to be after September?

[00:30:23] Lashan: That number is going to be, for me, and I don't know what it is after taxes, but it'll be closer to 6,700 a month before taxes.

[00:30:38] Ramit: 6,700 gross. Right now you're making 9,500 a month.

[00:30:42] Lashan: Right? Mm-hmm.

[00:30:43] Ramit: Let's look it up. Okay. So instead of making 18,000 a month, you're going to make 15,000 a month. Off the surface, it doesn't sound like that big of a deal. What do you think?

[00:30:54] Lashan: I'm feeling like it's not going to be that bad, but I had to apply for Social Security Disability. And because of my terminal diagnosis, they approved that very quickly. So then that was added into the mix. So it was like, oh, okay, I have a little bit more. Because the actual retirement payment is 2,192.

[00:31:19] Ramit: Wow. That would be a big drop.

[00:31:21] Lashan: Yeah, that's the pension. Right. So that's the pension. And so I was like, "Oh my God." And then the Social Security came in and they're like, "Okay, in December, we'll start paying you $3,180." And I was like, "Okay." It's definitely less, but I do feel a little bit better.

[00:31:42] Ramit: Let me make sure I understand. So you have a pension, which will be part of your income. You have Social Security and disability.

[00:31:53] Lashan: I have Social Security Disability, and then I have a payment that goes for my daughter because I'm on disability. So that's the other number in the mix.

[00:32:03] Ramit: That's included in the income as well.

[00:32:05] Lashan: Yeah.

[00:32:05] Ramit: Okay. Anything else?

[00:32:07] Lashan: No.

[00:32:08] Ramit: And then we have David's income as well.

[00:32:10] Lashan: Right. And his will stay the same or maybe go up.

[00:32:13] Ramit: Got it. At 8,500 a month. Right, David? Okay. David, what do you do for a living?

[00:32:18] David: I'm a contracting officer.

[00:32:20] Ramit: Okay, great. And when Lashan just mentioned it might go up, is that because of pay raises, promotion, that kind of thing?

[00:32:26] David: Yeah, annual pay raises. Hopefully there's a promotion in there somewhere.

[00:32:30] Ramit: Okay. You work for the federal government as well?

[00:32:32] David: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:32] Ramit: Okay. Okay, got it. Good. This is good to know. So David, do you have a pension as well?  

[00:32:40] David: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:41] Ramit: Do you know your numbers with the pension?

[00:32:44] David: I believe it was 400, 400-something.

[00:32:48] Lashan: Well, that's the retirement. So the pension is based on how many years you work.

[00:32:54] Ramit: Mm-hmm. David, do you have a sense of when you would retire?

[00:32:59] David: I was thinking maybe 10 years from now. I think that retirement age, they were trying to increase it. So I plan on just working until I'm probably not able to, or I feel like it's just time for me to leave.

[00:33:13] Ramit: Okay. This is really helpful to understand. Really helpful. Lashan, just off the bat without further investigation, your decrease in pay is not as dramatic as I had assumed. That's a good thing. Combined with the fact that David is going to keep his salary and potentially-- we never count on it, but potentially have some upward growth, that's great.

[00:33:41] In order to be able to give more specific feedback, I'd like to understand a little bit about how you both grew up with money. Lashan, I'd love to go back to your childhood. I'm talking when you were young. What do you remember your family saying about money? What words did they use?

[00:34:03] Lashan: Honestly, I don't remember them really saying anything. My mom had me when she was 17, so she was pretty young. She would just work and try to pay the bills. And as I was a teenager, we were a lot more financially insecure. We would have eviction notices or the electricity might be off for a little bit.

[00:34:29] We would move and find someone else that would be willing to take a chance, and we might stay there for a little bit. So we had a lot of moving around and just being unsure if somebody's going to knock on the door and put the eviction notice.

[00:34:44] The biggest thing that I remember was like when I was in 12th grade, I had American-lit teacher, and he was like, "Get a credit card, buy a little bit each month that you can pay off, and then pay it off." And that's how you build good credit. And I just remember I was like, "Okay, when I go away to college and I get my first credit card, I'm going to buy a little bit that I can afford, and I'm going to pay it off, and I'm going to build up my credit."

[00:35:12] Ramit: Okay. It's quite a remarkable journey you've gone on to go from constant eviction notices to having $824,000 in your investment account. What do you make of that?

[00:35:24] Lashan: That was part of the reason why I was high fiving him. Because I was just like, "Oh my gosh, look at where I am compared to where I was before." And I think that's why I had my hand on the finances. I think it gives me a sense of security and safety because I know when I pay my credit card and it goes down to zero, I am so happy.

[00:35:51] And I know it's supposed to be automated, but I'm like, "Oh, let me pay my Citi card." Because when you pay Citi, it immediately adjusts your balance. And the feeling that I get when it goes down to zero, I'm just like, "Ah, I had the money to pay my bill."

[00:36:06] Ramit: I call it being irrationally happy. I love hearing people's stories about it. I love it. You paying your credit card bill. I don't get the same joy because I didn't grow up the same way you did. But when I buy an appetizer at a restaurant, I feel irrationally happy because I couldn't do that when I was a kid. Too expensive.

[00:36:25] So like 10 bucks, 15 bucks for an appetizer, big deal. But it actually is a big deal to me. And now I can understand why paying that credit card off click is a big deal to you. Okay. I appreciate that.

[00:36:41] David, I'd like to learn a little bit about when you were growing up, what do you remember your family saying about money?

[00:36:48] David: I had a relatively modest upbringing. We weren't poor to the point we were living on the street or anything, but we never really took a lot of vacations. I got Christmas and maybe something on my birthday. But that's what I grew up with. That's what I knew. I didn't always get the shoes that I wanted when I was young. But I had clothes. I had a roof. I had food.

[00:37:09] My dad, he told me a story about how he was able to go into a store and buy a TV with no money because he had their credit. And so he always emphasized the importance of maintaining good credit, paying your bills off on time. So that's the lesson that stuck with me.

[00:37:27] Ramit: How do you think your upbringing with money shows up in your relationship with money today?

[00:37:33] David: Because I was not able to buy the things that I wanted when I was younger and I didn't have money, now that I have money that I can spend--

[00:37:41] Ramit: An example would be the shoes that Lashan mentioned?

[00:37:44] David: Yeah, yeah. I like Nike's and Jordan, which they re-release, and I'm like, "Oh, I didn't have this one when I was young when I wanted it, but now I can get it."

[00:37:53] Ramit: How many shoes do you have?

[00:37:56] David: I have had the same shoe size since I was 13.

[00:38:00] Ramit: Okay. Interesting answer.

[00:38:03] David: I keep them in good condition, so I probably have, I would say maybe 150 or more.

[00:38:10] Ramit: What?

[00:38:11] Lashan: More.

[00:38:12] David: Yeah. But there are shoes that I have that are 10, 15 years old. So it's not like they're just all new shoes. They're shoes that I buy and maintain them. I keeping in good condition.

[00:38:21] Ramit: Lashan, how much is the number? Not 150. How many?

