Episode 223. “We make $81k/yr in our 30s. Is that enough?”

Becca (35) and Nikki (31) are planning their wedding, but they’re already struggling with how to merge their money. Becca, a rock climbing guide with a variable income, has thrown herself into personal finance after years of scarcity thinking and now tracks every dollar. Nikki wants to feel more empowered but often defers to Becca’s lead—and sometimes hides financial stress, like credit card debt.

Together they net around $80,000, but with high fixed costs, student loans, and uncertainty about investing, their dream of building wealth feels out of reach. They want a clear, intentional financial plan that lets them invest confidently and step into marriage as equal partners. Can Ramit help them overcome ambivalence, balance their roles, and create a structure that supports both their dreams and their future together?

In this episode we uncover:

• Why Becca tracks every single dollar
• Nikki’s tendency to “not overthink” spending
• The power dynamic of one partner leading on money while the other defers
• How Becca’s deep dive into personal finance turned her into the household CFO
• Why high fixed costs and seasonal income keep them from investing the way they want
• The emotional tug-of-war between wanting to combine finances and being afraid of what that might mean
• How their childhood money lessons still show up in every conversation
• What they imagine for their Rich Life together, and why ambivalence keeps them from making clear decisions
• Ramit’s challenge to build a financial structure that balances empowerment, responsibility, and trust

Chapters:

(00:00:00) “I don’t want to steer us wrong”

(00:17:09) Ramit breaks down their numbers

(00:26:21) Childhood money scripts that carry into adulthood

(00:39:41) “Why are you playing so small?”

(00:49:22) “The freedom is in the commitment”

(01:06:12) Redesigning their Conscious Spending Plan

(01:26:23) Where are they now? Becca and Nikki’s follow-ups

This episode is brought to you by:

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Links mentioned in this episode 

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Transcript 

Download the full transcript PDF 

[00:00:04] Ramit: Your net income is 81k. How's that strike you? Is that a lot of money, a little money? What do you think?

[00:00:10] Nikki: It's not a lot, especially where we live.

[00:00:13] Becca: I haven't been able to crack through to make more. I've maxed out at $40,000 a year.

[00:00:21] Ramit: And what's the power dynamic when it comes to money?

[00:00:23] Nikki: I'll feel attacked, and so I call Becca out on it.

[00:00:26] Becca: I have this thing with my tone where I say like, "Okay, I want to be better about that."

[00:00:32] Nikki: You don't have to say it that way. Why are you talking to me like that?

[00:00:36] Becca: I feel stressed and unsure of how I'm going to make it work in this world.

[Narration]

[00:00:40] Ramit: Listen to this line from this application. "We both struggle to make a decent annual wage. We live quite frugally and usually avoid spending money. I don't want to feel that way. We're planning to get married next year, and I feel unsure about the best way to combine finances."

[00:00:58] Today I am speaking with Becca and Nikki. Becca is 35, Nikki is 31, and they live in a high cost of living area in Colorado. Becca recently started taking control of her finances. She's been reading my material, learning about money, and she's been trying to get Nikki to do the same, but that's causing tension. And just as you saw, they came into this conversation stressed and afraid they're not making enough and unable to talk about money without arguing. You'll see it play out in this discussion.

[00:01:28] But first, let's take a look at the numbers. I'm looking at their conscious spending plan, and you can download the same template for free at iwt.com/csp. Their assets, $13,650. Investments, 53,843. Savings, 13,500. Debt, 18,000. Total net worth is 62,993. That's not bad for a couple in their 30s, taking home around $80,000 a year. Fixed costs are 69%, which is higher than I would like to see. Investments are 9%. I'd like to see that number a little higher. Savings at 6%. Guilt-free spending at 16%.

[00:02:11] Now, before we go on, knowing the numbers and knowing the challenge you just heard, how would you approach this conversation? Well, let's find out what I did with Becca and Nikki.

[Interview]

[00:02:23] Ramit: How do you both feel about combining your money as you soon get married?

[00:02:28] Becca: I feel a little trepidatious about it.

[00:02:32] Ramit: Good word. Nikki?

[00:02:35] Nikki: I feel like I avoid how I might feel about it. I don't know.

[00:02:44] Ramit: Oh.

[00:02:45] Nikki: I'm just like, uh-uh.

[00:02:47] Ramit: What was that again?

[00:02:49] Nikki: Uh-uh.

[00:02:55] Ramit: Okay. Becca, you told my producer you feel scared to combine. What's behind that?

[00:03:02] Becca: What's behind that is just the unknown, the lack of control, I think, around what's going in and what's going out. I feel like it makes sense to do so in a capacity, but I think it's hard for me to feel like, oh, this is our money when I've been just so oriented around my money forever.

[00:03:32] Ramit: Tell me why.

[00:03:34] Becca: I used to just collect cash and count it all the time.

[00:03:40] Ramit: Mm-hmm. Take me to that scene. So you're like, what in your bedroom, and you're counting dollar bills, or what?

[00:03:47] Becca: Yeah, yeah. I would get allowance in high school, and then I would play poker with my friends. I had my little winnings jar, and I would track how much I was winning and losing and just liked holding money in my hand.

[00:04:01] Ramit: Why? What did it mean to you?

[00:04:04] Becca: It feels abundant. Like, ah, this is real money. I have this.

[00:04:09] Ramit: Finish the sentence. I have this, so now I can-- notice Nikki's face, by the way. We're coming to you, Nikki. Don't worry. Go ahead, Becca.

[00:04:21] Becca: So now I can feel like I have money.

[00:04:23] Ramit: I have money so now I can feel like I have money. That's quite interesting. That's quite  interesting.

[00:04:29] Becca: Yeah, I can buy things. I can do things. But yeah, I think it's almost more that underlying, I feel like I have money.

[00:04:36] Ramit: What if you had $50 or $50,000 in a 401(k) locked away somewhere? Would that feel real to you?

[00:04:45] Becca: It does feel real. And that's part of my thing too, is I check my accounts too often, because I think there's a piece of that.

[00:04:51] Ramit: Right. Okay. Nikki, how come you were smiling so much?

[00:04:58] Nikki: I was smiling, I think in part because I had never heard Becca talk about her relationship with money as a kid. And then the prompt that you gave her to finish that sentence. It just feels like a moment of beginning to dig into like, what is it about this for her?

[00:05:17] Ramit: You ever catch her at night-- this is the modern day version-- she's got her phone open, and she's just looking at different tabs of accounts? She's like, "Yes."

[00:05:25] Nikki: More often, she is crunching numbers. She's on her calculator, and she's thinking about different scenarios. And she's like, well, if this and that. And let me multiply. It's like a little game to just do arithmetic about money.

[00:05:39] Ramit: And what is your reaction to that when you're watching that?

[00:05:42] Nikki: I see it, it excites her, and I love her, so I think it's cute.

[00:05:49] Ramit: Cool. Okay, great. I'm curious about a time that you disagreed about money. Tell me exactly where you were and what happened.

[00:06:01] Nikki: We were in the car, and we were listening to your book, Money for Couples. And we were talking about IRAs and Roth IRAs and investment accounts. I still hadn't looked at the definitions of all of these things. I couldn't recall, at least in the moment, what IRA even stood for. And then I think after Becca attempted to explain to me a couple of times, I still wasn't getting it.

[00:06:30] So there was a moment of frustration, where she was using more force in her voice and using more pointed hand gestures, and that style of communication can just really quickly shut me down. And the reason is because I am super sensitive to feeling like I am stupid or I am not capable of understanding something, particularly when it comes to anything numbers focused. And so it was less about our money and more about money concepts and the asymmetry in our education on it.

[00:07:16] Ramit: Got it. Can you define for me, Nikki, at that moment, if you zoomed above yourselves and you just saw yourselves floating, what role were you playing in that conversation, and what role was Becca playing?

[00:07:31] Nikki: I think it can be reduced to teacher and student.

[00:07:34] Ramit: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:35] Nikki: But within a couple, that's not always a great dynamic to be in.

[00:07:39] Ramit: So you start to feel a little judged, a little, like, I don't like this feeling of being taught with more pointed phrases. What happens then?

[00:07:53] Nikki: Typically, I'll feel attacked, and so I call Becca out on it, but in a woe is me type of way like, be nice to me.

[00:08:01] Ramit: Just tell me what you said.

[00:08:02] Nikki: What did I say? "You don't have to say it that way. Why are you talking to me like that?"

[00:08:12] Ramit: Okay. That was good. I felt like I was in the room. And then, Becca?

[00:08:18] Becca: I'm like, "When it's the fourth time, it's hard for me to say in a nicer way."

[00:08:23] Ramit: Wait. Can I just say something? Aren't the two of you actively listening to my book, Money for Couples, where I literally show you what to say, and in the audio book, I actually show you how to say it. This is crazy right now.

[00:08:35] Nikki: No. Ramit, we were listening to that chapter. Literally, I wrote a seething text to her after we got home, and she had to leave to go to something, and I was like, we're literally listening to the book. It was the chapter. It was like the avoidant or worry partner, they're going to react. And so this is how you can support them. And during the money date, if they need to step away, you can say, sure, we can step away. I want this to stay positive for you. And I was like, how is she not getting this?

[00:09:07] Becca: It's hard in the moment.

[00:09:09] Ramit: Who failed in this situation? Was it me? I don't think it was me.

[00:09:12] Becca: You didn't fail. You didn't fail.

[00:09:14] Ramit: Because I'm like, I literally gave you the words and the intonation. All right. Okay. Anyway, so I assume the conversation just died and then you never resolved it.

