Episode 216. I track every penny. He gambles. Should I marry him?

Taylor (29) is a high-earning dentist with a strict savings plan and deep-rooted fears about financial instability. Hayden (25) earns $24K a year, has a history of gambling and financial dishonesty, and struggles with budgeting. They live together, but their vastly different money philosophies leave Taylor questioning whether marriage is possible. With trust issues, income imbalance, and emotional baggage on both sides, can they find common ground—or is it time to walk away?

In this episode we uncover:

• Taylor’s strict financial boundaries—and why Hayden feels constantly judged by them
• The real reason Hayden hides purchases (and what it’s costing their relationship)
• Why Taylor resents being the financial provider, and how it’s creating a growing power imbalance
• A candid conversation about Hayden’s past gambling—and whether trust can be rebuilt
• How their radically different upbringings shaped two completely opposing money mindsets
• The unspoken tension around engagement—and what’s holding Taylor back from proposing
• Taylor’s biggest fear: ending up broke and alone
• Hayden opens up about insecurity, dependence, and feeling “less than”
• What they really want from each other—and why neither feels safe enough to ask

Chapters:

(00:00:00) “He gets to do whatever he wants with his money”

(00:07:22) Ramit breaks down their numbers

(00:19:37) “Why have all that money if you don’t plan to spend it?”

(00:27:06) How childhood trauma shaped their views on money, control, and survival

(00:36:22) A secret $35K loss—and the fallout that nearly ended everything

(00:47:39) “Most of what I do with money is to get her off my back”

(00:59:29) Is change still real if it’s only for someone else?

(01:11:52) A new plan, a new mindset—but will it stick?

(01:17:58) Where are they now? Taylor and Hayden’s follow-ups

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Links mentioned in this episode 

Get my 4 simple rules for talking with your partner about money

Transcript 

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[00:00:05] Ramit: Do you trust Hayden with money?

[00:00:06] Taylor: Not my money.

[00:00:08] Hayden: I got into it really bad. Definitely became a habit, an addiction.

[00:00:13] Taylor: I find out he blew $40,000 and wasn't paying me [Bleep], wasn't offering me a dime.

[00:00:20] Hayden: Most of the things that I do with money is just to get Taylor off my back.

[00:00:25] Taylor: I was devastated because I never wanted to feel like a man was just living off of me.

[00:00:31] Ramit: Where did you go from there? It seems like it would be really tough to recover from.

[00:00:35] Taylor: I think in a way we're still recovering from it.

[00:00:38] Ramit: And out of curiosity, how much of that type of thinking do you do with your own money?

[00:00:43] Hayden: I don't do any of that. Money comes in and it goes right out.

[00:00:48] Taylor: I want this to work so badly.

[Narration]

[00:00:50] Ramit: Today I'm speaking with Taylor and Hayden. Taylor's 29. Hayden is 25. Listen to what Taylor wrote on her application. "I cannot seem to get over the fact that he will not track his money and be financially responsible. We want to get married sometime in the next two years, but money issues is one of the reasons that we haven't gotten engaged yet. I'm scared of what our future could look like if he doesn't get a hold of his spending or start budgeting. It's very serious to me, but doesn't seem very serious for my partner."

[00:01:26] When she uses words like scared, serious, and responsible, those are not casual words. She's really asking if she can trust her partner with her future. Let's take a look now at their conscious spending plan. You can download your own for free at iwt.com/csp so you can know your four key numbers.

[00:01:48] Together they earn nearly $200,000 per year. Taylor brings in $14,614 a month. Hayden earns $2,000 a month, and it is a source of real tension in their relationship. Taylor's side of the CSP is pretty clean. Fixed cost, 42%. Savings, 11. Investments, 11. Guilt-free spending, 36. No notes. Little high on  guilt-free spending, but okay.

[00:02:16] Keep in mind, they are not married yet, so they keep their finances separate. And on Hayden's side, we see things are a different story. Fixed costs, 67%. Savings, 51%. Investments, 5%. Guilt-free spending, negative 23%. Very confusing. I have a lot of questions. So let's meet Taylor and Hayden.

[Interview]

[00:02:37] Ramit: Can I just ask you guys in plain English-- it took a lot of work for you to get here-- what do you guys want to get out of this? What do you really want to get out of this?

[00:02:44] Hayden: I want Taylor to feel more comfortable being in a relationship with me.

[00:02:52] Taylor: I want to feel like I can trust Hayden, especially financially.

[00:02:56] Ramit: Do you trust Hayden with money?

[00:02:59] Taylor: Not my money.

[00:03:01] Ramit: Hmm. Why not?

[00:03:04] Taylor: I like to use my money very responsibly. I like to save. And that is just not what Hayden likes to do. And so I think that makes me nervous.

[00:03:13] Ramit: How long have you been feeling nervous about Hayden's relationship with money?

[00:03:20] Taylor: Realistically since we got together, but not enough to feel like I have any say until we moved in together.

[00:03:27] Ramit: Hayden, do you trust Taylor with money?

[00:03:30] Hayden: She's so tight with her money. She's very responsible with her money. She's never given me a reason not to trust her.

[00:03:36] Ramit: Okay. Is tight the same thing as responsible with money to you?

[00:03:43] Hayden: To me, no. Me and her do disagree on that. I do think she's tight with her money in sometimes an irrational way, but at the same time, it's hard to say that she's not also responsible with the money.

[00:03:56] Ramit: So she's tight sometimes, but also responsible.

[00:04:00] Hayden: I would say it's a cocktail of both all of the time.

[00:04:02] Ramit: Okay. Got you. All right. So you're living together. You're not married. How do you currently handle money in your household?

[00:04:12] Taylor: I think do we, is a good question because right now he is working part-time and trying to go back to school and paying off debt. That's primarily where his money is going, so I really cover all of the household's costs.

[00:04:29] Ramit: How long have you been living together?

[00:04:32] Taylor: April, 2023.

[00:04:34] Ramit: Okay, so a couple of years. So Taylor, to be clear, you're paying all of the household expenses right now.

[00:04:41] Taylor: Mm-hmm.

[00:04:42] Hayden: Out of like $100 that I give her a week.

[00:04:44] Taylor: Yeah, he gives me $100.

[00:04:45] Hayden: Yeah.

[00:04:46] Ramit: Oh. Where did that $100 come from?

[00:04:49] Taylor: It was actually a compromise from our couples counselor. We were in couples therapy and we talked to our therapist about this. And we came up with that because I don't mind paying for everything in the house, but sometimes it feels like he doesn't have any skin in the game whatsoever. So he gets to just do whatever he wants with his money. Whereas I have to be responsible with my money because it's our life on the line. And we agreed on that.

[00:05:17] Ramit: Okay. And how do you feel about that exercise and that arrangement?

[00:05:22] Hayden: I really wish I could do more. It bothers me that she holds all the weight, financially. I think ideally, I would be contributing equitably.

[00:05:32] Ramit: Why does it bother you, just out of curiosity?

[00:05:36] Hayden: Her feeling like I'm not invested. I think that bothers me that I'm making her feel that way, I guess.