[00:38:24] Lashan: I would say maybe 200, maybe 250.

[00:38:29] David: No, not even close 250.

[00:38:31] Ramit: What are you going to do with them one day?

[00:38:34] David: I wear all of them.

[00:38:35] Ramit: Oh, okay. You wear 150 pairs of shoes?

[00:38:37] David: I don't wear them one after the other, but I'll wear them all at some point.

[00:38:44] Ramit: All right. Okay, hold on. I'm so distracted. I did not expect that answer. I knew I was going to have a juicy answer when I was like, "How many shoes do you have? And "then your first answer was, "My shoe size hasn't changed in 20 years." I said, "What the [Bleep]? I don't know what's happening right now, but something good is about to happen." And indeed it did.

[Narration]

[00:39:06] Ramit: Okay, suddenly a lot of this makes sense. To understand how they handle their money today, you have to look at where they came from. Lashan grew up with eviction notices, the power getting shut off, never knowing how long they would stay in one place. So naturally she took control of the money. That control gave her safety. She doesn't have to depend on anyone else because she can handle things herself.

[00:39:31] David grew up with stability, but not much extra, just the basics. Now that he can afford more, he buys what he couldn't have as a kid. And that shows up in his closet and in the way that he delegates the money to Lashan.

[00:39:44] Now, I will add one fascinating thing that I've learned on this podcast. People can grow up, for example, in extreme scarcity, but some of them will go on to develop a very tight sense of control over money. Others will simply sit back and say, "Hey, whatever. It was bad back then. I'm still here. It's totally fine. Who cares? I've been poor before. I can be poor again."

[00:40:06] The thing is, you cannot predict how people will react. They can grow up in the same household, same amount of financial abundance or scarcity, and they can react in ways that make sense, but you cannot predict what they will be. So knowing their background explains how they got here.

[00:40:23] She's been managing everything. He's been watching from the sidelines. What's interesting to me is that Lashan asked David to help maybe 15, 20 years ago once. And when it didn't stick, she just never asked again. Even in her application to speak to me, she didn't say she wanted David more involved. She was just worried he wouldn't know what to do when she's gone.

[00:40:40] The real issue though is that she doesn't want to carry this alone anymore. She just hasn't expressed it that directly out loud. So I don't think this is just about money anymore. It's about the two of them finally acting like a team. Let me see if I can help them get there.

[Interview]

[00:40:57] Ramit: I want to talk about your roles with money in the relationship. Lashan, you mentioned that you have been the one managing money pretty much since day one. Can you talk to me about what that looks like day to day, year to year?

[00:41:17] Lashan: I think it looks like me constantly thinking about where we are, how to pay down debt. If we buy something, I'm very like, "How can I get this paid off as quickly as possible?" If we make a big purchase, I'm like, "Okay, we have to pay this off." The house, we refied in COVID because I was like, "Oh my gosh, the rates are great. We're going to refi. We're going to change it from a 30 to a 15."

[00:41:52] And I'm looking at how much interest it is and if it changes a 10th of a percent, what does that mean? I've read your book and you're like, "Automate it." I did automate it, but if I have money, I will pay it before the money comes out automatically. I don't want to wait. I made sure our student loans were paid off. We got solar panels that was supposed to be like a 10 or 15, 20-year. It was paid off in two and a half years. I'm always thinking like, how can we do this better? How can we pay this off faster?

[00:42:29] Ramit: Do you like that?

[00:42:32] Lashan: I like it, but I feel like calms me down. If I'm thinking about it, if I have a plan, if I'm doing things to execute it, I feel like I am actively managing it.

[00:42:49] Ramit: Yeah. So it's like the road runner. You're running. You're moving. There's movement. You're clicking something. You're making a plan, 2.75%, all that stuff.

[00:43:01] Lashan: Right.

[00:43:02] Ramit: I think that you seem very accomplished with money. You know your numbers. You made a life-changing decision under duress, under a very tight timeframe. You've received news about your own health, which is, at best, difficult to hear.

[00:43:26] The seriousness of this situation doesn't escape me. The good news is that you make a lot of money, and even with early retirement, it's not going to dramatically change your income picture. That part is great. But we have a serious health diagnosis. That can't be overstated. We all know that. I don't need to belabor the point.

[00:43:52] But one thing that I see is a vast imbalance in engagement with the finances. If you were 25, I would say, "Let's do this and let's do that and have this nice conversation." But we're talking about a number of years, a short number of years where this becomes extremely salient.

[00:44:17] And Lashan, you said one of the things you want is to make sure that your family is protected. Lashan, if you were not here tomorrow, it would be very chaotic with the family finances. Just from the way that I'm hearing the discussion. David, I believe you could pay the bills. I don't doubt that. You're a smart guy. You could figure that part out. Fine.

[00:44:38] But there's a level of engagement and understanding that it would be like me trying to accumulate 100 pairs of cool shoes. I don't even know what Nike, Jordan's-- where do I start? I have no idea. I haven't had the 25 years of experience that you have had. That's the same thing that's going to happen with money very soon. Am I reading this wrong or right?

[00:45:02] I see this as a pretty serious situation, not because you're running out of money. That's not the case. But because you haven't really engaged with money as a team in 20 years. And now we see the end game, and we need to change the dynamic quickly. But that's my read. Am I reading this right or wrong?

[00:45:28] David: No, I would agree with you, definitely. We're going to have to become more engaged with it. I need to be more engaged with it. We're going to have to sit down and go through it. I think up to this point it's just been like, just going in, paying the bills. Okay, I see this is what it is.

[00:45:45] I think she does a lot of additional optimizing, and that's maybe the part that I don't see. But yeah, definitely, we will be sitting down and going through it just so that she doesn't feel like she's just all by herself and that she feels that I can be capable of taking over if need be.

[00:46:02] Ramit: Lashan, how's my read of this situation?

[00:46:05] Lashan: I think that it's pretty accurate. Yes, we have some bills that are paid through the account, but there's some bills that I paid that are on the website, like our mortgage. It doesn't come out of our checking account. I don't even know if he knows what our mortgage company name is. So he would be like, "Oh, wait a minute. Where do I pay the mortgage?" Because the bill is electronic and he wouldn't even see it to know how to get to it.

[00:46:30] Ramit: How come you haven't asked about this in today's conversation, Lashan?

[00:46:35] Lashan: About?

[00:46:38] Ramit: How do I get David to get involved?

[00:46:41] Lashan: I don't know. I think part of it is it's just like a thing that doesn't change. I would like it to change, but I don't even know if I think about it as like a thing that can change because it's been so long of being the same way. It doesn't feel like a thing that is even an option.

[00:47:00] Ramit: I think when something goes on repeatedly for years and years, almost decades, you just start to think like that's the way it is. It can't change. And Lashan, if I can make a suggestion, I don't think you came to me because I could calculate how much less $2,000 a month is going to affect your bottom line. Anybody can do that.

[00:47:23] I think you came to me because deep down you want help in getting David engaged with the money. You know there's a clock ticking, and you know that you leaving David and the kids behind without David being engaged is a major problem.