[00:09:26] Becca: We resolved. Yeah.

[00:09:28] Ramit: Oh. How?

[00:09:29] Becca: So I have this thing with my tone where I say like, okay, I want to like be better about that. Nikki says, I want to see you trying in that regard. And so when we came back to being in person, we just talked about what that meant. Because I felt like I really was trying, especially the first couple times of explaining it. I felt like I did a good job. And then I got impatient.

[00:09:56] And instead of saying like, wow, I'm starting to feel impatient right now. Can we like table this for later? Which is what I'll do next time. I just probably shut down in my own way, noticing how it was shutting Nikki down, and then feeling guilty about it because I want money conversations to feel fun.

[00:10:17] I love the topic, and I want it to feel exciting to talk about. And yet I somehow have this way of making it unapproachable when it actually happens in reality. And then I just feel sad and confused and shame about it because--

[00:10:32] Ramit: Can I tell you what's going on? It's happening right now. It's like a lot of overexplaining. I'm just going to go out on a limb here because I'm only hearing a bit of this right now. Nikki's, like, "What's an IRA? Nikki probably does not want the history of IRAs and how they relate to SEP IRAs and 401(k).

[00:10:49] It's like, give me the cocktail party answer, and let's move on. And if there's something where it becomes technical, because not everything can be explained in one sentence, then there's a way of answering it. You can say, "Look, an IRA is like a 401(k), but it has slightly different advantages. Why don't I send a link to it a little bit later?"

[00:11:11] Becca, I see a lot of myself in you, which is when you get good at something, it's so rare that someone is even curious. And so when they are curious, you're like, "Blah." Let me verbally vomit everything out to you. And like, oh, you need to understand this, how this relates to that. And their eyes just glaze over. You saw it, right?

[00:11:30] Becca: I feel like I was being mostly concise in the car yesterday, and yes, I am an over-explainer.

[00:11:37] Ramit: Wait. What? Aren't those two directly contradictory? I was concise, and also, I'm an over-explainer. Huh?

[00:11:45] Becca: I'm working on it.

[00:11:46] Ramit: All right. Nikki, you were in the car too. How does my comments strike you?

[00:11:51] Nikki: It does make sense. And Becca and I think in really different ways. And I think that that is a bridge that we're learning to close for how we can each learn how to explain things in a way that lands with each other's thinking patterns. If we looked at it on paper, it's possible that it would be like, why isn't this person getting it? It's been explained three times. But for whatever reason, I still wasn't understanding the difference between three different things.

[00:12:32] Ramit: Okay.

[00:12:32] Nikki: I don't know why. And yeah, that ended up being frustrating for both of us. For me, I was like, "Why am I not getting this?" And Becca's like, "Why is she not getting this?"

[Narration]

[00:12:41] Ramit: Combining money is more than just combining accounts. It's taking one person's history with money, combining it with another person's history with money, and then creating a shared vision of money together. And by the way, most of us don't even know our own history of money, and we don't even realize that it exists. If I asked you, "What is your history with money? What would you say?"

[00:13:04] Well, let's look at the clues here. Becca's history says something like, if I can track every dollar and hold it in my hands, then it's real and I'm safe. Nikki's history with money says something like, I'm learning about money, but when I don't understand something, I feel small.

[00:13:23] They are totally different in how they think about money, and until you understand each other's worldviews, you'll find that you'll keep having the same fights over and over, which are usually about something totally unrelated. When couples fight about how much one person spent at the grocery store, the fight is not about cucumbers. It's about something much bigger.

[00:13:43] That's why I don't think you should start with questions like, how much debt do you have? Or even, I think we should buy a house. I would rather you start with big, open-ended questions and genuine curiosity, like, what does money mean to you? Because that answer will tell you more than any spreadsheet ever could.

[00:14:01] If you want help on how to ask better questions with money, if you want to understand your own relationship with money, you can get my journal, which is available on Amazon or bookshop.org. Right after this, we're going to get into their numbers.

[Interview]

[00:14:16] Ramit: Let's take a look at your numbers. Okay, Becca, I'm going to ask you to read off the word in bold and then the number in full next to it for this entire box.

[00:14:26] Becca: All right. Assets, $13,650. Investments, $53,843. Savings, $13,500. Debt, $18,000. Total net worth, $62,993.

[00:14:48] Ramit: Great. What do you think about that?

[00:14:51] Becca: Not bad. Okay.

[00:14:53] Ramit: Cool. Nikki?

[00:14:56] Nikki: Yeah, surprising.

[00:14:59] Ramit: Mm-hmm. Why?

[00:15:00] Nikki: Partially because I did not know what comprised net worth until recently. And I don't have a ton of student debt, but I do have debt, and so I was surprised to see that it was as positive a number as it is.

[00:15:17] Ramit: Good. All right. Cool. Let's go to the income section. This time, Nikki, I'm going to ask you to read off your gross combined monthly income. What's that number?

[00:15:28] Nikki: That's $9,150.

[00:15:31] Ramit: Okay. Cool. So collectively, the two of you make $109,800 per year. Did you know that?

[00:15:40] Becca: I didn't know that. It's not actually because that's not actually how much we make.

[00:15:44] Ramit: Hold on. Hold on. Let's just answer my question and then you can get into the complexity. Nikki, did you know that?

[00:15:50] Nikki: I didn't.

[00:15:51] Ramit: Okay. Becca, did you know that. She's tortured right now? Because she's like, "You can't just multiply by 12. I have a variable income." I [Bleep] get it. Just answer the question.

[00:16:01] Becca: I knew we made around $100,000 combined.

[00:16:03] Ramit: Around 100. This is 10% more than 100.

[00:16:10] Becca: It's made-up numbers.

[00:16:12] Ramit: Oh, because it's not in your hand?

[00:16:15] Becca: Yeah.

[00:16:15] Ramit: Hmm, okay.

[00:16:16] Becca: Okay, No, because some of it's 1099, and so that's just going out, and then some of it is just estimated.

[00:16:28] Ramit: I get it. I understand the life of an entrepreneur. You can't directly count everything times 12. I get that. Nikki, what amount did you think your household made?

[00:16:41] Nikki: I think I would've guessed closer to 80.

[00:16:44] Ramit: Okay, 80. $30,000 less.

[00:16:47] Becca: But that's how much we actually make.

[00:16:50] Ramit: Okay, we're going to get into it now because I know you're itching to tell me, Becca. Why does the very CSP that you yourselves created indicate that you make $109,800, but actually you make less? Explain it.

[00:17:04] Becca: Because net and gross are different.

[00:17:06] Ramit: I'm only talking about gross.

[00:17:08] Becca: I know, but I guess I don't understand. Gross is not the reality of how much we're actually making because that money is there for a moment, but we're going to have to dish out thousands of dollars of that and save that and make sure we have that to give it back.

[00:17:25] Ramit: Are you both entrepreneurs?

[00:17:28] Nikki: Now we are, yeah.

[00:17:29] Ramit: Now, okay. It is true as entrepreneurs, you do have to set aside money to pay your taxes versus working for a company where the company will do that for you. That is true. It is the difference between owning a car where it seems like every time you drive it, it's basically free, because you already paid for it, and you are paying for it on a monthly payment versus getting a lift and being like, "Oh my God, we got to pay $28 to go to dinner."

[00:17:56] The reason we talk about gross is that everybody has a gross income and we got to start there. Because I could take your income, and I could put away like a bunch of money pre-tax, and it just wouldn't make sense. So that's why we always start by talking about gross.

[00:18:10] All right. So your gross income is 109,000, and your net income is 81k, right? How's that strike you? Is that a lot of money, a little money? What do you think? Becca, you're shaking your head.

[00:18:28] Becca: It's not a lot of money. We make it work. We make it work quite well.

[00:18:33] Ramit: Okay, Nikki?

[00:18:34] Becca: Yeah.

[00:18:34] Ramit: A lot or a little?

[00:18:36] Nikki: It's not a lot, especially where we live.

[00:18:39] Ramit: Okay. Shall we continue going down the rest of the CSP?

[00:18:44] Nikki: Yeah.

[00:18:44] Ramit: All right. Fixed costs. Becca, what do you see here on this number?

[00:18:47] Becca: 69%.

[00:18:48] Ramit: 69%. Okay. We will come back to that. Investments, what do you see?

[00:18:53] Becca: 9%.

[00:18:54] Ramit: Mm-hmm. Savings?

[00:18:56] Becca: 6%.

[00:18:57] Ramit: And guilt-free spending?

[00:18:59] Becca: 16%.

[00:19:00] Ramit: What do you think about those numbers?

[00:19:05] Becca: Well, fixed costs aren't supposed to be that high.

[00:19:08] Ramit: Fixed costs are a little higher than they should be. Typically, I like to see 50 to 60%. I agree. What else? Investments are at 9%.

[00:19:17] Becca: Yeah. I feel like we could be investing more and putting more in savings. I think those numbers are also, especially the savings, because I know you have your automate regular mentality, I set that up when I'm making money, but when I'm not making as much money, I'm like, oh, I have money. I'll put a bunch of money into savings account.

[00:19:44] Ramit: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:45] Becca: And so those are just random estimates in a way.

[00:19:51] Ramit: Okay. Let me ask some questions. Becca, what do you do for a living?

[00:19:54] Becca: So my main job is I'm a rock climbing coach and guide. I started my own company this year. I also work for another company, a tech wellness startup. And so I am working essentially part-time or rainy-day job when I don't have guiding work, which right now I'm in the thick of my guiding season. And this is actually the time of year when I make money.

[00:20:20] Ramit: Okay. Nikki, what do you do for a living?