[Narration]

[00:05:42] Ramit: Did you catch what Taylor just said? "He gets to do whatever he wants with his money while I have to be responsible because it's our life on the line." That is a powerful statement. Hayden is not contributing equally to their expenses, and he knows it. But the standout moment for me is the agreement that they made. Hayden contributes $100 a month to shared expenses.

[00:06:06] And that number isn't random. It came out of his session with their couple's therapist. Taylor wanted him to have some "skin in the game." Now, I'm not judging them, but $100 a month for an able-bodied adult in their mid-20s is a pretty low bar, and that is part of the problem.

[00:06:24] This reminds me of what I call the plight of experts. Let's say you're a personal trainer. You know that the truth is to have a healthy body and build bone density and muscle mass and all kinds of stuff, you need to work out, let's say three to four hours a week, probably doing some strength training. Try telling that to somebody who hasn't worked out in 25 years. It's overwhelming. So they simply shut down hearing that advice.

[00:06:49] So what does an expert do? Well, they reduce their recommendations. Okay, okay, okay. Let's start with 30 minutes. Oh, okay. Forget about 30 minutes. How about just a walk once a week? How about just a walk once a month? The standard gets lower and lower just to get people in the door.

[00:07:05] I see the same thing with emergency funds. I recommend a 12-month emergency fund, not because it's easy, but because it gives you true financial security, especially when things are particularly uncertain. But whenever I talk about this, I get the same reaction. Ramit, that's totally unreasonable for most people. Okay. That's why we start with a month, then three months and six months, and on and on and on. The goal doesn't change, but we can make the steps feel doable.

[00:07:31] That's what's happening here with Hayden. He says he wants things to feel equitable, but his income doesn't support that. So they started with 100 bucks. Fine. I don't mind it. But there needs to be a vision of that number going up. I still have a lot of questions about how the rest of their money is set up, so let's dig in to their CSP.

[Interview]

[00:07:50] Ramit: Okay. I'm very curious about the numbers. Can we take a look?

[00:07:55] Hayden: Yeah.

[00:07:56] Taylor: Sure.

[00:07:56] Ramit: Okay. Let's keep in mind you are not married, but you're living together. So is your money in separate accounts?

[00:08:07] Hayden: Yeah.

[00:08:08] Ramit: It is. Okay. But for the purposes of this, you also added a combined, which is very helpful. So let's see here. Taylor, can you read off the word in bold and then the combined number in full next to it for this entire box, please?

[00:08:26] Taylor: Assets, $8,900. Investments, $83,952. Savings $114,099. And debt, $5,570.

[00:08:49] Ramit: Total net worth?

[00:08:51] Taylor: $201,381.

[00:08:55] Ramit: Okay. I should point out that the majority of the investments are yours, Taylor. So out of 83,000, 82,000 of those are yours. The majority of savings are yours. Out of 114,000, 113,000 are yours. And the debt, $5,500 is Hayden's debt. Okay. How do you feel about those numbers?

[00:09:22] Hayden: I'm very proud of Taylor. She's done really well. She has no debt, saved up so much money, invested. She's kicking [Bleep]. So I'm really proud of her.

[00:09:31] Ramit: I love that. Okay. And how about for you, Hayden?

[00:09:34] Hayden: I think for me, I'm not super upset with my numbers. It's just where I am right now in life. So I'm in a very transitional part of my life. I think sitting next to Taylor as a super impressive person might bother some people, but it doesn't bother me.

[00:09:48] Ramit: Ah, okay. All right. Let's go down to the income section. This time, Hayden, I'm going to ask you to read off the combined gross monthly income number.

[00:10:01] Hayden: Gross monthly income, $16,614.

[00:10:06] Ramit: Okay. So that's just about $200,000 a year in household income. Is that correct?

[00:10:14] Hayden: No.

[00:10:15] Taylor: Yeah, no.

[00:10:17] Ramit: What is the actual number?

[00:10:19] Taylor: Annual?

[00:10:20] Ramit: Yeah, annual.

[00:10:23] Taylor: 268.

[00:10:25] Hayden: That was yours. And then I think mine was, last year, 13,000. So 281.

[00:10:31] Ramit: So you're only off by $80,000. Some people lose a couple of quarters in the couch. Some people forget about $80,000 in gross household income. Who am I to say?

[00:10:44] Hayden: Right.

[00:10:45] Taylor: Because I get quarterly bonuses, and I didn't know how to break that up monthly. And they're not guaranteed. So that's what I was worried about.

[00:10:54] Ramit: Okay, so you didn't include them.

[00:10:56] Taylor: Correct.

[00:10:57] Ramit: Are you probably going to get the bonuses this year?

[00:11:02] Taylor: Maybe. I think.

[00:11:04] Ramit: What's the odds?

[00:11:06] Taylor: 70%.

[00:11:08] Ramit: 70%. All right. And you think it's going to be less than the amount you got last year?

[00:11:12] Taylor: Correct.

[00:11:12] Ramit: All right, so last year you got 80k of bonuses. What would be a reasonable conservative amount to assume you're going to get this year?

[00:11:21] Taylor: 40.

[00:11:22] Ramit: 40k. 50% of what you made last year in bonuses. Would that be reasonable to assume? Can you feel confident you'll hit that?

[00:11:28] Taylor: Yes.

[00:11:28] Ramit: Okay, that's your number. That's how we do it. We don't let indecision stop us from making projections. We pick a number. We always pick a conservative number because if we're going to get surprised, we're going to get surprised in the positive way, not the negative way. And then we move on with our life.

[00:11:44] Taylor: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:45] Ramit: All right, I'm going to update this. We just added 2,500 month in take home pay. The income disparity between the two of you is quite striking. Can I ask what each of you does for a living, starting with Taylor?

[00:12:02] Taylor: I'm a dentist.

[00:12:03] Ramit: Okay. Hayden?

[00:12:05] Hayden: I part-time bartend and dabble in real estate.

[00:12:09] Ramit: Okay. And were you both in these occupations when you first met? Okay. That's interesting. Hayden, were you earning the same amount when you met as you are now?

[00:12:23] Hayden: No. I was making about three times as much.

[00:12:25] Ramit: What happened?

[00:12:26] Hayden: I moved. That's what happened. I was at a job when we met, and it was a pretty good gig. We were doing really well. It's a pretty popular bar where I'm from. But then she graduated from dental school, moved to Knoxville, and then, I don't know, six or eight months later I was there.

[00:12:43] Ramit: Okay. So you moved to be closer to Taylor.

[00:12:46] Hayden: Yeah, we moved in together. That was the point of me moving.

[00:12:49] Ramit: Okay. And making 60k, that's pretty good living. What happened to the money?

[00:12:55] Hayden: Oh, I spent all of it. At 21, I was having a lot of fun.

[00:12:58] Ramit: Mm-hmm. Is it different now?

[00:13:01] Hayden: Yeah. I'm definitely better with my money now than I ever was making closer to 60.

[00:13:07] Ramit: Moving on, fixed costs. What's that percentage, Taylor?

[00:13:11] Taylor: 36%.

[00:13:12] Ramit: All right. What do you think of that number?

[00:13:15] Taylor: I think it looks great.