[00:47:41] Lashan: I would send him your clips, trying to bring him into the financial picture, and not just being like a person on the sidelines. I don't know how long it'll be-- our youngest is only 13, so he's got to make sure all of the stuff-- I make sure that the kids' FAFSA is done.

[00:48:04] I make sure that their financial aid, the boxes are checked and that they're doing all their college applications. So I'm always very much managing all of these little pieces of the family that are-- it may seem invisible because they end up in college, and he's like, "Okay, we're driving down to the college and we're doing their room." But it was all of this work beforehand.

[00:48:32] Ramit: Lashan, what do you say we make the invisible visible today?

[00:48:38] Lashan: Okay.

[00:48:40] Ramit: You did the work. You sent David a bunch of clips. You did the work of applying, of getting both of you here, and I'm so glad you are. We're all here. Lashan, I think sometimes we just have to be able to ask for help. I find it difficult myself. I actually suspect David wants to help as well. David?

[00:49:02] David: Of course.

[00:49:03] Ramit: Exactly. So sometimes we just have to actually be clear. Here are the stakes. I'm going to die. It is going to happen. And I want our family to be taken care of, and that cannot happen from me doing it all. We've got to do it as a team. That's where we are. Lashan, I'm sorry to be so direct. The word pragmatic is the word that you used, and I agree. Sometimes we just have to talk about these things. It is going to happen. We have to talk about it and confront it.

[00:49:39] Here's what I would like to do. I like to do a little experiment with the two of you. So I asked you earlier in our conversation, what is each of your role? Lashan, you described it as a leader. David, I don't think we got quite a direct answer, but let's say teammate, with Lashan being the leader.

[00:50:00] I'd like to actually flip that dynamic for just a second. I would like us to live in this new fantasy world for five minutes, where David is the leader with all the family finances, and Lashan is the teammate.

[00:50:16] David: I don't think I'm incapable, but there's been times where we tried before and for whatever reason it didn't work because she wasn't satisfied with it. Again, I say she's just more aggressive as far as pursuing savings, pursuing lower interest rates. I think if I know where everything is, I don't think I would have a problem with it.

[00:50:35] Ramit: Mm-hmm.

[00:50:37] David: Oftentimes she may pay bills that I don't know about. She may ask for my involvement, but then she would just do it on her own time, unbeknownst to me.

[00:50:46] Ramit: Do you think she overcomplicates money sometimes?

[00:50:49] David: I wouldn't say she overcomplicates it. I think it's good to look for savings, to look for lower interest rates. I think she does all the things that someone would do, so I wouldn't say she overcomplicates it.

[00:51:03] Lashan: It would be so nice to have him do all of that thinking every day instead of me doing that thinking every day.

[00:51:13] Ramit: Well, we can make that happen. Watch.

[00:51:14] David: We can make that happen.

[00:51:16] Ramit: Yeah, exactly. I was just going to ask. David beat me to it. I was going to say, "David, would you be willing to do it?" He beat me to it. He said, "Yes, let's make it happen."

[00:51:22] David: Yeah. Just to prove her wrong. Yeah.

[00:51:24] Ramit: Okay. I don't mind vengeance as a strategy for a successful relationship. I love it myself. He goes, "Just to get her, I'm going to show her I could take it off your plate." Works for me. Whatever it takes, I'll take it. Lashan, all jokes aside, you're hearing this, right? David is saying, "I'm willing to step up and take some of that load off." Are you hearing it?

[00:51:47] Lashan: I am.

[00:51:48] Ramit: Okay. And I asked him a question. Does David think that Lashan over complicates money? He didn't say yes. I'm not sure what the answer is myself, but I do think people who like to be in control find it very, very difficult to give up control.

[00:52:07] Lashan:  Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

[00:52:08] Ramit: Speaking as someone who likes control.

[00:52:11] Lashan: I was definitely thinking like, I would love for him to do that, maybe.

[00:52:18] Ramit: Yeah. But can I ask a question? What if he accomplished the Rich Life vision that the two of you come up with but he did it a little different? What if he had the bill automated, or what if he paid it off one day later or earlier than you would? Would that be okay?

[00:52:38] Lashan: I would definitely have to manage my own feelings about it. Just being honest. Because I'm so used to managing everything, I just want to know that everything is done, that everybody is where they need to be. I don't want anything to fall through the cracks. And so I feel like I'm taking care of everything. Everything is going to be done.

[00:53:05] Ramit: How much project management work do you do at work?

[00:53:08] Lashan: When I was working, that was pretty much my job.

[00:53:12] Ramit: Okay. Yeah, I know. I know it was. I can tell. I love a good project manager. I also think that if you take that worldview-- I don't have my glasses here. Let's assume I just put on my glasses and I'm currently a project manager. That's the way that I look at the world. What's the status check in? What's the update? That's the project manager worldview.

[00:53:37] That actually works very well to make sure that the trains are running on time, etc. But let's take those lenses off, and let's come into this relationship, not as a project manager, which you have done for 20 years. What would be a different description? Who are you now that you've taken those project manager lenses off?

[00:54:00] Lashan: A wife.

[00:54:01] Ramit: Nice.

[00:54:02] Lashan: And a mom.

[00:54:02] Ramit: Yes. What else?

[00:54:05] Lashan: A good friend.

[00:54:07] Ramit: Love it. Keep going.

[00:54:10] Lashan: A person who loves to travel with my family.

[00:54:15] Ramit: Yes. I'm so glad you got there. I wanted to hear not only a wife, a mom, but also somebody who has worked really hard and somebody who has earned the right to be able to enjoy some things in life. Right now, the worldview, the project manager lenses that you have put on are actually preventing you from doing that. They're mutually exclusive roles. I notice you're tearing up right now. Tell me why

[00:54:57] Lashan: I think because the things I'm doing, I feel like, oh, I'm taking good care of my family, but then maybe I'm not taking care of me. That's not that person who has the role in my family.

[00:55:15] Ramit: That's so evident. It's so evident. I've had to pull it out of you today as to what do you enjoy doing for yourself. And the thing is, you actually have a partner here who wants you to enjoy yourself. From the first minute of this conversation, I asked David, "What did you think about Lashan retiring early?" He said, "I supported her decision."

[00:55:36] Do you know how rare it is for me to talk to a couple where the two of them are so obviously supporters of each other? You have that here. I feel like, Lashan, you could say, "I want to go kayaking. I want to take a trip here or there." And David would be like, "Cool."

[00:55:51] David: Yeah, I'm down kayaking.

[00:55:51] Ramit: Yeah. But Lashan, it requires you to do a couple of things. Number one, it requires you to take off those lenses and actually hand them in part to David. It requires you, when you hand it over, to tell him what you want. And I wish that that were not the case because handing over those responsibilities and telling your expectations, that in and of itself is emotional labor itself.

[00:56:25] I wish David would just be like, "Okay, I'm going to follow you around for one week, analyze what you're doing, and then I'm going to come to you with a proposal of what I can take off your plate. I would love for that to be the case, but it never happens. So sometimes when you entrench yourself in a position of the project manager, of the family CEO, in order to change that, unfortunately you have to be the one to do it.