[00:20:23] Nikki: I now work full-time for this wellness tech startup.

[00:20:26] Ramit: What type of role do you work in?

[00:20:29] Nikki: I'm a project manager and executive assistant.

[00:20:31] Ramit: Cool. Now Becca, you mentioned that your income is variable. How variable are we talking about? What's a good month, and what's a not so good month?

[00:20:45] Becca: February, essentially make nothing. My total amount was 600 bucks. And then the best is like $6,000.

[00:20:59] Ramit: Okay. 600 to 6,000. I could see that's tough to plan on.

[Narration]

[00:21:03] Ramit: I just want to jump in here because I get a lot of questions from entrepreneurs on how to handle variable income. Becca is experiencing the thing where one month she might make $6,000, the next month, $600. How are you supposed to plan for that? Well, I'm going to show you. The basic concept here is you have to know your fixed costs or how much does it cost to keep the lights on? Just the minimum every month.

[00:21:28] Now, three steps to it. Step one, find the amount in your fixed costs from your conscious spending plan. If you don't already know this, you can download our template. It's automatically done for you. You can get it for free at iwt.com/csp.

[00:21:43] Step two. Whenever you earn more than that number to keep the lights on, you put that extra money in a buffer savings account. You can literally create a savings account, call it Buffer. And in the months where you earn less than that amount, you draw from that buffer account to cover your fixed costs.

[00:22:02] Step three, do this until you have six months of fixed costs saved up. Once you have filled that buffer account up. You're in a really good position because now you can simulate having a steady income, and that's because you'll have enough to float yourself in slow months.

[00:22:18] By the way, I should mention this buffer account is different than an emergency fund. All right. Now let's get back to the CSP.

[Interview]

[00:22:25] Ramit: I saw some debt in the CSP. I see $18,000 of debt. Whose debt is that?

[00:22:32] Nikki: That's my student loan debt.

[00:22:33] Ramit: Okay. What's the interest rate?

[00:22:35] Nikki: It's deferred right now, so I don't know the interest rate.

[00:22:39] Ramit: Okay. Have you ever paid on it?

[00:22:42] Nikki: I paid on it years and years, like early 20s is when I was paying on it. And then I applied for it to be deferred, and it's just paused there as policy changes or doesn't change. Every year, it says next year you'll have to start paying, and it just hasn't happened yet. So I leave it. If it's not accruing interest, I'm waiting until I feel like I have enough money that I can actually start paying it off.

[00:23:12] Ramit: Got it.

[00:23:13] Nikki: Or waiting for policy to change and for it to disappear.

[00:23:18] Ramit: Yeah. Okay. All right. So $18,000 of student debt just sitting there. All right. You're getting married next year. Have you picked a number for how much you're going to spend on your wedding?

[00:23:35] Becca: My parents' Supported my siblings getting married. And so I asked them how much they gave to those weddings to have an idea. And so they've offered around $20,000 and I think we do not want to spend a dollar more than that.

[00:23:53] Nikki: Yeah.

[00:23:53] Ramit: 20k.

[00:23:55] Becca: Yeah. Max, like that still, still sounds like a lot of money, which I know it's not for a wedding, but--

[00:24:00] Ramit: Nikki, are you on board?

[00:24:02] Nikki: Yeah. I mean, if we can do less, let's do less. But Becca comes from a traditional family where a wedding is really important, and the celebration and ceremony is important to us. So like, we want to do the thing. We don't want to elope, but yeah. How thrifty can we be?

[00:24:19] Becca: The principle, I don't even want to spend more than 20k.

[00:24:22] Nikki: Yeah.

[00:24:22] Ramit: Yeah. Okay. Speaking of parents, I want to understand more about how you grew up. Becca, let's start with you. What do you remember your family saying about money when you were young?

[00:24:38] Becca: The one thing that stands out is being in the grocery store with my mom and or shopping and my mom saying, is it on sale?

[00:24:47] Ramit: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:50] Becca: And so I really remember that. I remember an experience being in like a toy store with my mom and wanting this stuffed animal really badly. And she wouldn't buy it for me, but she said I could save up and I think she would split it with me. It was like probably a $20 toy.

[00:25:10] Ramit: Okay.

[00:25:10] Becca: And I remember like bawling about it, but then I like saved up and we bought the toy and I was like, didn't even like the toy.

[00:25:19] Ramit: What did that first example, is it on sale? What did that mean to you?

[00:25:26] Becca: Yeah. I think that one has had a long-term impact. That means like, can we get it cheaper? Don't pay full price.

[00:25:36] Ramit: Mm-hmm. Why?

[00:25:39] Becca: Because we can get a better deal.

[00:25:41] Ramit: Hmm. So paying less is a better deal. And if you pay more, what does it mean about you?

[00:25:49] Becca: My own philosophy on that is that you're like losing the game.

[00:25:55] Ramit: Right. By the way, that's your own philosophy, or is that your mom and dad's philosophy?

[00:26:02] Becca: At this point, my parents' philosophy is very different than it used to be. I think that's my philosophy, but I think it's been bred into me in some way.

[00:26:15] Ramit: Okay. What else do you remember? So you were young, seemed like she was thoughtful about money. Would you say she was frugal?

[00:26:25] Becca: Yeah. We were frugal. Like we had a really big corner house and friends would come over and they would say, wow, your house is so big. And I would feel a little like, oh, like a little shame about it. But if we're comparing to our own family orbit, like we've always been sort of like the lower end of like our greater family orbit.

[00:26:48] Ramit: Define your family structure? Socioeconomically were you middle class, upper middle class?

[00:26:53] Becca: I think upper middle class.

[00:26:54] Ramit: Upper middle class people love to compare themselves to wealthy people. They're like, oh, we're simple salt of the earth. We're not Jeff Bezos. They do that a lot.

[00:27:02] Becca: Yeah. And my dad's an entrepreneur. Sometimes it was great and stress free, and sometimes it was really stressful and making the bills was like not easy. And there was four of us running around the house and it was chaotic.

[00:27:14] Ramit: As you got older, did anything change with money in your family?

[00:27:20] Becca: I mean my parents essentially put four kids through college. We did take out loans and whenever I had my student debt, I think my parents were in a much more comfortable place since I'm the youngest. And my mom was like, well, I can just pay this off so it doesn't accrue interest. And so now I'm sort of principally paying my mom back $50 a month. It's just an automated thing. It's not like-- it's just by principle.

[00:27:52] Ramit: Like, you're not going to actually pay the amount back, but it's just a principle thing.

[00:27:55] Becca: Yeah.

[00:27:56] Ramit: Okay. Cool. Nikki, let's go back to your childhood. What do you remember your family saying about money when you were young?

[00:28:07] Nikki: It was a lot of like, that's expensive. We can't afford that. But then also sort of oddly balanced with my parents trying really hard to give me whatever I wanted. In daily life, really frugal. And then you get to have some really sweet surprises, like a couple times a year, Christmas, birthday.

[00:28:35] Ramit: Were your parents together when you were growing up?

[00:28:38] Nikki: No, parents separated when I was a baby. Dad, married my stepmom when I was two, so always separated and, working class, both sides, but mom, very working class. She worked hard to build up something for herself, but it was like gas station clerk, waitress, then dental assistant, then administrator job, like after I left for college. So really worked hard to get something. Dad, carpenter my whole life. But an interesting window of time between like, I think 2001 and 2008 where he had a partner and was making more money through that setup. And so we got to have a little bit bigger of a house and I got to go to a private school for three years. So it went from like really poor to like, I think approaching middle class is what my guess would be. And then back to very much working class. So I lived in a big townhouse for three years, but then it was back to two-bedroom apartment, five-person family.

[00:29:48] And even through the period where my dad was making a little more, there just was this instilled knowing that we couldn't afford very much. So yeah, just scarcity all through.

[00:30:05] Ramit: You still feel that today?

[00:30:07] Nikki: For sure. Yeah. Yeah. And my attitude, I think beginning in high school was very much about like cycle breaking. I was a first generation college kid, and so it was like, I'm going to go to college and I'm going to make more money than my family. And I did go to college, but I didn't graduate. And I probably make more at my age than they did. Actually, I know I did do. And so have I achieved that cycle breaking? For sure. I'm not a teen mom. I live in a real apartment and not an RV.

[00:30:42] Ramit: Personally, I think it's quite impressive. I know how difficult it is to achieve things when it's not naturally around you. If everybody around you goes to college and graduates, then it's expected. It was expected for me to go to a great college and to grad. That was just like breathing oxygen. That was table stakes. If that's not the case for you, it is really hard. You're fighting against something that you may not even know. And to be able to accomplish going to college is impressive.

[00:31:13] Like you said, not living in an RV, that's impressive. Now that you've shared a little bit more about how you grew up with money, what patterns from your own childhood and families do you see showing up in your relationship with money today?

[00:31:29] Becca: I think that is it on sale concept really stuck with me, which is also interesting because recently my mom said, isn't the grocery store great? You can just buy whatever you want there. And I was like, what? That's not what I learned. And so I've been trying to adopt that mentality.

[00:31:50] But when we go to a restaurant or we go anywhere, first thing I'm doing is scanning numbers. Second thing I'm doing is going to the cheapest ones. Every time I'm ordering out, it feels existential.

[00:32:07] Ramit: Nikki, what patterns show up for you from your childhood today with money?

[00:32:14] Nikki: Just really intense frugality with a couple times a year spending a little more than I mean to. So we barely eat out. I don't buy new clothes, if I can help it. If I need something, I'll buy thrift. But even then, it's just like so rare. If I need or want something for the house, I'll fill up my Amazon cart with items and then just abandon it and never buy any of it. Maybe one item that I really feel like I need. So just to like, don't spend, don't spend, don't spend until it feels like it's crucial.