[00:13:17] Ramit: Yeah, that's quite low. Usually, I recommend people have their fixed costs between 50 to 60%. And truthfully, most people are at the higher end of that, if not over. What does that tell you, Hayden?

[00:13:34] Hayden: Based off the household income, our life is not very expensive.

[00:13:38] Ramit: That's correct. That's exactly right. Your fixed costs, your housing costs, your auto costs, they're quite low. So what that means is you probably have a lot of extra money to do stuff with. I have no critiques because if you're at 36%, I have no notes. But just to go through it. Debt payment is at 600 bucks. That's for your debt, Hayden. Is that right?

[00:14:00] Hayden: Yeah. I like to pay around that every month.

[00:14:03] Ramit: What's the debt for?

[00:14:04] Hayden: There's a little bit of school, IRS, a little bit of credit card.

[00:14:12] Ramit: Okay. All right. When is this debt going to be paid off?

[00:14:16] Hayden: I just had a listing go live and went under contract the next day. If that were to close, it would pay off all my debt, all of it.

[00:14:23] Ramit: All right. Let's continue moving along. We have your investments. Investments are at 9%. That's Taylor putting aside 1,000 bucks a month in a post-tax retirement, and Hayden is putting $83 aside per month. Okay, cool. Let's keep moving. Savings at 10%. Is this real? What the hell? Read these numbers off to me.

[00:14:50] Taylor: Long-term emergency, zero; wedding, zero, house.

[00:14:54] Ramit: You do have $114,000 in savings, so that's years and years of savings

[00:15:01] Taylor: Yeah. So the zeros are because I'm done saving. I've hit my goal. They're there, but I'm no longer adding to them.

[00:15:08] Ramit: Round of applause for that. That is a lovely thing to hear. I'm done. I hit my goals. It's so rare we get to say that, but you did it. Great job.

[00:15:15] Taylor: Thanks.

[00:15:16] Ramit: Okay, hold on. Hayden, how come you're putting 600 bucks a month aside for vacations?

[00:15:26] Hayden: It's not necessarily vacations. That 600 bucks a month that I'm putting aside is like my sinking fund, so that I can use it during times where it's time to have fun, I guess.

[00:15:40] Ramit: Wait, isn't fun paying off your debt?

[00:15:43] Hayden: It's not very fun.

[00:15:48] Ramit: I get that you're using it as a sinking fund. I actually think that's really smart, especially when you have irregular income.

[00:15:53] Hayden: In the industries that I work in, it's very much economy based. I made $2,000 a month, but that's not necessarily the case. The past two months, I might've made $1,300 or $1,200.

[00:16:07] Ramit: What do you do when you make 1,300 instead of 2000?

[00:16:12] Hayden: I just figure it out. I don't have plans in place or anything like that. I make the money and then I put a certain amount where I know it has to go, and then I'm left with the rest. And if it's 200 bucks that month, I might spend it on myself. I might go out to eat or go see a movie or go out with friends, whatever.

[00:16:32] Ramit: Okay. Taylor, as you're hearing this, what are you feeling right now?

[00:16:37] Taylor: I feel frustrated right now. Just upset, a little hopeless.

[00:16:44] Ramit: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:45] Taylor: Sometimes when I hear him talk, I'm like, "I don't understand how that doesn't just give you raging anxiety all the time." But also, the things that he does with the money, the actions also just not what I would do, not what I have done in the past. Because there was a time before I was making $268,000.

[00:17:08] Ramit: Let's look at the final numbers here, and then I want to understand more about your relationships with money. According to this, you have 45% of money going to guilt-free spending. Now, we all know that's not happening, right? You're not spending $5,600 a month on guilt-free spending. True or false?

[00:17:29] Taylor: True.

[00:17:30] Ramit: Okay. So where's the money going? It's seems like it's just going to savings.

[00:17:35] Hayden: Yeah, it's being hoarded.

[00:17:37] Ramit: Oh, what was that word?

[00:17:38] Hayden: Hoarded. It's being hoarded.

[00:17:42] Ramit: What does that mean, hoarded?

[00:17:43] Hayden: It's being kept and nothing's happened with it. As much as one can collect, they're keeping it.

[00:17:50] Ramit: Oh, that's quite revealing. So is money in savings being hoarded?

[00:17:57] Taylor: I don't think so. I think money in savings, there's a goal for that.

[00:18:01] Ramit: Okay. Taylor says no. Hayden, what do you say?

[00:18:04] Hayden: I think if we were saving all of the money, sure. But I think you have checking accounts that have tens of thousands of dollars.

[00:18:14] Taylor: Not right now. No, I do--

[00:18:15] Hayden: Oh, okay.

[00:18:16] Taylor: I put that there in order to then place it somewhere else. There is a goal for that.

[00:18:21] Hayden: Got you.

[00:18:22] Ramit: What's the difference between savings and hoarding, or is there not a difference? Hayden?

[00:18:27] Hayden: I think if she has a plan for said money, then that's fair. Okay, she has $50,000 or something like that in a wedding fund. I don't buy that she plans to spend 50k on a wedding. Go ahead.

[00:18:40] Ramit: Hold on, Taylor. I want to hear what Hayden has to say.

[00:18:42] Hayden: Also, because we've talked about it before. She doesn't plan to spend $50,000 on a wedding. So in my head it's like, why do you have all of that money if you don't plan to use it for that?

[00:18:51] Ramit: Hayden, if she says she's not going to spend 50k on a wedding, but has 50k in a wedding fund, why might she do that?

[00:18:59] Hayden: I think with the emergency buffer being in all of these accounts, she has more in these accounts than she's actually wanting to use for these things. That's why I would call it hoarding and she would call it just being careful.

[00:19:12] Ramit: In your view, how much should she have for a wedding fund?

[00:19:16] Hayden: Oh, I wouldn't want to spend $50,000 on a wedding, so I'm closer to half of that maybe.

[00:19:23] Ramit: So she should have 25k in a wedding fund. What should she do with the rest of the money?

[00:19:30] Hayden: That 25,000, probably invest. Or put it somewhere else, have another goal maybe.

[00:19:37] Ramit: And out of curiosity, how much of that type of thinking do you do with your own money?

[00:19:42] Hayden: I don't do any of that. I'm very opposite. Money comes in and it goes right out.

[00:19:48] Ramit: Hmm. Okay. Taylor, did you have something you wanted to add?

[00:19:56] Taylor: No, I was just like, "You ate with that. You ate with that, sir?"

[00:20:00] Ramit: According to the conscious spending plan that you both submitted to me, Hayden, you have $1,070 in savings.

[00:20:08] Hayden: Yeah. I've got another 1,000 in investments as well. And then when it comes to just money on me, it's about another 1,000.

[00:20:19] Ramit: You have $1,000 dollars on you right now?

[00:20:22] Hayden: Between cash and checking, yeah.

[00:20:25] Ramit: Where? Is it in your pocket right now? Can you show me?

[00:20:28] Hayden: No, it's in my bank account, and I have some cash. It might be like-- oh, yeah, there it is.