[00:56:45] But Lashan, you can do it. I have no doubt. Probably David is not going to be perfect at it for the first few times. Nobody would. And the thing is, what I hear is a willingness from David to step up to it. And I hear, Lashan, you're on the fence about maybe handling over some response. But I think you can. I think you can.

[00:57:04] And then the second thing is to say, "What is my vision for this family, with this family for my remaining time?" Surely your vision has got to be bigger and more powerful than paying bills. What do you think?

[00:57:23] Lashan: I don't think I thought of it like that because I think my sense of creating a safe environment is very much wrapped up in making sure bills are paid. Because I didn't have that when I was younger. So that was like a way of me also caring for my family, even when I would get tired of doing it. So it's very, am I still taking care of my family if I'm not doing it?

[00:57:52] Ramit: If I had to ask you, in your  Rich Life today and for the next five years, what would you want to do to have an incredibly meaningful five years, what would you tell me?

[00:58:04] Lashan: Spend as much time together as a family. So like traveling, taking care of my health, exercising, doing water aerobics. Having time to think of new things to cook and try new recipes because I feel like I was always running, meeting friends for lunch.

[00:58:30] Ramit: Okay.

[00:58:30] Lashan: Those would be things that I would like to do.

[00:58:32] Ramit: How are you feeling as you say this out loud?

[00:58:35] Lashan: That would be an amazing way to spend my days.

[00:58:40] Ramit: David, how are you feeling as you hear this?

[00:58:43] David: I want her to enjoy life. I like taking trips. I like going out on dates. So all that sounds good to me.

[00:58:49] Ramit: Okay. I'm feeling incredibly excited because what you told me was very specific, very personal to you, and meaningful because it involves both you, Lashan, and your family. And also very achievable. If anything, I would push you to even dream bigger. In fact, you deserve it. David, you're hearing this. What role do you think you can play in supporting Lashan living a very  Rich Life?

[00:59:26] David: Yeah, taking some of that strain off of her just so she can spend more time focusing on herself.

[00:59:31] Ramit: Yes. Tell me how you would do that. I love it.

[00:59:34] David: I would definitely become more active, take a few things on, and gradually pick up the load, encourage her to go out with her friends. We like to take vacations. I'm always asking for a date night. I'm totally open to her doing whatever makes her happy.

[00:59:51] Ramit: Okay. Can I just hone in on that? I'm asking for a date night. What does that look like when you ask for a date night?

[01:00:02] David: It is pretty much just setting aside a time. We like to try new restaurants, and so we look for places to go. I pick out places I think will be nice. We just have to find a date. Sometimes, I work five days a week, so it's just finding that time and maybe making a priority to set it aside.

[01:00:19] Ramit: Cool. Everything you said is great. I love the idea of taking things progressively off of her plate when it comes to money. David, I think actually, there's so many benefits of this. Number one, I think that as Lashan admits, she likes that sense of control. And in a way, David, I don't think you have that same sense of control with money. I think you read I Will Teach You to Be Rich.

[01:00:46] You ask her what needs to be done and then automate 90% of that stuff. Let the computer do it. It's still getting done, but it's getting done in a way that is efficient, that you don't have the emotional need to click things every week, every month. You're just like, I want this automated. I want it to be done, and it will be done.

[01:01:04] But you are the one who made that happen, and you would be the one who's communicating to Lashan because the minute you take even the smallest thing off of her plate, we all know, Lashan, what your reaction's going to be. Right? A little bit of panic. Did you do it this way? Did you do it right? What happened? What's the update? What about this? What about that? We all know that. Let's just expect it. We can even make a joke about it.

[01:01:30] Lashan: Yeah.

[01:01:32] Ramit: And therefore, David, if you know that and you expect it, then it doesn't have to be this existential dark thing. It's just, "Listen, Lashan. I know it's going to make you feel a little nervous. Here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to put a whiteboard on the fridge, and I'm going to let you know the status every Monday, or email or Google Doc or whatever you want."

[01:01:53] Over communicating to her just like you would at work. And that's going to relieve those project management needs for updates. And over time you build that trust where Lashan's going, "Oh my God. Not only is David incredibly capable," which I think you are. But also Lashan, you're actually now focused over here. What is my  Rich Life? What is our  Rich Life? That's a very powerful place to be. What do you think? David?

[01:02:22] David: I think that sounds good.

[01:02:24] Ramit: Lashan?

[01:02:28] Lashan: I love that. Especially like with the date nights, he's definitely asked about it and that it always feels like we let it fall by the wayside. We don't really prioritize it ourselves.

[01:02:39] Ramit: What?

[01:02:39] Lashan: As a couple.

[01:02:42] Ramit: How often you do you actually go on date nights.

[01:02:44] Lashan: Valentine's Day and our anniversary typically.

[01:02:49] Ramit: What the [Bleep]? Hey, David, the way you talked about it, it's like, oh yeah, it's not a matter of finding time. I'll do it every other-- it sounded like it was every other week. Now it's twice a year?

[01:02:58] David: I suggested to her once a quarter. I said, "I think we go out once a quarter, Valentine's Day, second quarter anniversary, third quarter, and then sometime in the fourth  quarter."

[01:03:07] Ramit: And you guys didn't even hit that?

[01:03:09] Lashan: No.

[01:03:09] Ramit: Why? It's not time.

[01:03:12] Lashan: When the kids were a little bit younger, it's like, oh, now you have to leave them alone. Or we have to figure out food for them while we go out. But now they're a little bit older, so maybe it'll be easier to prioritize time as a couple.

[01:03:30] Ramit: I'm shocked right now. Do you know why?

[01:03:36] Lashan: Yeah.

[01:03:37] Ramit: If we just assume five more years, Lashan, I hope it's a lot more. I really do. But let's just assume.

[01:03:45] Lashan: Mm-hmm.

[01:03:46] Ramit: That's 20 date nights left.

[01:03:51] Lashan: Mm-hmm.

[01:03:52] Ramit: And that's if you hit every single one, which you haven't been for years. You two love each other. This is not every couple. You two clearly love each other. To not be able to find a quarterly date night-- we've all had somebody in our lives that has passed away, or somebody that became sick and could not do the things they used to be able to do. The last thing I want is to run out of time, especially if I have the money to be able to do it. Do you think that you have the money to be able to do some of these things

[01:04:30] Lashan: Yes.

[01:04:31] Ramit: Unquestionably, yes. If anything, you're spending $5,000 a month. You don't even know where it's going. So if you decided you wanted to hire a babysitter or have somebody freaking plan the dinners for you, easy. The time is finite. The time together, all of you, it's finite for all of us. The load has not been shared.

[01:05:00] I suspect that's going to be resolved with some work and some time. That's not a problem. But the real question, the real question, Lashan, is what is your  Rich Life for you and for the family?

[01:05:18] Lashan: I think we communicate about regular stuff, but not necessarily important stuff in a substantive way all the time. I can be very conflict avoidant. And even if it's not necessarily conflict, I have very negative feelings if it's not something that's either neutral or good.