[00:32:59] And then maybe twice a year I need to buy some new cosmetics. And so I go to Walgreens and I buy five items and it's a hundred dollars. And I'm like, [Bleep]. Like, do I even really need this? Like, that's so much money for mascara, like what the hell?

[00:33:22] Ramit: It's interesting, the way you described it, you said most of the time I'm quite frugal. There are a couple times throughout the year where I will sort of spend more than I thought, and I was thinking, oh, okay. What's it going to be like? Is it a vacation? Is it this? No, it's cosmetics and eating at a restaurant. Now everything is relative. If your income is $32,000, that actually is quite extravagant for that income. Your household income is almost $110,000.

[00:33:58] And I wonder if your behavior is aligned with your actual finances, which we're going to find out a little bit more about. Becca, does Nikki look at prices the same way that you do?

[00:34:13] Becca: No, not the same. And sometimes it bothers me.

[00:34:17] Ramit: Give me an example.

[00:34:19] Becca: Maybe she'll order something on Amazon or go to the grocery store and come back with some items that we don't have a plan for or didn't seem necessary. And the other day she pulled out like five lip glosses from her fanny pack and she was like, why do I have all of these?

[00:34:46] And I was like, I don't know, you probably just forgot you had them and then you bought another one. And she is like, yeah. And I'm just tracking so much and trying to be so thoughtful about where I put those dollars. and then she's just clearly isn't, and I don't like at this point, like I'm not shaming her for it. But I definitely feel a little thing in me of like, why did you spend another 5, $10 on that?

[00:35:14] Ramit: Yeah.

[00:35:14] Becca: We had this like fricking artichoke that went bad. It's an artichoke. It's just an artichoke. Like it was probably like $4. And I'm like, it went bad. Like in me I'm like, what a waste of money and food.

[00:35:30] Ramit: I do have a question for you, Becca. Why are you playing so small?

[00:35:36] Becca: It's a great question.

[00:35:38] Nikki: Oh, that's an existential one, that phrasing.

[00:35:42] Becca: I know your philosophy is focus on like the $30,000 questions versus the $30 questions or the $3 questions. And $3 plus $3 plus $3 many, many times adds up to $1,000. And because I haven't been able to crack through to make more than like, I've maxed out at $40,000 a year and every year I'm like, okay, this is the year I'm going to like, make more.

[00:36:21] Ramit: Mm-hmm.

[00:36:21] Becca: Like I have a vision for it, I have a way, I've got ideas and it just doesn't happen. And I've made more in the last five years than I made in the tenfold 10 years prior to that. So there's growth there, but that was from like $20,000 a year. And so it's like, well if I am struggling so much to just make more money than these dollars matter.

[00:36:50] Ramit: I agree. I agree that when you cannot increase your income or when it's been hard, that proportionally the amount of dollars matters. That's why when I said, hey, if you're making 30k a year, you have to make different choices than someone making 300k. We all get that. How do you make financial decisions for the two of you?

[00:37:17] Becca: We talked about this recently. We haven't had to make big financial decisions. I think the biggest one was moving out of the basement of a five-person house last year and deciding to pay twice as much in rent to move into our own place. That's probably the biggest financial decision we've made. 

[00:37:25] Ramit: How did you decide? 

[00:37:28] Becca: We decided because we said we need to get the [Bleep] out of this basement.

[00:37:39] Ramit: Did you decide based on numbers or was it purely like, we got to get out?

[00:37:43] Becca: We got to get out. We have friends who have a two-bedroom place that's $2,000, so we know it's possible to find something that cheap around here. So let's find something that cheap.

[00:37:53] Ramit: That's pretty much how most people make their consequential housing decisions. They just go like, I don't like what's happening in my life right now. We got to do something. That is a number. Not even that number applies. It's just like, that is a number, sign me up. So. Okay. What about when you make a decision that the other one doesn't fully understand? Has this happened?

[00:38:21] Nikki: I took a toll road to go to the airport to pick up my sister, so I had a toll bill. Becca didn't understand or relate to that. My answer was, I'd rather pay a few dollars and have a better experience than feel the stress of driving through the city and the traffic.

[00:38:40] Ramit: How long did you have that conversation about the toll road for?

[00:38:44] Becca: She kept getting these toll bills.

[00:38:47] Ramit: Okay.

[00:38:48] Nikki: And one of them was wrong, and so I had to lecture somebody on the phone and say, no, I did already pay that. Blah, blah, blah.

[00:38:56] Ramit: How long?

[00:38:58] Becca: 30 minutes total.

[00:39:00] Nikki: Total. Yeah.

[00:39:01] Ramit: I kind of love the toll road as an example. I love it because I can see some people are like, I will never pay for a toll road. And then other people are like, are you stupid? Of course, I'm paying for a toll road. My time is worth more than blah, blah, blah. It's like a classic, canonical example of people seeing money differently. Okay. Becca, when was the last time you paid for a toll road, by the way?

[00:39:23] Becca: I did do it once on some trip to the airport, but yeah, once I've done it intentionally.

[00:39:29] Ramit: Wow. Once in 30-plus years. Okay, got it.

[00:39:31] Becca: Yeah.

[00:39:32] Ramit: Okay. That's great. Nikki, you said you don't overthink spending, but you also delay sharing financial problems. Why?

[00:39:45] Nikki: I'm conflict avoidant.

[00:39:49] Ramit: Okay.

[00:39:50] Nikki: Yeah.

[00:39:52] Ramit: That's a good answer. I believe you. I think it's probably true. It also is incomplete.

[00:40:00] Nikki: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:01] Ramit: Because it's one thing to know what the problem is. It's entirely another to solve it. Like I can already see in so many examples you've shared how this avoidance shows up-- the student loans. It's one thing to know that you have a problem. Because most of us are not even problem aware when it comes to our own deep issues. But then sometimes you hear people who constantly talk about their own problems. They're like, oh yeah, I'm like, I'm this and that. And I'm kind of like, and?

[00:40:28] Nikki: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:29] Ramit: What's the solution? Because it's one thing to be problem aware, but that's not complete. Solution aware is what we were looking for. So we'll get there as well. And then I noticed this dynamic here, Becca, you track very, very carefully. Nikki, I'm guessing not so much.

[00:40:50] Nikki: No, I have had periods of that in the past. I'd say more my approach is stay as aware as I can about what I'm actually spending on. And then about once a month, I'll look at my statements and make sure that there aren't subscriptions that I've forgotten about, or fraudulent charges, things like that.

[00:41:14] Ramit: Nikki, in those monthly reviews, do you look at your investments?

[00:41:20] Nikki: Not monthly, maybe quarterly.

[00:41:22] Ramit: Oh, okay, good. What do you look at when you look at those?

[00:41:25] Nikki: I just look at the number. I just look at it and I'm like, okay, that's a number, and then don't do anything.

[00:41:32] Ramit: That's a number.

[00:41:32] Nikki: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:33] Ramit: Today we're really discovering like basically Americans relationships with personal finance, which is they just literally look at some numbers and they don't even make any meaning of it. They just go, that's a number. And that's essentially it. Is it good? Is it bad? Is it up? Is it don't know? It's a number.

[Narration]

[00:41:51] Ramit: When I hear it's a number, it gives me a big clue on what's going on. You know, most people log into their checking account, they see a number, and they stop right there. They don't really understand what that means. Is that good? Is that bad? How does that fit into my overall net worth? Does that mean that I can buy a mattress or a vacation? They don't know. They just see a number. Same thing with debt by the way. People see a number, and they go, oh, I don't know. That doesn't feel good. What should I do? They don't really understand what that debt means.

[00:42:24] Guys, we need to go from money to meaning. Like if I asked you, what does a million dollars mean to you? People be like, uh, they don't know. If you don't know what that number means, then what are you working for? Is that enough? What kind of lifestyle specifically will it get you? Like I always wanted to know from a young age, when do I have enough that I never have to look at the price When I go into a restaurant. I want to know the number that I want to know so that I never have to worry about flying business class or taking a two week or two-month vacation. I want to know not just a number, but I want to know the meaning.

[00:43:00] And what's interesting here is the contrast. Becca agonizes over small purchases like a $4 artichoke and the toll, which yes, they add up, but they are basically largely irrelevant to her overall financial health. And this is a very common pattern that happens. When someone is new to their financial journey like Becca, they often get overly focused on small questions and technicalities. Like I have a friend who was starting out their training and they were really, really, really focused on what is the best protein powder. I mean, it's kind of good to know, but it's not in the top 50 things that matter when you are starting out with your health. And this is what you see with experts, people who are long-term masters of something. They're not debating protein powder ingredients. They know that there are a few key things that really matter. Get to the gym consistently, train with intensity and track your progress. Eat right.

[00:43:54] Same thing with money. The toll road in the grand scheme of things does not really matter, an artichoke definitely doesn't matter. What really matters is having a true, clear, shared vision of a rich life, being able to talk about it regularly and then making sure you have a system that makes those decisions automatic. By the way, if you want to build that system so your money will flow automatically to where it needs to go, get a copy of my book, I will teach you to be Rich.

[00:44:22] When we come back from the break, I'm going to push them gently on their communication style.

[00:44:27] Becca, when Nikki had one, two multiple charges on the toll road, how did that make you feel that she had not brought that up earlier?