[00:20:33] Ramit: Wait. Show me what's in there. We don't usually show cash on this show. Just show me what's in there.

[00:20:38] Hayden: There's probably, I think $180 in there.

[00:20:41] Ramit: First of all, this is interesting. Taylor is pulling out a portfolio. Hold that up to the camera. Hold that up. Okay. What in the hell? Oh. Hold on, hold on, hold on. Slow down, slow down. Go back. So this is like a cash wallet. I haven't seen one of these in a long time. There's laminated plastic, and they have money, and it says gas. And they literally have money. They're doing the envelope system. Okay, so that's gas. Let's go to the next one.

[00:21:04] They have one called bills. It's a bit of a vague description, but okay. What's next? They have one called sinking fund. Well done. Looks like there's a $10 or-- there's nothing in there. Okay, there's nothing in there. Next up they have school. There's a $10 bill in there. Oh and a five. Okay. Maybe there's more. I can't really tell. Moving along. Savings has nothing in it. Okay. DG night. What's that?

[00:21:33] Taylor: Date night.

[00:21:34] Ramit: Oh, date night. Oh, date night. Okay. All right. Date night. That has zero in it. All right. Next? Therapy has $100 in it. Okay. And maybe more. I can't tell, but keep going. Real estate has zero. Okay. Roth IRA has nothing. Okay. And we're at the end. Wow. Okay.

[00:21:55] First of all, I got to say, I love the organization system. The envelope system is quite effective for people who are not making a lot of money and need to be extremely diligent. It's also good for people who have historically been irresponsible with their money because it is a very clear black and white strategy. When the money runs out, that's it.

[00:22:14] And to have to literally and figuratively lift it from another envelope and put it in this envelope, you realize like, oh [Bleep]. Why am I withdrawing my go to Cheesecake to Factory? That doesn't quite make sense. So who came up with that system?

[00:22:29] Hayden: Taylor did.

[00:22:31] Ramit: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:32] Hayden: Well, I think Taylor found it on TikTok and then presented it to me and was like, "Hey."

[00:22:37] Ramit: Taylor didn't find that in my book? I also referenced that in I Will Teach You to Be Rich, but we'll leave that for another day. Okay. Taylor, on your application, you wrote, "I think we're hesitant to get engaged because of different money philosophies." Taylor, let's go to you. What are your philosophies around money?

[00:22:58] Taylor: I feel like money is power. When you have money, you're more likely to not only just do the things you want, but first of all, stay alive. It's a safety thing. To make sure that you're always taken care of, your family, your spouse, your children, whoever is always taken care of in hopes that you never have the rug pulled under you.

[00:23:23] Ramit: What do you say, Hayden?

[00:23:24] Hayden: My philosophy with money is that it doesn't really have value. I know that's not true. I'm just letting you know how my brain works. Money is only here so that you can pay for things that do matter, like experiences, things like that.

[00:23:41] Ramit: So when you say money doesn't have value, are you really saying, "I like to live for today and I don't really care about investing or saving for tomorrow?"

[00:23:48] Hayden: Yeah.

[00:23:49] Ramit: Mm-hmm. Taylor, what do you hear from Hayden?

[00:23:53] Taylor: I hear that, "I don't value the things that money could provide. I don't see money as safety. I don't need safety. I'm worried about right now, and whatever happens later, whatever."

[00:24:08] Hayden: Yeah. I think she's right in all of that. I think I might go a little bit deeper than that. I think that our philosophies come from our own personal traumas, and I think the way that we reconcile that is through therapy, self-reflection, practice, stuff like that. We are a couple and we're one, but it's much more individual, like I said, trauma that I think we both need to work out. Yeah.

[Narration]

[00:24:32] Ramit: Do you hear the difference in how they talk about money? For Taylor, money means safety, control, power. She sees money as a tool for stability and control. For Hayden, it's different. He says money has "no value." Those are his exact words. Hayden sees money as a ticket to fun and freedom.

[00:24:52] Now, the good news is you can actually have a healthy, happy relationship, even if both of you see money differently. But you do have to find some shared, meaningful vision. What really stands out to me also is when Hayden says Taylor hoards money. That word choice is revealing.

[00:25:12] Hayden himself doesn't really know much about money, but when he sees Taylor handling it, he calls it hoarding. I think that Hayden is consciously or unconsciously demonizing Taylor's money management so that he doesn't have to take a look in the mirror at his own finances.

[00:25:27] And if you know somebody who's in a relationship where one person handles all the money and the other one avoids it, send them this episode. It might be the start of a conversation they've been avoiding for years.

[Interview]

[00:25:40] Ramit: Hayden, what do you remember your family saying about money when you were young?

[00:25:46] Hayden: It really wasn't discussed all that much. It was more of those, there's adult issues and then there's things that kids need to worry about. So a lot of the time I was left in the dark about money.

[00:25:59] Ramit: Were you growing up with two parents?

[00:26:03] Hayden: Four parents. I grew up in two different households.

[00:26:05] Ramit: Ah, got it.

[00:26:06] Hayden: My dad and my stepmom, again, they didn't really discuss money with me, but I know that was much more of a middle class home than the other house was.

[00:26:15] Ramit: What was the other house, if it's not middle class?

[00:26:18] Hayden: Higher middle class. I went to private school from kindergarten to 12th grade.

[00:26:26] Ramit: How much did that cost? Do you have a sense?

[00:26:29] Hayden: Through those 12 years altogether?

[00:26:31] Ramit: Per year.

[00:26:31] Hayden: Oh, per year. I think when I was younger it was 3 to $5,000 a year. And then high school it was like 12 to 14 a year.

[00:26:41] Ramit: You used the word trauma as it relates to money, and I wonder-- if I'm overstepping, we can simply not talk about this, but I'm curious, is there something that affected your relationship with money that happened in your past?

[00:26:57] Hayden: Yeah. I think for both of us we could say that.

[00:27:00] Ramit: Okay. Tell me about yours first.

[00:27:02] Hayden: When I was 15, I had a really good friend pass away. July 4th, 2015 is when he died, and it was cancer. He was my age. So that was pretty tough. And then July 6th, 2016, so a year and two days later, my dad passed away, cancer again. I have experienced more loss in 25 years than maybe your average person would. So I'm definitely living for the moment. Why am I going to save up for money to spend when I'm 45, when I'm going to die at 42?

[00:27:39] Ramit: I'm so sorry you lost your dad and your friend. That loss really weighs on you, especially coming days apart.

[00:27:50] Hayden: Right. Yeah.

[00:27:51] Ramit: I'm so sorry. When you say that after that happened, you were basically living for the moment. Can you help me understand that? Why did you make that conclusion?

[00:28:01] Hayden: After all that happened, saving just sounded really stupid, honestly. Sorry.

[00:28:05] Ramit: Why?

[00:28:05] Hayden: Because saving for what? My dad was a firefighter. He worked super hard. He had three kids and a wife. He was saving and then he just got cancer and died.

[00:28:18] Ramit: How old was your dad when he passed away?

[00:28:20] Hayden: 42.

[00:28:20] Ramit: 42. So that's why you said I'm not even going to be around past 42.