[01:05:41] Ramit: Ah.

[01:05:42] Lashan: So I just think there are a lot of stuff that we let lie under the surface and don't really have those conversations that are, I think important.

[Narration]

[01:05:54] Ramit: There's a famous essay about keeping your identity small. The idea is that once you define yourself a certain way, you start to build your entire worldview around it, even if that identity no longer serves you. So the lesson is, keep your identity small. Be careful what you define yourself as, because once you define yourself that way, it's really hard to change.

[01:06:17] Lashan built her identity as the financial leader. She was the frugal one, the planner, the bill payer, and that actually got her to a pretty good place. She went from eviction notices as a kid to building a million-dollar net worth, but that identity is so entrenched that she can't imagine letting it go, even when it is literally costing her the rarest thing in the world, which is time

[01:06:43] I have to say I'm really impressed with David. At the beginning of the conversation, he let Lashan lead. He leaned back metaphorically and physically, but as soon as the ball was tossed to him, he caught it. He's not tossing it back. It's actually so rare to see this dynamic on this podcast that I want to take a second to acknowledge it.

[01:07:01] My hope is that this next chapter moves beyond paying bills and into something much more deep and meaningful, building a life they both love together. But that means letting go of old roles, and that's hard. If you can relate to this, if you are struggling with your own money mindset, I built a free mini course for you. You can download it at iwt.com/mindsetpod. It's free. I would highly recommend it. iwt.com/mindsetpod. Now listen as I gently challenged Lashan to rethink what her role could be.

[Interview]

[01:07:39] Ramit: Can I ask a couple of questions that might generate a little bit of discomfort?

[01:07:44] Lashan: Mm-hmm.

[01:07:46] Ramit: Okay. I'm going to ask him. You can feel free to just say, "Hey, that one's not for me." Feel free. Lashan, in the course of our conversation, you have mentioned panic attacks, therapy. Do you think that your emotional needs with money are being met right now?

[01:08:07] Lashan: I don't think I've ever thought about money as emotion. Although recently I have come to realize my control issue around it. Because it creates a feeling of safety for me.

[01:08:21] Ramit: Can you go like this with your hands? Take those glasses off right now. Take those project manager glasses off. Put them aside. Yeah. Who are you now?

[01:08:29] Lashan: I think I am someone who has a lot of things to figure out and a lot of work to improve my connection and communication with David. That it could be a lot better and that I probably let a lot of the other things take up the space instead of having really important, consequential conversations.

[01:08:57] Ramit: Great. Totally agree. Is this hard to talk about?

[01:09:02] Lashan: It's a little bit challenging.

[01:09:04] Ramit: Yeah. It would very much be like if somebody said, "Hey, put the business stuff aside. Who are you?" It's like, hmm, that feels really weird. I don't know. Something. You're asking me to ask, without my arm, who am I? I don't know. It's hard. Let's keep going though, because I think we are talking about something important. Can we focus on something really positive? You took those lenses off. Who are you? Tell me the positive part.

[01:09:29] Lashan: I am generous, and I am loving. I think I'm a nurturer. And I hope I'm a good wife and a good mother.

[01:09:50] Ramit: Mm-hmm. If I had the opportunity to talk to your kids, what would they tell me?

[01:09:56] Lashan: I think they know that I love them. Sometimes they would say that I'm mean and maybe a little pushy. But I think they know that I want the best for them.

[01:10:08] Ramit: Yeah. Are you there for them?

[01:10:12] Lashan: Yes.

[01:10:13] Ramit: Yeah. This is why I wanted to talk to you. It's not about what's on your spreadsheet. You have enough money. It's not about that. The reason I want to talk to you, and the reason I'm so appreciative that I've gotten the chance to talk to both of you is that you've accomplished something amazing. You have a long marriage, seems like a very happy marriage.

[01:10:52] You have kids. You raise these kids. And you have a clock. And I've talked before about how sometimes people play small, in particular women. We talk about what role do they have? They say, "I do the day-to-day. I pay the bills." And it really drives me crazy. It's playing small.

[01:11:16] There's no reason to pay the bills. We can automate that. I don't want anyone to play small, but especially women where I see a recurring pattern. Lashan, I see the opportunity for you to play big. Big does not have to mean fancy, luxury. It's not that. It can be the lunches with your friends. It can be the date nights, which are guaranteed every week or every two weeks.

[01:11:43] But it's actually shifting from the perspective of I'm the project manager, making sure every box is checked, to actually saying, I'm worthy just being who I am. We, David and I, have built this thing together. Of course, we need to change some of the dynamics. Yes, okay. That'll happen. I have no doubt about that.

[01:12:05] But what do we want for these next years? What do we want? You already love spending time together. That's clear. Maybe you want to travel more. Maybe not. That's also okay. But when you take those lenses off and you go, what do we actually want to do? And we actually can do most of the things, that's a different role. Lashan, tell me what you're thinking right now.

[01:12:33] Lashan: It is very funny. I was thinking that I should let the children order drinks at dinner when we go out. Because I'm like, they know that mom-- it's going to be on my tombstone, like, she was deep. She was thrifty. So they know I order water, and they're like, "Water, water, water, water."

[01:12:57] And I know sometimes they're like, "Just order Sprite." And I'm always like, "It'll be an extra $15 on top of the meal for everybody to get a drink." But yeah, that's a small thing, and it's like a little bit of joy for the family. So I shouldn't probably be so [Inaudible] with the finances.

[01:13:21] Ramit: Can I share how I might make that change in your family?

[01:13:26] Lashan: Mm-hmm.

[01:13:26] Ramit: So if you want to get them the drinks, fantastic. But I actually think I would make a big deal out of it. It is a big deal. You never let them get the drinks in, what, 20 years, right?

[01:13:38] Lashan: Occasionally.

[01:13:39] Ramit: Yeah. Or once every 10 years, here you go. This is a big moment, Lashan. Here's how I might do it. I might sit them down, nice family meeting. We're all having dinner or something. I might say, "Listen." They know about the medical diagnosis, right?

[01:13:54] Lashan: Yes.

[01:13:55] Ramit: Okay. You them sit down. You say, "You know what? I've decided that with my time here, we are going to have a lot of fun together. That's my number one. And in order to do that, dad and I have talked. Dad is going to be helping actually take some of the bill paying off of my shoulders." The whole family gasps. What? Everybody applauds. Lashan's covering her face, like, I can't even believe this is happening. Yes, yes.

[01:14:26] And you make it a whole thing. You make it a joke. I can't believe it myself. I am actually letting dad manage the mortgage payment, the this, the that. He's going to do it. "Dad, are you going to take it over?" Dad goes, "Yes, of course. I'm going to take it over. I got this." Everybody claps.

[01:14:41] Then you say, "And there's another thing. When was the last time any of you ordered a Coke when we went out to eat?" And everybody goes, "Oh god, mom. You're so stingy. Always looking at the checkbook." You go, "From now on, whenever we eat out, everybody can get their own drink."