[00:44:40] Becca: I don't like it when Nikki doesn't bring these things to me. Maybe like a more impactful example was when Nikki said that she hadn't paid off her credit card in full because she didn't have the money for it. And I was like, well, what is going on? Why is that happening? I have the money. Never spend a dollar on interest.

[00:45:07] Ramit: Yeah. And then what happened?

[00:45:09] Becca: And then Nikki expressed, I think, some fear around bringing that up, or maybe it was avoidance of bringing that up to me because she didn't want to maybe burden me with it. But I was very much like, we are a team. I just feel like, giving money to like the credit card company or whatever, that's the last place we want to be giving dollars.

[00:45:37] Nikki: Part of it was that I hadn't even crunched numbers, again, looked at the number in my account and I felt like I might not have enough for rent, groceries, whatever. And the idea of asking Becca for money or asking her to cover 100% of groceries for a couple trips was scary. And also, I think there was some amount of pride wrapped up in it about failure to manage.

[00:46:11] And so instead of actually showing up to managing, I just continued to avoid. And then, yeah, we got to a point where I had to tell her for some reason. I don't remember why. And yeah, there was a moment of relief in hearing her say, we are on a team, and of course you can ask. And also shame for not showing up to my responsibilities.

[00:46:44] Ramit: Let me probe into that a little bit more because I think we're circling around something that is-- my antenna are going up. Nikki, you said that you don't have strong opinions about money, and you don't want Becca to feel like you are "coming for her money." Where does that fear come from?

[00:47:07] Nikki: What comes to mind is hearing sort of two things, parents paying alimony to their exes, kids who I perceived as really spoiled asking for money whenever they wanted to.

[00:47:31] Ramit: What's the punchline? You heard these things. They're bad. So you don't want to be them. Is that it?

[00:47:35] Nikki: So I don't want to be them. I want to be independent. I want to be responsible. I need to handle it myself.

[00:47:42] Ramit: Does that work?

[00:47:44] Nikki: No.

[00:47:44] Ramit: Okay. Why you keep doing it?

[00:47:48] Nikki: Because I'm a human.

[00:47:50] Ramit: Okay. That's a pretty good answer. That's actually the answer. Now, if it's just you, you could make it work for the rest of your life. Many people, they ignore money, they go into debt, they live with debt, et cetera. The problem is when you get married, you're now bringing someone else into your own personal issues.

[00:48:13] So right now we're talking about small amounts. Oh, I can't afford groceries this month. And it's not even that I can't afford it. It's that I feel I cannot afford it.

[00:48:24] . And we start to peel, why, why, why? It's like, oh, because some trust fund kids, when I was a kid, they annoyed me, and I don't want to be that. So I'm going to do it on my own, but then I'm going to incur credit card debt and then Becca's going to get mad.

[00:48:35] Nikki: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:36] Ramit: It's kind of like, not all this was necessary.

[00:48:39] Nikki: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:40] Ramit: So what do we do about it? I mean, we can say, Nikki, be better. Nikki, communicate more. And you should, you should communicate more. You should build those skills. But is there another way than expecting someone to completely change overnight? What do you both think?

[00:48:57] Becca: Small practices.

[00:48:58] Ramit: Yeah. Like what?

[00:49:00] Nikki: I think that bringing money dates back is a good idea.

[00:49:04] Ramit: Okay. I agree.

[00:49:06] Nikki: And I think that especially knowing my patterns and wanting to avoid or hide, it could be an interesting exercise to say out loud what I am spending on, or what I want to spend on potentially as an exercise to practice trusting Becca and then giving her the opportunity to respond in a way that hopefully is constructive and not scary because a lot of it is that I'm afraid of what she might say.

[00:49:44] Ramit: I love this. This is small habits, exactly what you said, Becca. Small habits, small steps, and one of those small steps can be, Nikki, you, leading off with the small step of here's what I'm spending on, here's what I want. And the two of you can decide, how do we both want to show up in this conversation. And you could be really honest.

[00:50:02] Nikki, you might say something like, I avoid money. I'm going to work really hard to speak up on our monthly meeting. Here are the categories I'm going to be like talking about. And you can even pre-fill out. This month, I'm nervous about dot, dot, dot. This month I spent over a hundred bucks on dot, dot, dot. You can start there.

[00:50:23] And then you can also say, Nikki, in the past I have been worried about feeling judged or feeling incompetent with money. And then Becca, you can say, I want us to be aligned, and I know that sometimes I can lose my temper around certain money topics. And what I want to do is I want us to be calm and connected. It's up to you to fill it out. I just gave you samples. Adapt it for your own needs. Make it your own language. How do you think that would go?

[00:51:05] Becca: I think it could go well. I think there's a part of me that's when we get into that money meeting spot, it is like, okay, well what are we doing here? What are we talking about here? What is important to cover? Am I in the leadership role because I'm the one who is maybe more excited about the money meeting to begin with?

[00:51:34] Ramit: Do you want to be?

[00:51:34] Becca: Not always.

[00:51:35] Ramit: Do you want to carry all the emotional load of money for the rest of your life?

[00:51:40] Becca: Absolutely not.

[00:51:41] Ramit: Okay, so then don't. Now I wonder if there's a book that shows you what to say in those money meetings down to the exact agenda. Anyone know of a book like that?

[00:51:56] Nikki: Hmm.

[00:51:57] Becca: We saw your PDFs in the special features.

[00:51:59] Ramit: Yeah. Use the agenda and then adapt it for yourself. And I totally get why you just said that, Becca, because sometimes when people have their first money meeting, it just feels like a grab bag where you are just basically launching missiles at the other person. Like, so what's up with this? Why are you spending on that?

[00:52:17] What about this? I'm worried about that. And it's like, oh [Bleep], this is not productive. That's why you can just borrow what I do and then start with that. And then you can adapt it for your own needs. Typically what I see is like three, four months after people have used my template, they start to adapt it for themselves. That's perfect. It's like taking a recipe. You start with the recipe, just copy it straight out of the book, make it, and then over time you're like, ah, I like a little more salt, et cetera. Okay. That's how you do it.

[00:52:50] Becca: Thank you.

[00:52:50] Ramit: If you were to get the opportunity to create a shared vision with you and Nikki, what would it look and feel like to you? Becca?

[00:52:59] Becca: It feels like in like a really physical and practical way, we are becoming a team like a unified force where we're making those decisions about how we want to live our life and where we want to put our money, like now actually has to come through us, which is really beautiful thing versus through me or through you.

[00:53:28] Ramit: Hmm. Okay. I love that. Nikki, can I ask you the same question?

[00:53:35] Nikki: Yeah, it feels much closer to that for me. And I think it's because I had to see each of my parents just rough it on their own forever. And getting up to 100k by themselves seemed impossible as far as like the numbers that I knew. And so to know that we're already making 100k together and we're not even close to where want to be is encouraging.

[00:54:08] And a big part of our relationship is based in dreaming. And so yeah, can we shift our mindset to applying our money to our dreams in a real tangible way? And even in deciding to get married, for me it's been a process of realizing the freedom in the commit. Like I don't have to worry about finding my person ever again. Like this is it. Okay, what else opens up? And that can be [Bleep] exciting.

[00:54:43] Ramit: I love that. What a beautiful way of putting it? The freedom is in the commitment. It's so beautiful. We see the same in so many things, whether it be relationship of any sort, whether it be in children, whether it be in money, even creating a number. Oh my gosh, we're going to keep our fixed costs at this number.

[00:55:04] All that can feel restrictive the first time you hear it, but actually it gives us a lot of freedom because all we got to do is hit that number and we get the creativity to figure out how. Amazing. Let's do it together. That's so beautiful. You mentioned that you both like to dream. Can we just do it right now? I'd love to hear what your  Rich Life is. Nikki, go ahead.

[00:55:28] Nikki: Aw. Okay, I'll try to be specific. My  Rich Life is owning a beautiful, say, three-bedroom home that has enough room for a yard to host our friends and have a big abundant garden. My  Rich Life is to travel abroad twice a year. Okay, I'll choose two places. I want to go to Thailand, and I want to go to France. And three times a year, trips within the US or within the state that we're living in.

[00:56:21] So I want to go to the Northwest, and I want to go to New York. And I want to go on a river trip just like we did last weekend, and I want to go on a backpacking trip. So these are my travel  Rich Life pieces.

[00:56:45] I want to be able to spend what I need on my health so that I can feel great. That means supplements, naturopath, personal trainer. I want to spend what I need to at the grocery store so that I can eat well and buy organic. And I want to buy some nice clothing a couple of times a year.

[00:57:17] Ramit: Beautiful. Very specific. Very intentional. I get a vision of who you are by what you just told me. It's really quite illuminating for me. I feel like I just went from seeing somebody drawn in black and white to seeing somebody in color. That's a really beautiful thing when people describe their  Rich Life to me.

[00:57:37] Also, most of what you told me sounds reasonable, aspirational, nothing crazy. All things I go, "Okay, that might take some time." That might need a little bit of luck, but I could see all of those things happening at some point. So thank you for taking me into your   Rich Life. Becca, same question for you.

[00:58:03] Becca: Definitely some similarities, but yeah, I'll go from my own vision. Our friends have always had a vision of living on land together, but in our own separate houses. And so if I'm dreaming, my  Rich Life is to have that house that Nikki's talking about within walking distance of at least a few of our closest friends.

[00:58:32] And that garden being a forest garden with fruit trees and berry bushes that you can walk through and find places to sit and just eat out of the garden. I want to take four specific types of trips per year-- a ski trip in the winter, a extended climbing trip somewhere new every year for a mission, a river trip like we just did, and a backpacking trip.