[00:28:24] Hayden: Right. My dad was this big dude. He was a firefighter. He was a professional hero. So growing up, this dude is invincible. And when he had the cancer, from his diagnosis, it was six months when he died. So him dying at 42, how am I going to make it past that?

[00:28:43] Ramit: What if you did?

[00:28:44] Hayden: I think I probably will. If I actually sit down and rationally think about it, there is no evidence to say that I'm going to die at 42 years old. His dad is still alive.

[00:28:55] Ramit: So can I ask you, financially speaking, what if you do, what if you're 43, 45? What if?

[00:29:02] Hayden: Yeah, I would like to have thought, at 43, 44, 45 that I maybe started saving for those years at 25 and started making plans as a young man, so that at 42, 43, I have a family and we're all okay and everybody feels safe.

[00:29:17] Ramit: The way you talk about, it's almost like rationally, cerebrally, I know I should probably save because I'm probably going to live longer than 42. But deep down, that's not how I feel. I feel I'm going to spend it now.

[00:29:35] Hayden: It feels silly to say no to something fun so that I can save for something in the future. That's how it feels for me. It feels silly to not just say yes and go do it all. Yeah.

[00:29:50] Ramit: Okay. I think you really helped me understand some of where your philosophy on money comes from.

[00:29:56] Hayden: Hmm.

[00:29:57] Ramit: Honestly, it would not have been obvious to me just from looking at the numbers. One of the reasons that I feel so grateful, I get a chance to ask people their story and give them the space to really share it. So I appreciate that.

[00:30:08] Taylor, what about you? What do you remember your family saying about money when you were growing up?

[00:30:15] Taylor: A lot, a lot. And not in a fun way. So my parents, they were also really never together. They hang out one night, and my mom was like, "Oh, there's a baby here." They were never really friends. They just co-parented. My dad kind of paid child supports sometimes when he could, I guess.

[00:30:40] My dad also had a past with addiction, so there was a lot of time that he was in and out of jail, didn't really get to see me as much, if he couldn't pass a drug test or wasn't paying child support. And then in that time my mom was holding it down just her for me and my brother. My mom had a hard time keeping a job because she is epileptic. So sometimes she would have seizures on the job and get fired because of that because it was a liability thing.

[00:31:10] And so there were times that my mom didn't have a job and we were just figuring it out. I remember specifically a time in high school, and it's a, hehe, haha joke with my mom now, but there was a time in high school that my mom had $11 and 23 cents in her bank account and we were to make it until whenever we were going to get paid again. And there wasn't a lot in the house at the time.

[00:31:34] And so I always saved up birthday money, report card money anytime I wanted to do anything. But also, if we ever got into a hard situation, I could help. I never had a job in high school because I focused a lot on extracurriculars because I knew if I was going to go to college, you had to be the best damn student you were going to be because it had to get paid for. So that's why money is safety for me. It's power. Because I didn't have that really at all growing up.

[00:32:03] Ramit: Yeah. Wow. Do you think you had to grow up as a kid before you were ready?

[00:32:11] Taylor: Oh yeah. For sure. Something I've talked to my therapist about is feeling like I have to parent my parents as a child. Yeah.

[00:32:21] Ramit: You do any of that in this relationship?

[00:32:24] Taylor: Damn, caught us. Yes.

[00:32:27] Ramit: Mm-hmm.

[Narration]

[00:32:27] Ramit: I always ask people how they learned about money growing up because often we recreate the financial dynamics that we saw as kids. We just don't realize it. Let's take a look at Taylor. She grew up in a household marked by instability, financial stress, health issues, even incarceration. Her parents were not reliable with money, so what did she do? She stepped up.

[00:32:48] As a child, she started saving not just for herself, but to help her mom to keep the household running. She became, in ways, the parent. Now fast forward to adulthood. Taylor's the saver, the contributor. Her partner is unreliable with money just like her parents, and Taylor feels safest when she's the one in control. It reinforces that belief she's been caring since she was a kid. If I don't take care of it, no one else will.

[00:33:16] And then there's Hayden. When he was 16, he lost his dad. His dad was only 42 years old. That loss shaped how he sees everything. In fact, most of the guys that I know who lost their dads early have told me they expect to die at the same age. That belief that he's going to die early shapes his view of money. It doesn't justify everything, but at least it helps us start to make sense of it. But then I discovered something that broke the trust of their relationship.

[Interview]

[00:33:46] Hayden: Right now, we are definitely in that mother-son dynamic in our relationship. I want that gone. I want us to be equitable partners, a team taking on everything.

[00:33:57] Ramit: Okay. I love that vision, as partners, not parent-child dynamic. I love that. Now let's go back to where you are today. If you continue the way that you're both going today, where are you five, 10 years from now?

[00:34:07] Taylor: Where we are right now.

[00:34:09] Ramit: Yeah, same thing. Just bigger numbers.

[00:34:12] Hayden: I think maybe we're in a better spot, but I think, again, Taylor has dictated how we got there.

[00:34:18] Ramit: Yeah. So who needs to make the change out of the two of you? Probably both, but who needs to primarily make the changes?

[00:34:27] Hayden: I'd say me. That's what I would say. I think that I need to be more reliable, maybe do more of the things with money that I say I'm going to do. And I think that'll make her feel better backing off.

[00:34:40] Ramit: What if you don't?

[00:34:43] Hayden: I think the mother-son dynamic will just continue until we part ways.

[00:34:47] Ramit: Mm-hmm. Taylor, you agree with that?

[00:34:50] Taylor: Yeah. We've had a lot of discussions, and he doesn't really like to talk about this, but I have told him that if I don't think that things are changing, I don't think I can be with someone that I don't trust. I really don't want that for us, and so that's why I feel like we're trying to do everything we can to get on the same page.

[00:35:08] Ramit: What's his trusting? You mentioned it a couple of times, and this thing about bringing money together. What happened to this money? Is there something there with the trust?

[00:35:19] Hayden: So I got into gambling when I was about 18 years old.

[00:35:25] Ramit: Okay. What happened?

[00:35:27] Hayden: I got into it really bad. Definitely became a habit, an addiction, to the point where I was just, again-- and someone who doesn't value money, it's not a great addiction to have. Because I was just blowing all of it until I got that hit, that win, that big euphoric feeling. So when me and Taylor first moved in together and I had money from the house that I sold, I blew all of it in not all lot of time.

[00:35:54] Ramit: How much time?

[00:35:56] Hayden: Four or five months.

[00:35:58] Ramit: Wow. How much money are we talking about?

[00:36:00] Hayden: 35,000.

[00:36:03] Ramit: Wow.

[00:36:05] Hayden: It got to the point where my money got low. I took out a personal loan at a 20-something percent just to continue the lie. With addiction, there's lies, gaslighting, all of the things. And eventually, there was a point where my back was on the wall. There was no more keeping it a secret and lying about it.

[00:36:29] So when I came clean to Taylor, or was forced to-- I don't want to give myself credit. Like I, "Hey, babe. Actually, I've been lying for--" So that's not really what happened. What happened was there was no more room to move, and obviously she was very hurt.

[00:36:44] Ramit: Taylor, when did you realize something was wrong?