[01:14:58] The kids are going to go like, "What the hell happened to mom? What's going on?" And Lashan, what are you going to say at the end of that announcement? Tell them why you have made that decision to switch, to let them get a drink every time. Why?

[01:15:14] Lashan: Because we can afford it, and it's a small thing that you enjoy. So we want to be able to enjoy the small and big things.

[01:15:28] Ramit: Yes. And we love you. Amazing. How do you think they would react to that?

[01:15:40] Lashan: They would be happy. What do you think?

[01:15:45] David: I think they'd be happy.

[01:15:48] Lashan: And surprised.

[01:15:50] David: Oh yeah.

[01:15:51] Ramit: I think it will be one of the core memories that they have. It's not about Coke. It's about mom acknowledging, I'm going to make a change. And it's about acknowledging ultimately time.

[01:16:07] Lashan: Mm-hmm.

[01:16:09] Ramit: Lashan, that's one of 20 things that I would love for you to start thinking about. But I make it a big deal even for a small Coke because it is a big deal. Every change you make is a big deal. As small as a Coke, as big as an international family trip, you got to tell your family what you are doing and why.

[01:16:30] You got to tell David, "David, I need you to be as conversant with these financial decisions as I am because I'm not going to be here. So in my time left, yes I could manage it all as my project manager lenses, but I'm not doing that anymore. I need you to do it." That's what this is about. It's about that transitioning the family to be as successful as you have done as the family leader.

[01:16:59] Lashan: I love that. And I love just knowing that he'll be able to handle whatever he needs to handle. And he doesn't need to have me here because I might not be here.

[01:17:14] Ramit: Yes. That is the ultimate prize of a leader, is to equip their team, in this case, your family, to be as strong as when you were here. David, you hear that? So that when she asks you to do some bill pay, which seems annoying, and you need to figure it out, maybe you miss one thing and then you fix it. Okay.

[01:17:37] David: Mm-hmm.

[01:17:38] Ramit: There's grace between you. That's okay. But there's a purpose. And when your kids have to start taking on more responsibility with the finances, and that's annoying because mom has always been there to do it, but dad now knows. As a team, mom and dad are doing this because we need you to be strong because mom's not going to be the leader one day. That's what this is about. Do you both think that you could do that together as a team?

[01:18:07] David: Definitely.

[01:18:08] Lashan: Yes.

[01:18:09] Ramit: Yes. What a great answer. Just no hesitation. I think your kids are lucky to have you, both of you. Lashan, if you could write out the script for the next few years, what would your next few years look like?

[01:18:31] Lashan: Happy being able to enjoy our time and not worry about our finances, and to have experiences that will be in the memory banks of my kids and of David, so that they can have those when I'm not here. Like, oh, we spent all of this time. We had these meaningful conversations, and we had these joyful experiences.

[01:19:01] Ramit: I love that. Can we change your CSP to reflect that?

[01:19:08] Lashan: Yeah.

[01:19:09] Ramit: Okay, let's do it. Lashan give me your powerful vision you just gave me and tell me what to change on here to make that a reality.

[01:19:22] Lashan: I definitely wanted to get our debt gone. I think we could do that in maybe 12 months.

[01:19:31] Ramit: Yes. 6,700 on your credit card. 25,000 on the HELOC. I agree. So right now you're currently paying 950 a month towards debt.

[01:19:42] Lashan: Yeah.

[01:19:43] Ramit: So what do you want to pay?

[01:19:44] Lashan: 2,500.

[01:19:47] Ramit: 2,500. All right. Okay. It takes your fixed cost up to 64%, but we know that's because of intentionally overpaying on debt. That's fine. What else?

[01:20:02] Lashan: More for vacations and experiences.

[01:20:08] Ramit: How much? Right now you have 250 a month.

[01:20:11] Lashan: 500.

[01:20:14] Ramit: 500 a month. Okay.

[01:20:20] Lashan: And then--

[01:20:21] Ramit: Still have $3,000 a month in guilt-free.

[01:20:24] Lashan: Maybe figure out more for investments on my side, and maybe David would increase his contributions.

[01:20:34] Ramit: Question.

[01:20:36] Lashan: Mm-hmm.

[01:20:37] Ramit: Lashan, when you pass away, what happens to the money that is going to be coming, starting September?

[01:20:45] Lashan: That money goes away, but there is life insurance

[01:20:49] Ramit: Ah, how much?

[01:20:51] Lashan: 680,000.

[01:20:54] Ramit: Okay. And you know that will be passed down even with your medical diagnosis.

[01:21:01] Lashan: Yes.

[01:21:02] Ramit: Okay, so 680,000. Okay. Have you mapped out what will happen to your finances when that happens?

[01:21:11] Lashan: No. My hope is that if we haven't already paid off the house, which I think we have 10 years left, that he'll have enough to pay that, which will significantly increases disposable income, and it'll give him a lot more room to make sure that he's good.

[01:21:34] Ramit: Yeah. I think at this point I don't want hope involved. I need math. That's my philosophy for life, everybody. Forget about hope. Let's crack the math book, especially when we are talking about early retirement, medical diagnosis, all these things. My suggestion, because the sensitivity on this is very high, meaning we don't have a lot of time, I would suggest you speak to a financial advisor, a flat fee advisor, not AUM.

[01:22:07] And you can use our partners at Facet or you can use anybody you find, have them run an assessment and analysis with different scenarios. What will happen if I pass in three years, five years, 10 years? What does that look like for the family finances? Because we want to be very specific.

[01:22:26] The last thing I want is, David, for you to be grieving and then you actually don't have enough money to pay three years of the mortgage. No, we're not going to let that happen. Lashan, this would actually be a perfect opportunity for you and David to partner up, not for you to run it.

[01:22:47] If anything, actually to have David run it, and you can help it along if he gets stuck. Find a flat fee advisor, speak to them, run the scenarios. And by involving David, David, you're going to feel way more confident with your knowledge of the family finances. Lashan, you're going to feel comfortable because you have a report he can use if and when he needs it. How's that sound?

[01:23:13] Lashan: Sounds good. Like a good plan.

[01:23:14] Ramit: Okay, great. But aside from the investment part, you still got 3,000 bucks a month. Remember what you told me you want to do in the next few years of life? You want to create these memories, etc.

[01:23:26] Lashan: Hmm.

[01:23:26] Ramit: So what is it?

[01:23:30] Lashan: We probably could increase our gift budget.

[01:23:37] Ramit: Okay. Your gifts are currently 150 bucks a month.

[01:23:41] Lashan: Yeah. We could increase it maybe to 250.

[01:23:44] Ramit: Okay. I would like to see a little bit going more towards savings just as an FYI. $30,000, that's nice, but I need a little bit more. If I'm Lashan, I want to leave a big fat buffer of cash just in case something happens. I'll put a little bit more in the emergency fund. You have 250 going right now. I might drop that up to 750. Look at this. You still have 2,000 bucks a month.

[01:24:15] David: We could add some more to vacations.

[01:24:21] Ramit: Definitely could.