[00:59:10] And I want to go on a month-long climbing trip in Europe. I want to have a full month to go and explore the Dolomites and the South of France and just all these incredible places, the Verdon Gorge. And I want that to be able to be coupled with the work that I do so that it can come together. I started running international trips a couple of years ago and starting to pair those so I can seamlessly weave that all together.

[00:59:43] My  Rich Life involves hosting friends and creating our community instead of being part of other communities while that's still great. What is our community? At this point, we don't plan to have kids, so I want us to be like this summer camp feeling for our nieces and nephews that we can take them on adventures together and create experiences and have this connection, growing up with these kids and being role models and support figures for them.

[01:00:23] Ramit: Beautiful. Another beautiful example. I totally get the vision. Walking through berry patches, being the summer camp for your family, having your community, living close by to friends, and then traveling. It's awesome. I have one more question about   Rich Life because as I was listening to both these, I thought to myself, I love these, and also, what about the joint  Rich Life? What about the two of you specifically together? What does that look like?

[01:00:56] Nikki: A lot of it is building the things like the summer camp and the forest garden and going on these trips together. But I think also that comes into play a little bit in our entrepreneurship individually and also how they come together.

[01:01:14] Ramit: Mm-hmm.

[01:01:16] Nikki: We work in this wellness tech startup together, and it's something that we're really excited about. And Becca is a guide and leads international trips, and she's bringing me on to help with that. And I am, outside of this job, pursuing postpartum doulaship. And so there's really a lot of ways in which all three of these things can dovetail. And so I think it can be a little bit about like, how can we brainstorm and dream up something brand new that culminates our skills and talents and visions to create a really cool life?

[01:02:05] Ramit: Yeah. Becca.

[01:02:08] Becca: Yeah, same page. I know a lot of couples are like, "Ah, I don't want to work with my partner. It's too much." But I've always wanted that collaborative, work together, build together, dream together vision. And I think that we have a lot of potential for it with our balanced skill sets and both wanting to be drawn towards entrepreneurship. It's just finding the way through.

[01:02:38] Nikki: And I do think that's possible based on what we're setting up in our individual endeavors and being part of this startup. Every cool thing starts as a startup, and we're in the five person team beginning it, and I really believe in it. So it's like that could be something really cool in five years.

[01:03:00] Ramit: Okay. What about you being confident about money, Nikki?

[01:03:07] Nikki: I like to feel confident and educated and feel like I have my [Bleep] together within the year.

[01:03:16] Ramit: Now that is a great answer. Love that. I agree with you. I think that's so cool. I love how aggressive you're being. So in order to live the  Rich Life that you want to live, I want you to tell me what kind of changes you would make. Before we get into moving numbers around and all kinds of nuts and bolts, just from a high level, hands off the keyboard, what would you change at a high level about your current spending? Let's go. Nikki first.

[01:03:52] Nikki: I would see where we could tighten up on fixed costs.

[01:03:57] Ramit: You'd bring this number of 69% to approximately what?

[01:04:00] Nikki: See if we can bring it to 60.

[01:04:03] Ramit: Okay, great. So you'd try to get it to 60, and then?

[01:04:06] Nikki: And then bring up savings and investments.

[01:04:10] Ramit: You would basically cut your fixed costs. You would increase your investments in savings. Is that it?

[01:04:16] Nikki: That's all I can think of.

[01:04:18] Ramit: Okay, cool. Becca, what about you?

[01:04:22] Becca: Yeah. Increased income would be the first thing, which would give us the room to have lower fixed costs, higher investments, and more guilt-free spending.

[01:04:35] Ramit: Let's do the easy stuff first. So fixed costs. Let's just see if we can bring these numbers down a little bit. We're at 69%. Aim is to get it to 60. Let's see what we got here. You got your rent and mortgage, is 2000 bucks. That seems pretty reasonable from where you are and all that?

[01:04:52] Becca: It's about as cheap as it gets for what we're doing.

[01:04:55] Ramit: All right. So we're not going to change that, but just out of curiosity, you're at about 24% which is below the recommended 28%. That's great. Don't change a thing. Insurance, 441. All right. Make a phone call or two. See if you can cut your insurance, but probably not. All right. Your car payment, you got the Subaru. Anything else?

[01:05:20] Becca: I have a Honda element.

[01:05:22] Nikki: Yeah, and we own both of them.

[01:05:24] Ramit: Cool. It's good you own them. All right. Debt payments are at 50. You better hope. Latest news indicates that they're going to start making people repay loans aggressively, even garnishing wages this summer. So we need to build some buffer. Who knows what's going to happen, but we need to always plan for the worst. Groceries at 700. What can that number be cut to, if necessary?

[01:05:51] Nikki: Five.

[01:05:52] Ramit: 500?

[01:05:54] Becca: Yeah.

[01:05:55] Ramit: Okay. All right. Let's do that. Who does the grocery shopping? Both?

[01:06:01] Becca: I do it most of the time, but we both do it.

[01:06:03] Ramit: Do you look at prices?

[01:06:06] Becca: That's one place where I've started to give myself a little bit more freedom, but I do look at prices, and we got a Costco membership, so we try and get essentials that we can there. But I also think that does create a little bit more cost because it's like, well, now we're buying this bulk item.

[01:06:29] Ramit: Yeah. Wait. But you're using it over time, right?

[01:06:32] Becca: Yeah. Yeah, we are.

[01:06:35] Ramit: Okay. If you tell me you can cut it to 500, I believe you. Clothes at 82 bucks a month.

[01:06:40] Nikki: I think that was generous. We don't spend that much on clothes.

[01:06:45] Ramit: How much you want to take it to?

[01:06:48] Nikki: A month? 20.

[01:06:49] Ramit: 20 bucks a month. All right. Look at the numbers. We're at 65% right now. Definitely trending in the right direction. I would really love to see this number at 63, but 65, okay. There's nothing very unreasonable here. I also want to take into account a couple of other things. You have roughly three months of an emergency fund. Not bad. Not bad.

[01:07:19] And you also have, in your 30s, $53,000 of investments. We're going to find out what that means in a second, but you have clearly shown that you can invest and save. So that part is great. And then your guilt-free spending is now at 20% because we cut some costs. They just flowed right down to the bottom.

[01:07:45] We cut your groceries and whatever else we cut with clothes, and that saved like a couple of hundred bucks a month or something like that. That money just flowed right down here to guilt-free.

[01:07:57] Nikki: Yeah.

[01:07:57] Ramit: So now we have to decide, oh, we have a few hundred bucks extra per month. What do I want to do with it? This is a common thing you're going to discover. Wow. Look at Becca getting so excited. She just sat up straight. She took a deep breath. She's like, "I've been waiting my whole [Bleep] life for this. Yes, Becca. It's actually happening. So what do you want to do with the extra money?

[01:08:18] Nikki: Invest it.

[01:08:19] Ramit: Okay. Nikki says, invest it. Becca?

[01:08:21] Becca: Invest it.

[01:08:22] Ramit: Wow. Cool. All right. That was easy. Do y'all know how much money you're going to have in the future? Has anyone run a calculation?

[01:08:32] Becca: I've definitely played with those investment calculators or those retirement calculator things quite a bit, but I don't remember a lot.

[01:08:43] Ramit: Shall we just do it right now? We'll use my calculator. So everybody can just go search Ramit Calculator. I'm going to put this up on screen here, and let's plug it in, huh? All right, so what amount are we starting with? 53,000 bucks. How much do you add? Monthly, you currently add 583 bucks.

[01:09:03] Becca: It's basically just maxing out the Roth IRA, which is seven grand a year at this point.

[01:09:09] Ramit: That's good. How many years are you going to keep investing? What's the answer?

[01:09:15] Becca: 35.

[01:09:17] Ramit: 35. Great. Cool. What does the number say?

[01:09:22] Becca: $1,669,540.

[01:09:28] Ramit: What do you think about that?

[01:09:31] Becca: That's cool to have a million dollars, and that's not enough to live off of for the remainder of life.

[01:09:38] Ramit: Okay. Nikki, what do you think about the number, $1.6 million?

[01:09:43] Nikki: Agreed. Yeah. Of course, it's cool to see 1 million and--

[01:09:50] Ramit: 1.6. Why does everybody keep saying 1 million? That's a lot of money.

[01:09:54] Becca: It is. It actually cool. Only by a single person maxing out a Roth IRA for 35 years that it turns into that, that is very cool.

[01:10:04] Nikki: And a million isn't as much as it used to be.

[01:10:08] Ramit: Oh God. Not this again. This already includes inflation. So this is--

[01:10:15] Nikki: Oh, it already does.

[01:10:16] Ramit: Yes, I always include inflation. You know what? Let me show you. Because I get these freaking inflation truthers on my comments every single goddamn day of my life.

[01:10:24] Becca: Tell them, Ramit.

[01:10:25] Ramit: Let me just show you how much you would actually have in the bank. This is actually quite interesting. So notice here on the Ramit investment calculator, I chose 7% for your annual return rate. That's because you usually, on average, over time, get 10% per year, minus 3% per year of inflation. Equals 7%. I'm simplifying. Watch this. This is how much you would actually see in your bank account. Watch this. Instead of seven, I'm going to make it 10. Holy [Bleep]. What's that number?

[01:10:54] Becca: That's a lot. 3,970,802.

[01:10:59] Nikki: Almost 4 million.

[01:11:00] Ramit: Almost $4 million. I don't think people on this podcast understand what this actually means.

[01:11:06] Becca: That's crazy.

[01:11:06] Ramit: This is shocking.

[01:11:07] Nikki: I don't understand what that means.