[00:36:47] Taylor: Even from the beginning, as soon as he received the money from his house, I had doubts. He would go back to his hometown, blow a good amount of money, and I would be like, what is going on? He's like, "I just need to have fun. I need to do this. I need to do that." So we had a lot of talks about that.

[00:37:03] And then he had blown through everything. I didn't know yet. He had gotten the personal loan, and he was doing a Zoom meeting for his real estate and he needed something from his email. And I said, "Don't worry. I'll find it for you. Keep going on your interview." I'm going through his email to find what it is that he needed, and I find an email about the personal loan, and I'm like, "Hmm, this seems odd."

[00:37:27] So I get him what he needs. He gets off the interview, and I'm like, "Hey, I found this thing in your email. This seems predatory. Is this something that you're doing?" And he's like, "No, no, no, not at all. I was just seeing if I could qualify for this, da da da da." And in my head I'm like, "I feel like this is [Bleep]."

[00:37:45] And then later he comes clean to me that in that moment, he went to work and was screaming, crying, throwing up in the car because obviously I found out. Even though he had convinced me that it wasn't like that. And then maybe six or so months later is when him and I had a conversation and I was like, "Is there something you need to tell me?"

[00:38:04] Ramit: Are you telling me took him six months to come clean about?

[00:38:07] Taylor: After he had taken out the loan. Yeah. I think in total, it ended up being a year from when he moved in is when I really found out everything.

[00:38:15] Ramit: What happened when you found out? What was it?

[00:38:17] Taylor: I was devastated because I never wanted to feel like a man was just living off of me. And that's exactly what it ended up feeling like. Because here I am paying for our whole life in hopes that you can save money, do your investments, pay for your real estate so that you can do everything you want to do. Because he's telling me that's what he wants.

[00:38:37] That's his dream. And so I'm like, "Okay. I'm in a place that I can absolutely pay for us while you're doing that. I did ask you to move down here with me. I asked you to give up a lot, so that's the least I can do." And then I find out he blew $40,000 and wasn't paying me [Bleep], wasn't offering me a dime.

[00:38:55] And so it felt so much like I was being taken advantage of. It felt like I was obviously not a priority. And then to keep up a lie for a year, knowing I was finding out little bits and pieces and I was just continuously getting lied to, gas lit, that really hurt our relationship a lot.

[00:39:15] Ramit: Where did you go from there? It seems like it would be really tough to recover from.

[00:39:20] Taylor: I think in a way we're still recovering from it, and I think that's why the financial stuff has gotten as serious as it is. These are questions I've asked myself, like, at what extent is it going to stop? At what point am I going to have to be like, "I can't?" And a lot of times I don't like to think about that because I don't want that to be the case. I want this to work so badly.

[00:39:41] I want for this to be reconciled so badly. And my hope is if I tell him, "Hey, at some point I'm going to leave if you don't fix it," that he's just going to fix it because he loves me and wants to be with me. And it hurts a lot when I say that and things don't change. Because then it tells me in my brain, "Oh, he doesn't love you enough to change the things. And he knows that at some point you're going to get sick and tired, and he's okay with that."

[00:40:09] Hayden: We've had that conversation, and I feel very trapped with that.

[00:40:14] Ramit: Why?

[00:40:15] Hayden: I struggle with other things outside of just past trauma and stuff. I struggle with compulsion, obviously. ADHD pretty heavy, anxiety. So there's other barriers outside of just not wanting to give Taylor what she wants.

[00:40:33] Ramit: Are you getting help for those things?

[00:40:36] Hayden: Yeah, yeah.

[00:40:37] Ramit: That's good.

[00:40:38] Hayden: Mm-hmm. Yeah. We have our own personal therapist plus a personal.

[00:40:43] Ramit: It's really good.

[00:40:44] Hayden: I'm also in GA now. I have been for, I guess, 14 months. I haven't gambled since. So I think it's discouraging, and sometimes it feels like some of my effort might be discounted, but it's really hard for me to think like that, or ever feel sorry for myself based off the story you just got, which was 100% accurate. She didn't miss anything.

[00:41:10] Ramit: When you took that personal loan out, how much was the loan for?

[00:41:15] Hayden: 7,500 bucks.

[00:41:17] Ramit: $7,500. Who'd you take it from?

[00:41:21] Hayden: I don't even remember.

[00:41:23] Taylor: LendingPoint.

[00:41:25] Ramit: Oh [Bleep].

[00:41:25] Taylor: I remember. It was a big deal to me.

[00:41:27] Ramit: What was the interest rate?

[00:41:29] Hayden: Oh, 22 probably.

[00:41:32] Ramit: How were you planning to pay it back?

[00:41:34] Hayden: I guess I didn't really have much of a plan at the time. I think my plan was to stop gambling, but I didn't come clean to anyone about the struggles that I had.

[00:41:46] Ramit: How did it feel to keep that secret from Taylor?

[00:41:50] Hayden: Oh my God. Took years off of my life probably. It was terrible. Overwhelmed with guilt to the point where when she's asking me about money, I'm getting visibly upset with her, and really, it's not with her at all. I'm getting upset with her because I know I'm going to have to lie to her when she asks.

[00:42:09] Ramit: Do you still feel like you have to lie about money?

[00:42:12] Hayden: No. I'm pretty transparent with my money, and that's part of my recovery too. I gave her full access to all of my accounts and stuff like that.

[00:42:22] Ramit: When you were not telling her about the personal loan that you'd taken out, what was holding you back from telling her? What were you afraid of?

[00:42:30] Hayden: Oh. First of all, I was worried about not being able to gamble. And then I was also worried about, if she knew all of this, I think she would leave.

[Narration]

[00:42:41] Ramit: I want to pause here for a second. I really appreciate Hayden's honesty. Admitting that he lied to Taylor about money, especially in front of her on this call, takes a lot of courage. But despite that honesty, he is still glossing over something critical. He said if she knew all of this, I think she would leave. But we should be honest. Taylor has already said she's thinking about leaving, not hypothetically. She has said flat out, if things don't change, she's gone. That's not a distant risk. That is a current reality.

[00:43:17] Sometimes we're so worried about what might happen that we ignore what's actually happening in front of our eyes. But to his credit, Hayden has taken some real steps. He's gone to GA, Gamblers Anonymous. He started therapy. I respect that. It's not easy. But that pattern of broken trust is still there. So listen as I push them to get honest with themselves.

[Interview]

[00:43:38] Ramit: Hayden, can I make a point about your situation right now? So you mentioned back then you held onto this lie for a long time. You were worried that she would break up with you. But right now Taylor is telling you in no uncertain terms that if things don't change, she might have to leave.

[00:43:55] At the same time, back then you were worried about not being able to gamble. And right now, even just a few minutes ago you said, "I want to still have fun with my money." Do you see the similarities in what was happening back then and what is happening right now?

[00:44:12] Hayden: Sure. Yeah. I guess in both scenarios, she is not cool with how I'm using or spending my money. And in both scenarios, if those things were to continue, she would leave.

[00:44:30] Ramit: Have you said that Taylor?