[01:24:22] Lashan: I definitely use that when we're traveling. That is my, I almost don't care how much it costs. I will spend whatever, and I'm happy to do so. That is the one area, I think, that I am not thrifty at all. I get the best deal, but I will spend to go where we want to go.

[01:24:45] Ramit: Cool. Can we change your income so that it reflects the numbers correctly? Your income is going to be 15-- remind me your income's going to drop, Lashan.

[01:25:00] Lashan: Yes. It's going to be 6,800 a month before taxes.

[01:25:05] Ramit: 6,800 a month. And that's going to drop the net to, what do you think?

[01:25:10] Lashan: Maybe 5,000. Maybe.

[01:25:15] Ramit: 5,000? Whoa.

[01:25:16] Lashan: I don't know.

[01:25:17] Ramit: All right, so that's fine. So fixed costs are at 71%. Do you see what I'm doing here? I'm actually simulating what's about to happen with the real change in income. So right now your fixed costs are high, but that's not going to be the case forever because you're aggressively paying off debt. And soon that $2,500 a month is going to go down to zero, in which case, did you see what happened to that number?

[01:25:42] Lashan: Oh yeah.

[01:25:43] Ramit: It went from 71% to 46%.

[01:25:48] Lashan: Okay.

[01:25:49] Ramit: How does that make you feel, Lashan?

[01:25:52] Lashan: Good, because I know that 50 to 60 is the number that we should be shooting for.

[01:26:00] Ramit: Yeah. And once in a while you intentionally drive that number up. Right now, you're doing it with debt. Sometimes parents do it when they have childcare during young years. That happens. And it's okay as long as you have a plan in place. Knock this debt out in what, a year, something like that?

[01:26:19] And now you have $2,500 of cash flow to roll back into your system. No need to worry about one year's worth of intentional aggressive debt payoff. Cool. Just to continue down the line here, the only big change I will note on this is that for the next year, your guilt-free spending just went down a lot.

[01:26:44] Lashan: Mm-hmm.

[01:26:45] Ramit: You have $957 a month. That's like 250 a week.

[01:26:52] Lashan: It seems like a lot.

[01:26:55] Ramit: Well, you all have been spending 5,000 a month. Now it's going to be 1,000. What I suspect is that you probably bought a few major purchases that you're not properly amortizing or spreading out over the course of 12 or 24 months. It could be car, renovation. It could be whatever, and those are just eating up money invisibly. That's typically what happens. I also suspect you probably just eat out a lot more than you think.

[01:27:22] So if it's 15 times a week, whether it be coffee, lunch, dinner, brunch, etc., that's just money being swiped. The good news is we can figure it out. The even better news is that when I said, "Hey, it's 1,000 bucks a month," you didn't blink. You're like, "Okay, we can make it work." Am I reading that correctly?

[01:27:41] Lashan: Yeah.

[01:27:42] Ramit: Okay. David, can you make 1,000 bucks a month work?

[01:27:46] David: Oh yeah, I can try.

[01:27:49] Ramit: Okay. What do you think? Any issues? Because going from 5,000 to 1,000, a big, big drop.

[01:27:58] Lashan: Yeah, for me it's not because think that we're spending that much a month. Like I said, if I have extra, I'm like, "Ooh, $ 1,000 on the credit card, 1,500 on the HELOC." So I don't think we're being crazy, like, "Oh, we spent 4,000 on stuff or experiences a month." I don't think that's happening.

[01:28:20] Ramit: Yeah. Sometimes, very rarely, I encourage people to break the rules.

[01:28:30] Lashan: Hmm.

[01:28:31] Ramit: I like rules, but sometimes I like to break them. Sometimes when there is something more important than following the rules, break it. Little kid gets an A plus. We don't normally go out to ice cream. We're going to go out to ice cream.

[01:28:54] Somebody is sick. Normally we like to contribute, save and invest 20%. Maybe we're going to do 14%. And we're going to take the 6% and create memories we will always remember. What do you think when I say that to you?

[01:29:21] Lashan: Part of it sounds like, "Oh, this is really cool." And then the other part is like, "But does it mess up things? Is it not safe or not sensible to do that?"

[01:29:35] Ramit: What do you think, David?

[01:29:37] David: I think there's definitely something that we could do. A reward for some good grades, splurging on something, I don't think that's going to break the bank or upset the budget so terribly.

[01:29:48] Ramit: Mm-hmm.

[01:29:50] David: Definitely.

[01:29:51] Ramit: Lashan, you look like you're struggling with this concept.

[01:29:55] Lashan: No, but he's very like, "Yes, we can do that." And I'm just like, "Can we do that?"

[01:30:00] David: We're just like, "It's here and there, not all the time." But just every now and then.

[01:30:10] Ramit: I don't do this that often, but once in a while I just tell a couple what I would do. I don't like to do it because sometimes people take what I say, and they take it as a directive, but it's not. Your life is yours. I would never tell you exactly what to do with your money.

[01:30:26] But I feel the need to share what I might do just because I think that this culture of frugality and bill paying is so deep in your family, and we know that there is a timetable here that, it would be hard for me to let you go off this call without me just sharing what I might do. Is that okay?

[01:30:53] Lashan: Mm-hmm.

[01:30:53] Ramit: Okay. If it were me-- I'm looking at your CSP here-- I would talk to the family and have them create the five-year bucket list. What do we want to do that's going to be magical? We can't do it all, but let's put it out there. No idea is too crazy. No idea is too small or too big.

[01:31:15] Oh, you want to go to a movie every weekend? Done. I love the idea of shifting from the leader, Lashan, the project manager, to the inspiration where you are still a core part of the family of course, but the rest of the family is now rising up. They're not under your shadow, but they are actually being taught how to come up with these ideas, how to execute them.

[01:31:47] Maybe Lashan, you're not planning the next vacation, but your kids are because you can watch that with pride. And you can actually watch them as they miscalculated how much a freaking boat ride is going to cost because they forgot you have to tip the captain. And you laugh and everybody laughs, and they groan.

[01:32:04] And that's a core memory. And nowhere in that example did you see me agonizing over, am I paying 2,500 a month to my debt or 2,375? The debt is going to get paid off. Whether it takes 12 months or 14 months is irrelevant. It's going to happen. But the memories will not happen unless you both cause them to happen. What do you think, Lashan?

[01:32:36] Lashan: Love it. I'm laughing because I have a 13-year-old, and she's the baby, so she's always telling me things that we should be doing. Literally, all the time, she's told me several times we should go see Beyonce. Again, because that sounds like so much fun to her. So she has lots of ideas that she's happy to share all the time. And it's fun to listen to her ideas, and I'm always like, "Okay, but the budget."

[01:33:06] Ramit: Hmm. Yeah. Maybe you can't do them all.

[01:33:11] Lashan: Mm-hmm.

[01:33:12] Ramit: Maybe there's a couple things where you just go, "You know what? Let's do it."

[01:33:19] Lashan: I like that.

[01:33:24] Ramit: David, what do you think your role is here in supporting her, not just financially, but emotionally?