[01:11:08] Ramit: Okay, so let me explain, because initially I just told you like you're going to have 1.6 million. Everyone's depressed on this call, and they're like, "Oh, we could do better." But it actually turns out, if you were to look in your bank account, you would have 3.9 million.

[01:11:23] Here's the way to understand it. If you go to your parents and ask them like, "How much did it cost to buy a car when you were a kid?" And they'll tell you they bought a car for 50 cents. [Bleep], they took a dollar, they got change back, and they got a brand new car. It's ridiculous. Inflation. Okay? For many things, prices go up. Not everything, but many things. In the same way, by the time you are 65, $3.9 million will not be worth as much as it is today. That's why I always inflation adjust. So $1.6 million in today's money, you know how much that's worth because you understand it's today's dollars. Tomorrow's dollars, that 1.6 would be 3.9 million. That's shocking, right?

[01:12:08] Nikki: Yeah, yeah.

[01:12:09] Ramit: Okay, so this is helpful to hear because I don't want to mislead anybody. I don't want to tell you, oh, you're going to have almost $4 million in your account. You're like, "I'm [Bleep] loaded." But actually, that money is worth far less. That's the way the dollar works currently. We need inflation to some extent. So you're going to have roughly $4 million in your account, but it's going to be worth the equivalent of $1.6 million today. Becca, you look concerned.

[01:12:35] Becca: I'm just like, is inflation just going to continue increasing? Is everything just going to keep getting more and more expensive? At some point there has to be like an end to that, right?

[01:12:48] Ramit: Maybe it gets into a bit of a larger macro discussion, but you don't want the opposite of inflation, which is deflation.

[01:12:55] Becca: Yeah, no. Yeah.

[01:12:56] Ramit: Okay? That's the way inflation works. And that is why I always show you the real return, 7%, not 10%. Because I don't want to mislead you. I want to show you the honest value of the money you're going to have. All right. So back to the numbers. You're going to have $1.6 million, which is approximately $66,000 or so of spending money per year if we do the 4% rule. I don't think y'all want to live on $66,000 in today's money. You wouldn't be able to do it. So what do we want to do? Want to put some more money aside?

[01:13:35] Nikki: Yeah.

[01:13:36] Ramit: Let's invest that. All right. How much extra do we want to invest?

[01:13:42] Becca: I think the first thing is starting with maxing out Nikki's Roth IRA.

[01:13:47] Nikki: Yeah.

[01:13:49] Ramit: So if we're at 583 a month and that takes us to $1.6 million, what if we put in 700 a month? Basically 120 bucks more. Let's just see. That doesn't sound like that much, right?

[01:14:01] Nikki: Mm-hmm. Okay. You got your process.

[01:14:05] Ramit: Watch this.

[01:14:06] Becca: Okay.

[01:14:07] Ramit: Oh, just 120 bucks more means I have $1.88 million. Do you see how that 120 bucks, which you'll never even notice, adds up to hundreds of thousands of dollars? Let's even go just a little bit further. How about 800 bucks a month? Oh my God, we're now at $2 million. What do you notice?

[01:14:26] Becca: A little goes a long way.

[01:14:27] Ramit: Yeah, yeah. Do you see why things like cutting 100 bucks on groceries, if you can still get the things you want? That's part one. And then part two is instantly redirecting that money automatically to investments. That really adds up.

[01:14:46] Okay. We're at 2 million bucks. I think what you've seen is there are ways right now to dramatically increase the amount you have down the road. It's not complicated. It's literally just taking money right now, investing it, boom.

[Narration]

[01:14:57] Ramit: I remember once posting on Twitter that lots of people think that wealthy people have access to these secret investments that outperform the market, and that's just not true. And people were [Bleep]. They refused to believe it. I got thousands of angry comments. But I happened to be right.

[01:15:14] Because while it is true that wealthy people have access to a lot more investments, most of those investments are [Bleep], and they underperform a simple Vanguard S&P 500 index fund, which any of us have access to right now. But the truth is, especially for Americans, it's so much more comforting to hear that there are secret investments you don't have access to, a conspiracy which explains why you're not wealthy.

[01:15:37] Well, reality is often much more mundane. People who are wealthy tend to have higher incomes. They tend to be older. They tend to have invested a lot more for a lot more time. And as you just saw, the real wins when it comes to money often come from boring math. Take a look. They cut a couple of hundred dollars from groceries and clothes, nothing extreme. Instantly that money can be redirected into investments. That small change is the difference between 1.6 million and 2 million over time.

[01:16:06] Now, Let me give you another truth. The median household income in America is around $80,000. Becca and Nikki, they're already above that, but if they want the kind of life they just described, the house with a garden, the four to six trips a year, they can't really get there on this income.

[01:16:23] It doesn't matter how much they cut back on groceries. The math simply doesn't work. If you want that kind of life, you have to earn more, a lot more, and redirect a significant chunk of it into investments. And we haven't even tackled Nikki's debt yet, which we're about to get into.

[Interview]

[01:16:40] Ramit: Nikki, can we talk about your debt real quick? So I'm going to put this up on screen, debt payoff, because I'd like to just create a quick plan here. Your current debt is how much, again?

[01:16:49] Nikki: 18,000.

[01:16:50] Ramit: 18,000. I know you're not paying it right now, but what is the interest rate? Do you know?

[01:16:55] Nikki: I don't know.

[01:16:57] Ramit: It's probably seven or more.

[01:16:59] Nikki: I was going to say seven. Yeah.

[01:17:00] Ramit: Yeah, let's just say that. How much are you paying towards debt? Zero, right?

[01:17:04] Nikki: Mm-hmm.

[01:17:06] Ramit: That doesn't work for my calculation, so I'm just going to say 50. All right. That's never going to get paid off, so let's try 100. Also never going to get paid off. Let's try 250. Okay. That's going to take you almost eight years to pay off.

[01:17:24] Nikki: Mm-hmm.

[01:17:25] Ramit: I don't love that. I don't love that. Can we just pump-- let's just see what happens just for kicks. 500 bucks a month, yeah. So three and a half years to pay this off. I'm not saying you have to pay 500 bucks a month towards this. But I am showing you-- Nikki, what are you taking away from this example where if you pay 500 bucks a month, you it off in three and a half years. What does that tell you?

[01:17:50] Nikki: It tells me that if I can allocate things strategically, it opens up freedom sooner.

[01:18:02] Ramit: Exactly. Three and a half years is not a long time. You're so young. To be able to be debt free and to pay it off and then to be able to take that money and invest it, amazing. Here's what it also tells me. All of this good stuff is downstream of the two of you increasing your income. Right now you can't afford to do this.

[01:18:22] You can't really afford to do close to this. But if the two of you are united connected, you both have a mission of increasing your income. Maybe one of you does it a little sooner than the other. It doesn't matter. You're a team. That extra income starts coming in, and you jointly decide how you want to allocate it. Oh my God. You can start investing.

[01:18:44] You can get debt-free pretty quickly. You can build more savings for a down payment if you eventually want that house that you talked about. There's so many things you can do, but it all is contingent on increasing your earnings.

[01:18:57] Nikki: Mm-hmm.

[01:18:59] Ramit: Do you think that you could both do higher than this?

[01:19:02] Nikki: Yeah.

[01:19:03] Ramit: Okay.

[01:19:03] Nikki: I could.

[01:19:04] Ramit: Okay. Love that. How long?

[01:19:08] Nikki: How long until I can make more?

[01:19:10] Ramit: Yeah.

[01:19:12] Nikki: Based on current trajectory, in two months.

[01:19:22] Ramit: Really?

[01:19:23] Nikki: Yeah.

[01:19:24] Ramit: How much is it going to go up?

[01:19:26] Nikki: It'll go up by potentially $2,000 a month.

[01:19:32] Ramit: That's a lot.

[01:19:33] Becca: That's if Nikki is able to acquire a new postpartum doula client monthly.

[01:19:38] Ramit: Ah.

[01:19:39] Nikki: Yeah.

[01:19:40] Becca: Which is definitely possible.

[01:19:42] Ramit: So Nikki, you're doing the postpartum doula business. Becca, you have your climbing business. How did you learn how to do a business?

[01:19:52] Becca: Just by doing it.

[01:19:56] Nikki: Yeah. That's a good question.

[01:19:58] Ramit: Okay. Can I give you both a gift?

[01:20:01] Becca: Yes.

[01:20:02] Ramit: Okay. I'm going to give you a gift to my earn Earnable program.

[01:20:05] Becca: You're so generous, Ramit. Thank you.

[01:20:08] Ramit: It's my pleasure. I want the two of you to do it. I think that you businesses are great. I think that you've taken it a long way on your own. But I think that learning how to refine your idea, focus on who you are serving. You're not serving everybody, just the right people. And then learning exactly what to say, when to say it, how to structure a sales call, how to charge people appropriately.

[01:20:34] Becca, I suspect people will pay you a lot more. Because if I came to you right now and I wanted to learn how to climb and you charged me 300 bucks for a half day, I'd be like, "What the [Bleep]? That's it." It makes no sense for me. So I think that the two of you can dramatically increase your income. How do you feel about that?

[01:20:52] Nikki: I think we're both crying.

[01:20:54] Becca: Yeah.

[01:20:57] Nikki: Yeah. Because something like that doesn't fit into our CSP right now, and we know that if we can learn more, then that's where we can move the dial.

[01:21:10] Ramit: Yeah. Well, I'm grateful to be able to share it with you and to see you in the live program where I can help you with your exact questions. I actually think the two of you have come a long way from the way you grew up with money. And I can tell you've worked. You are really working.