[00:44:34] Taylor: Yeah, and he really doesn't like when I say that. To me it feels like I'm setting a boundary. If this continues, if this behavior continues, I will need to leave. And I feel like sometimes the way that he hears it is like a threat or an attack. And so to him it feels not fair. But to me, I feel like staying when something like this is happening is not fair. For me, this feels like the biggest problem in our relationship.

[00:45:01] Ramit: Okay. Hayden, do you agree?

[00:45:06] Hayden: Yes, with an asterisk.

[00:45:08] Ramit: Tell me.

[00:45:08] Hayden: It's not my biggest problem. It's Taylor's.

[00:45:11] Ramit: What? Money is not your biggest problem?

[00:45:17] Hayden: In our relationship. When it comes to what I would want to talk about with our couples therapists, no.

[00:45:24] Ramit: Taylor is literally telling us, this is the biggest problem to me. If something is the biggest problem to one partner, it's the biggest problem to both.

[00:45:32] Hayden: Sure.

[00:45:33] Ramit: And the fact that your earnings have been cut by more than half, the fact that you gambled and hid it away, the fact that you have not managed to save or invest much, even though your living expenses are totally covered, how's that not top three or top problem?

[00:45:50] Hayden: I think about if I do try and I go really hard for the finances and it still ends up not being good enough and she still leaves, how am I going to feel about that? Versus if I don't try at all and she leaves.

[00:46:05] Ramit: Yeah, that's called self-handicapping. That's what kids do the day before they have a test in college, and they go, "I'm just going to go out and get wasted." And then they get a bad grade and they go, "See, I told you studying doesn't even work. It doesn't even make a difference, so I'm just going to keep going out."

[00:46:19] That's exactly the textbook definition of self-handicapping. That's exactly what you're doing. I'm not going to try, because if I try and I fail, then what does it say about me? Can you actually answer the question? If you try and then Taylor actually leaves, what does it actually say about you?

[00:46:38] Hayden: Incompetent, not good enough, stupid, all the things.

[00:46:43] Ramit: You're stuck in your own cycle, which is not helping you move forward. And meanwhile, you have a partner here who's saying, "I need you in this. I need you to work on yourself because my expectations are that you come up to this level." Not necessarily earning some crazy income, but engaging with money. How does it feel when I say that out loud?

[00:47:10] Hayden: It all feels fine. My biggest fear, again, is to say no to a good time or no to having fun, having experiences. And if the answer is like, you can't, it's hard to sign up. It's hard to be cool and okay with that.

[00:47:28] Ramit: Mm-hmm.

[00:47:29] Hayden: Yeah.

[00:47:30] Ramit: Taylor?

[00:47:32] Taylor: He has overcome so much, like being in GA every single week, not gambling. He's done that for a year. That is not easy. That's really difficult. And for me to watch him do a lot of these really difficult things, but we can't seem to fix this money issue, it makes me feel like, oh, the problem is me. He doesn't prioritize me. That's why it's not important to him.

[00:47:57] And then I don't ever want to scare him and make him feel like I don't recognize and appreciate the things that he has changed because I do, and I know that some of his drawback is that he feels like the changes he does make, I just keep asking for more and more and more.

[00:48:15] I can do better on that part about being more grateful or appreciative when changes are made. But, at this point, I feel like I have been patient. I feel like I have tried to be there I don't want to harp on the past, but that gambling thing was awful for me. That hurt me.

[00:48:34] And I think I did a lot to try to rekindle things and try to fix things and want to continue to go from there. That was really hard for me. And so it's not that I don't appreciate the things that have changed. It just feels like it's not enough to make up for what I felt during that time.

[00:48:58] Ramit: What strikes me is when you say it's not enough. I think that when something happens in a relationship early on that can be traumatic, it's really easy to live there for a long time. Those things have lasting effects. They've had it on both of you and on your relationship.

[00:49:14] When you say it's not enough, that connects with me because I think your expectations are higher than what Hayden is delivering in terms of effort, engagement with money, that kind of thing. I think it would be difficult for me to hear, it's not enough to make up for what happened in the past. The past happened.

[00:49:35] From what I hear, Hayden, you're doing a really good job of being involved in GA, engaging with multiple therapists. That is commendable. It's really hard. It's amazing. I do think that probably creating a vision of where you both want to go and actually setting your boundaries. Here's what this looks like.

[00:49:58] Here's what I need, and I hope that you can deliver that. I hope that you're the person for me. But if not, these are my boundaries. That is quite different than saying it's not enough to make up for what happened in the past. But there's so many layers here. What would it take to feel like Hayden has skin in the game beyond the $100 a month?

[00:50:26] Taylor: Like what things would I would need to see from him?

[00:50:29] Ramit: Yeah.

[00:50:30] Taylor: A plan, a solid plan that he's following, that is reoccurring, that's consistent. Because it's not that I need more money from him I don't. I need it to look like this is important to him, that it is a priority, that he has created a system, that he's following it, that it's consistent. That's what I need.

[00:50:55] Ramit: Hayden, what do you hear Taylor saying right now?

[00:50:59] Hayden: Yeah, I think what I hear Taylor say, and I've known this, it's not at all about how much money I make. It's absolutely what I do with it and how I manage it. Whatever that X dollar amount is, it doesn't really matter to her. But she needs to feel okay with us getting married and merging that money because now it's ours.

[00:51:24] Ramit: How would she know that you are taking her request seriously?

[00:51:31] Hayden: I think above anything else, consistency. I've tried a whole bunch of stuff. Even that notebook that you saw that, it was her idea to do. I've tried that, but I haven't been as consistent as I could be.

[00:51:46] Ramit: How much of your relationship with money and like what you do in your relationship is just to get Taylor off your back so she stops asking you questions?

[00:51:54] Hayden: Most of it, and I think that's the problem too.

[00:51:57] Ramit: Hold on. Before you go into explaining, just sit with that for a second. What did you just say to me?

[00:52:04] Hayden: Most of the things that I do with money is just to get Taylor off my back.

[00:52:15] Ramit: So what do you guys want to do?

[00:52:21] Taylor: I want to fix the holes. I would like to prevent future holes if we could. I know that things aren't going to be perfect and we're still going to have small spats, but I want so badly, again, for us to be able to even be close to the same page, the same book. I want to make this work. I really do.

[00:52:38] Ramit: Okay. Hayden, what do you want to do?

[00:52:43] Hayden: I want to marry Taylor, so whatever that takes. Whatever I've got to do to do that, I think that's the frustrating part. Whatever it is--

[00:52:50] Ramit: Okay, you want to do it so that she agrees to get engaged. Fine. Is that the only reason? Is there anything for you to--

[00:52:57] Hayden: Not really.

[00:52:59] Ramit: Okay.

[Narration]

[00:53:00] Ramit: This really stopped me cold. When I asked Hayden why he wants to change, his answer was, "I want Taylor to marry me." I think he means it, but it's not enough. When you're trying to make a major change with money, you could brute force it for a while. You can check your account every day. You can promise to appreciate your partner every morning.