[01:33:33] David: I'm the enabler. I'm going to enable her to live those dreams, live the  Rich Life. I'm going to enable her to take off those glasses and hand them over.

[01:33:43] Ramit: Whoa.

[01:33:44] David: And I'm going to enable her to feel her more confident in me to be able to not worry so much about all the things that she has been dealing with.

[01:33:57] Ramit: Now that is beautiful. How are you going to enable her to do all those things?

[01:34:01] David: By supporting her, by taking over the finances, taking control away from her.

[01:34:08] Ramit: Okay.

[01:34:09] David: And involving the rest of the family so that we can all support mom and making sure that she takes care of herself instead of spending so much time taking care of us.

[01:34:20] Ramit: I love that. What a beautiful, beautiful vision. This can't be done alone. That's what I love about hearing both of you. It can't be done alone. It's the two of you. And the two of you obviously raised great kids. The two of you will take your kids into the next phase. The two of you. And David is so important, what you just said, you taking off some of that load, even wrestling it away from her.

[01:34:44] Give me that code. Give me that freaking login. I know you don't want to do it. Give me that. I love the metaphor. I love the jokes because we all know in this relationship, mom, oh, she's always thrifty, and she's always checking the bills. And so we might as well make fun of it. It's funny, not in a mean way, but just like, "Okay, mom. You're going to give me that one now."

[01:35:06] David, when you start to do that, and then you both realize, oh my God, this actually works. And then when you talk to your kids, you go, "This is what's happening." They're going to go, "No, there's no way mom isn't logging in every day." And David goes, "I've actually been doing it for the last two months." See that reaction? Exactly.

[01:35:26] In a family, the dynamics become calcified. It's really hard to change. But if the two of you do it with love, with laughing, the kids go, "Is this really happening?" It actually becomes fun. So I have the greatest wish for the two of you to have a magical  Rich Life together. Well done. How do you feel now versus when we started our conversation, David?

[01:35:59] David: I feel challenged. I feel like there's something for me to overcome. I feel like there's something for me to prove. So I'm willing to take on that challenge and be the leader.

[01:36:14] Ramit: Amazing. I love that word. I feel challenged. I really love the way you put that. Lashan, same question for you. How do you feel now versus when we first started talking?

[01:36:24] Lashan: I feel like I see the possibility for joy and fun and really making, I think, more of our time together than the way that we've been using our time.

[01:36:41] Ramit: Yes, yes, yes, yes. This is why I wanted to speak to you-- of doing more, of playing big, of going on offense rather than worrying only about playing defense. Take those glasses off. Throw them away. You can decide what your dynamic is. I have very high confidence in both of you, and I'm very grateful that I got a chance to meet you both.

[01:37:05] Lashan: Thank you. I'm so grateful for having this time to talk to you, and I'm ready to do some homework and take off my glasses.

[Narration]

[01:37:15] Ramit: This conversation sat with me for a while after we wrapped. Lashan and David are warm, beautiful, loving couple, and they've built a life together with kids, a home, million-dollar net worth, and now they are facing something that is almost too big and too scary to say out loud.

[01:37:34] Mortality changes everything. And yet some habits are so deeply ingrained that even the knowledge of death doesn't shake them. Lashan's role has always been the leader, the planner, the protector. But that identity, which has been so carefully built, is costing her time. And changing that role is not easy.

[01:37:59] I keep thinking about something Lashan said in our conversation. She said, I should probably let the kids order drinks at dinner. And she laughed when she said it, but I couldn't stop thinking about that moment. Because if we can't splurge on a few drinks when we are doing financially okay, then when can we? Do we need to be sick to finally say, "We should use some of this money?" Isn't there a way to build a healthier relationship with money now?

[01:38:26] That's why I love being able to share this podcast with you and why I write my books for you. I want you to stop waiting for tomorrow and to really look at your life today. Craft that beautiful vision, and actually start living it. Oh, and by the way, the missing $5,000, it bugged me so much that I offered to have my team comb through all of their statements.

[01:38:48] But less than 24 hours later, Lashan emailed me, and she said, "I realized I just listed the minimum debt payment instead of the full amount we've been paying. So yeah, that extra 5k, not actually there. LOL. Mystery solved." Honestly, it makes perfect sense that Lashan has quietly been putting thousands of extra dollars towards debt.

[01:39:10] The good news is that their debt will be gone even faster. But more importantly, I hope this conversation gave her the momentum to rewrite her story. Because as we discovered today, sometimes the issue is not math. It is the stories that we cling to from decades ago about control, about roles, about what it means to be a good partner and a good parent.

[01:39:32] Lashan and David have done a lot of work. They've built the life that they wanted. My hope is that they can focus on living it. So I want to give a huge thank you to Lashan and David for speaking with me, and now check out their follow-ups.

[01:39:45] Lashan: Hi, Ramit. I think the biggest surprise for me was that our financial picture was not going to be as dire as I was worried it would be going into retirement. Also, that me being in the driver's seat of our family finances was also a measure of comfort for me. I think my takeaway is that I need to allow David to step up as he indicated he was willing to, and loosen the reins of control a little bit.

[01:40:24] And things that we've done since then is we scheduled a money meeting, which we had, and we both talked about our finances. I gave David the passwords to all of our bills, and we looked at everything and saw what we owed, how I'd been paying them. And we had a conversation about how to allocate our money toward debt for this month, which we did. I think that if we keep moving in the same direction, we will take the burden off of me and also make sure that he's involved and knows what's going on for the future. Thank you.

[01:41:08] David: Hi, this is David with just a quick follow-up since we had our call with Ramit. My biggest surprise from that call was our net worth. I didn't realize that our net worth would be that high, so I was very surprised to find that out. Pleasantly surprised, I would say.

[01:41:25] Biggest takeaway was that I think the support that Lashan needed from me was more than just for financial. I think it was also more of an emotional support. So definitely willing to be there for her. Definitely invested in supporting her and making sure that she feels like we're both in this thing together.

[01:41:49] So that being said, going forward, we've already had a sit down just to go through the finances so we can discuss where we are, what actions we're planning to take, and just to make sure that both of us are equally aware and invested in our future going forward. So once again, thanks to Ramit and his team. Appreciate talking to you guys.

[01:42:12] Ramit: This conversation reminds me of one of the most memorable episodes of this podcast. I still cannot stop thinking about it. It's Episode 60 called “My health is in question, but I don't want to stop making money." In this episode, I spoke to a couple. She was told, because of a medical condition, she had roughly five or 10 years left to live. And in that time, she wanted to make memories with her kid, with her husband, but she did not want to stop working.

[01:42:42] And when I asked her why, she said, "I like the money." But she already had tons of money. The episode reveals how difficult it is for us to give up our story, our role, our identity, even when we are facing death. This is what I want you to understand. You think that one day, if you suddenly make $5 million, you're going to change who you are? It'll never happen.

[01:43:10] You think if you're facing death, you're going to finally change? It probably won't happen unless you decide to start changing today. That unforgettable episode is Episode 60, “My health is in question, but I don't want to stop making money.” If you like this video, check out another one of my favorites right here.