[01:21:27] I don't give Earnable to everybody. It's a very expensive program. It's for people who are ready. The two of you are ready. I know you're going to take it seriously. So I'm going to see you in the program. I'm going to help you out, and I'm going to see your businesses grow.

[01:21:40] Becca: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much.

[01:21:44] Nikki: So much.

[01:21:44] Becca: It really means a lot.

[01:21:46] Ramit: Can I show you how it's going to affect your finances?

[01:21:51] Nikki: Oh yeah.

[01:21:51] Ramit: I'm going to show you how you can really visualize what this change would make on your life. Okay, watch this. So we go back over to our calculator. Again, anyone can access this calculator. Just search for Ramit Calculators. And we say, instead of-- right now, you're at 2 million bucks by the time you retire. You're putting 800 bucks a month in your investments, which you can actually do today. Let's make it 2,800. Watch what happens at this math. What's that number?

[01:22:27] Nikki: 5.66 million.

[01:22:30] Ramit: 5 million bucks. Now, can I just be honest with you? I don't even think you need 5 million bucks. I don't think you need it. I think you should take some of that money and spend it on cool stuff. You should put some of it in savings and get a nice garden. You should put a down payment at a certain point, spend some of that money for the things you love.

[01:22:48] Because you told me what your  Rich Life is. Your  Rich Life is not to be 65 or 70 years old and have $5.6 or $6 million. It's to live the  Rich Life today and a richer life tomorrow. But what are you seeing from the example that I just showed you?

[01:23:04] Nikki: That if we can bring our income up even just a little bit, it makes such a world of difference.

[01:23:12] Ramit: Yes, yes.

[01:23:14] Nikki: That's where Becca's control comes in. And so, yeah, can we redirect that energy?

[01:23:22] Ramit: Can we focus on both of us as a team, increasing our household income? And if we can focus on that, which is that 30,000-dollar, million-dollar question, then we actually don't even need to talk about or argue about toll roads. Becca, I notice you're crying over there. I just want to check in with you. What's going on?

[01:23:51] Becca: Yeah, I think l've listened to pretty much all your podcasts, your book, listened to all these other podcasts, and it's like I can listen, and I can hear and try and visualize how this might apply to me, but then just feeling your support towards us and seeing like what a specific manageable number allocated to those investments can become.

[01:24:23] Now look, you're okay. You're going to be okay. And I'm just feeling, yeah, really, really grateful for you and the generosity that you give out just by having this podcast and offering your wisdom and your gifts and your knowledge out to people like us. It means a lot, and it's really, really beautiful thing that you're doing, and I'm just really grateful for you.

[01:24:55] Ramit: Thank you very much. I really appreciate that. I have a lot of confidence that two of you are going to be able to do it. I have no doubt, actually. I know it's going to happen. So we're going to talk more in Earnable. It's going to be my pleasure to watch your businesses both grow and then to see, not just the money come to the CSP, that part's cool, but to see it flow into your  Rich Life. That part is the best of all.

[Narration]

[01:25:20] Ramit: I want to thank Becca and Nikki for sharing their story with me today. They came in with very strong opinions about groceries and toll roads, but as we talked, you could see their focus shift to something much bigger. They painted this beautiful vision of a  Rich Life with a home and a garden and friends living nearby, and all these different types of trips.

[01:25:38] It was specific, it was intentional, and most importantly, it was their   Rich Life. That is an amazing place to start because once you know what you want your life to look like, it becomes a lot easier to create the systems that will get you there.

[01:25:56] Please don't skip this step. It's so tempting to jump into cutting back on lattes or telling yourself, "I got to be better with money." But if you don't actually have a clear vision, if you don't understand, not just money, but the meaning of that money, it's like getting into a car and driving without having any destination. You have no idea where you're going.

[01:26:17] Becca and Nikki have a destination. Now the work is mapping that route. If you are struggling to design your own  Rich Life, if you are not even sure what you want in your  Rich Life, I put together a free guide to help you. You'll get answers quickly, and you can download it for free at iwt.com/ richlife. Now let's check out their follow-ups.

[01:26:43] Becca: Hey, Ramit. I just wanted to share the action items that I just completed after our money meeting. I went on the calculator, and I found out that we need to have about $3 million in retirement to feel good. And to get there, we just have to basically invest an extra $1,000 a month more than our Roth IRAs maxing out, which is honestly not that bad.

[01:27:12] And I automated my credit card payment, which I can't do biweekly, which is annoying, but at least it's monthly and automated. And I automated my deposits into Vanguard and my investments

[01:27:26] Nikki: Hi, everyone.

[01:27:27] Becca: Hi, everyone. Thanks again so much for taking the time to have us on the podcast.

[01:27:31] Nikki: It was awesome.

[01:27:32] Becca: Really appreciate it.

[01:27:34] Nikki: All right. So surprises, takeaways and changes. First surprise was my own motivation and excitement after the podcast. It's carrying over, which is great. And with just a little more strategy and even just a little more income, we're going to be totally fine in retirement. And that is just a major relief.

[01:27:57] Becca: I was surprised by how at ease I felt in actually envisioning our finances being combined rather than the fear that and uncertainty that I normally feel around that. And yeah, Ramit's belief in us.

[01:28:10] Even though our big  Rich Life feels like a fantasy at this point, and I would like to focus on a more immediate   Rich Life, it did feel like, Ramit, you were able to really say, "Yeah, you can do this. With an increased income and doing things strategically, this is actually possible." And that feels really good to hear.

[01:28:32] Nikki: All right, takeaways. The first for me is that the plans that I have are worthwhile, and I just need to put my head down. The second is that it's really important for me to hold my own in finances. I already knew that, but this was a good wake-up call. And the third takeaway for me is that with the right guidance, anything can be demystified.

[01:28:55] Becca: My main takeaways is in the power of going from A to B instead of just trying to get to the end result, which I'm very oriented around and seeing the value in just small steps along the way. The rules, not just investing spontaneously and having very clear rules is something that I'm really excited to implement, and the automation to it all.

[01:29:21] And now that I'm actually making money, I can really implement those rules or create rules to implement. And I think another takeaway is I'm not gaining much by just not spending the money unless I'm strategically reallocating that money into investments or some special account. So yeah, it's nice to not pay the tolls, but unless we're taking that toll money and putting it somewhere, then might as well just pay the toll and feel less stress.

[01:29:55] Nikki: The plans that we do have to change are reallocating funds, like Becca said, setting up automation so things aren't random, and we can just set it and forget it. Some changes I've already made is starting to network in the doula industry, setting up meetings, and I am meeting my first prospective clients next week.

[01:30:18] Becca: Yeah, I'm excited we're about to have our money meeting, and so I'm excited to start to create these rules for myself. We've got your journal. It's empty right now, but we're going to start to fill it in. And we started to look into the details of the Earnable program, and we're really excited to see how that can support us building some businesses and further income for ourselves so that we can relax a little and build some more trust in reality in the future.

[01:30:45] Nikki: Really, really excited about that.

[01:30:47] Becca: Yeah. Thank you so much.

[01:30:48] Hello, Ramit and team. It's Becca here coming in with an update. Thanks so much again for having us on the show and for gifting us with Earnable. We have started it, and so far it's definitely just helping me feel encouraged that there is an option for another stream of revenue.

[01:31:10] Becca: And it's really exciting to have some support and guidance and community and a course to follow to get there. So thank you so much for that. Since the podcast, we've had two money meetings, and in them, we've come up with some rules for ourselves as a couple and for ourselves individually.

[01:31:32] Our couple rules are that in order to try and minimize our Venmo-ing back and forth, we won't split things unless they're over $60. I felt a lot more about how I want to spend money and where does spending money feel good, and that has been a fun inquiry. I feel like this past month I've done a much better job at feeling good about spending money at eating out. We treated our friend to some meals as he showed us around Portland on a trip, and that felt really good.

[01:32:22] I did make more money this month than I pretty much ever have, so that definitely helps me feel good about spending money. But it is nice to just feel that. And I've also inquired about where I got my money mindset from. I do think that that has an impact on the way that I am oriented around money. So just more reflection and learning more about my relationship with money.

[01:32:46] And it's been great to be able to have more conversations with Nikki about it and to learn how she can learn better in bite-sized pieces, and just taking it slow so that she can feel empowered and not overwhelmed and shut down.

[01:33:05] Nikki: Becca and I have had a couple of money dates. I've done some things on my own. I reworked some numbers in the CSP, particularly because I needed to start investing again into retirement. And the second thing is that one big, beautiful bill brought student loans back into my life. They were paused for a little while, which was really nice, especially during some financial strain.

[01:33:35] I wouldn't say that I have more money than before. But thanks to the CSP, I feel really clear about being able to work the numbers out month to month to be able to afford it in a realistic way. And sure, I'll be tight on my guilt-free spending, but that's how it goes.

[01:33:59] Another thing that I learned is that I really do need to do money dates and anything related to money in bite-sized pieces. And that's for two reasons. One is, as a slightly avoidant type, I can get really overwhelmed. And as I'm building my confidence and financial literacy, I think doing it in smaller doses is what is going to set me up for success.

[01:34:30] Because when I do too much, when we are going for too long, I can get overwhelmed, and I can get emotional. And then the other thing is that I have trouble with numbers. A professor in college once said that she was picking up on some symptoms of dyscalculia, which is like dyslexia for numbers.

[01:34:52] And so when I have a bunch of accounts open, I get confused and I can make small mistakes. So it's like, do one thing at a time, do it 15 minutes at a time, and you'll do great. All right. Thanks.