[00:53:23] You can try harder to cut back on overspending, but real change, deep, lasting change requires something way more than trying harder. You need a big, vivid, powerful reason that helps keep you on track when it gets hard. Maybe it's, I'm tired of not being able to buy my kids a birthday gift every year. Or I'm not going to go to the grocery store anymore and wonder if there's money in my account at the checkout lane. Or I want to go to my high school reunion with my head held high.

[00:53:57] And sometimes even those powerful reasons aren't enough. Think about it. People who are in life or death medical conditions, even they often do not take their prescribed medication. That is how hard it is to change. Knowing that is why I push people so hard to get specific. Because these generalities like, I need to try harder, they don't work. They don't change behavior.

[00:54:21] After a week or two, you just go right back to what you were doing. I want to hear specific, vivid reasons like this. "I want my wife to smile when I walk in the door because I know I have gotten everything I need to do, done with my finances." That specific. It's emotional. It's real. Or better yet, I want to be proud of myself. I know others have taken control of their money, so I know I can too.

[00:54:45] This is what I'm trying to get Hayden to find, his real reason. And until he finds that, it's just for someone else, and it's hard to make that stick. Deep down Taylor knows this. You'll hear her response in just a second.

[Interview]

[00:55:00] Taylor: I hate that because I want him to want to do this because it's good for him. It's good for me. It's good for our potential family. He sees the benefits of all of these things. I don't want him to just do that because he wants to marry me. Because that's not going to hold up forever. I don't want to be the only reason that you make good decisions. I want you to want to do this for you and our family, and not just me.

[00:55:29] Hayden: Yes, our family as well. I guess what I'm thinking about for me is I want to be married with Taylor and have a family with. That's how I'm doing it for me, I guess. That's where--

[00:55:40] Ramit: Hayden, you are trying to avoid looking inside and realizing the way that you need to change your relationship with money, and you're disguising it. You're camouflaging it by trying to please Taylor. Oh, if I just do this thing for Taylor, then she will get married to me. But what she really wants is for you to improve yourself and your own relationship with money. She wants you to improve it, whether you're together or not.

[00:56:10] Hayden: I think my goal is similar to Taylor's, fix the holes and prevent future ones. And I think, if I'm being honest, the way that I've been going about it and the conversations that we have, I can see why for her it's like the way that you want to fix these holes and prevent future ones is by me lowering my standards.

[00:56:30] Ramit: What was the thing about lowering standards? Who needs to lower them?

[00:56:34] Hayden: Taylor?

[00:56:37] Ramit: What is happening? Hold on. Am I hearing this wrong?

[00:56:40] Hayden: No, I think you are hearing it wrong.

[00:56:42] Ramit: Okay, okay. Let me clarify.

[00:56:44] Hayden: I think everybody's hearing it wrong.

[00:56:45] Ramit: Okay, okay. Let's take a second to clarify because I want to make sure I'm getting this right. So Taylor said, "I want to fix this. I want to fix the holes." And then Hayden, you said, "I also want to fix the holes. I think the way to do that is--" And then what was the thing about lowering standards?

[00:57:02] Hayden: Yeah, that's where you heard it wrong. I think that I want to fix the holes and prevent future ones. And I feel like with me and her having all of these conversations, something that I'm seeing and something that she's also told me is that my way of going about that is having her lower her standards.

[00:57:23] I'm not saying that that's what should happen or that I want to do, but that has been-- we've been together almost four years now, and that's what I've presented, is like, all right, I don't treat money how you want me to. Can you get over it, basically?

[00:57:37] Ramit: Wow. That's pretty insightful. Yeah, so she first starts off like, "I really want us to be partners. I really want us to be engaged in this, talking about all the time. Okay, fine. We're not going to do that. Okay, fine. Let me design this little cash wallet for you. I just want you to use that. Oh, you're not even going to use that cash wallet. Okay. I just want you to contribute $100 a month. Can you do that?"

[00:57:57] Hayden: Hmm.

[00:57:58] Ramit: Gosh. It's like a downward spiral.

[00:58:02] Taylor: Mm-hmm.

[00:58:03] Ramit: I actually prefer an upward spiral. We're going to get better together. We're going to push each other. Our vision of our rich life is going to get bigger and bigger and richer and more expansive. Now, that's not for everybody. That's my philosophy. I knew that when I was dating one of the core values, I want to look for somebody's who interested in self-development.

[00:58:26] They have to be willing to improve themselves. Could be through fitness, dance, money, whatever. Because that's a core value of mine. I'm going to be wanting to improve myself. Is she? But if it's a downward spiral, that's quite a different relationship. Taylor, what's going on right now?

[00:58:45] Taylor: I'm feeling very heard. I'm feeling very seen because I feel like I've been so resistant to, I'm not going to change my standards. But as you've talked, I feel like I have been giving into that, again, to make the relationship work. And it's like I'm looking at myself like, "Girl, stand up."

[00:59:03] Ramit: Go on. Stand up and what?

[00:59:08] Taylor: I don't know how I'm going to make him, but make him figure it out or leave. Stop with the I'm trying to fix it. I'm trying to fix it. It only works if we both want to fix it and we both are doing something to fix it. So it makes me feel like I'm just waiting around until eventually I just get upset enough that I'm like, "I'm done." And I don't want that either because what I do want is if we are going to break up, I would at least like it to be no hostility, amicable.

[00:59:41] Ramit: Hayden?

[00:59:44] Hayden: Uh-huh.

[00:59:45] Ramit: What do you hear? What do you hear Taylor saying?

[00:59:48] Hayden: What I hear her saying is that she's already lowered her standards, and she's done that by really taking control. I think in an ideal world for her, I'd have it figured out just as much as she does.

[01:00:00] Ramit: Mm-hmm. Keep going.

[01:00:04] Hayden: I also think that we both got to want to fix it, but I think when it comes to me individually, I really have to be the one carrying most of that weight. And I think a struggle that I'm going to have is, I don't know what I'm doing, so I'm going to slip. I'm going to fail at some things. There's going to be times where I miss the mark. And I think-- yeah.

[01:00:29] Ramit: It's interesting, Hayden. You've done this now several times where we talk about something, a change, and your reaction is always to enumerate all the potential problems. A challenge we're going to face. Here's the problem. Here's the problem I've had. Here's the problem that I have right now where she has. The worst case. What about talking about the best case? You ever think about that?

[01:00:56] Hayden: No. No, I guess not.

[01:00:58] Ramit: Yeah. It's quite interesting. It's a very different vision of how the world works. My general philosophy on life is like, we're going to make this [Bleep] good. So let's talk about what happens in the best case.

[01:01:11] Hayden: I think in the best case, I just get my [Bleep] together. I think that's really it. I get my  [Bleep] together. I grow up.

[01:01:18] Ramit: Okay, let's do it right now. Literally right now, in the next three minutes. You want to do it?

[01:01:25] Hayden: Sure.

[01:01:26] Ramit: All right. I'm going to put your CSP up on screen. You tell me what you want to do with it.

[01:01:31] Hayden: Okay. Taylor makes about seven times more than I do, so if our rent is $2,015, I would like to contribute $288 a month to that. Ideally, that's what I would like to do.

[01:01:47] Ramit: Great. You want to contribute more to housing? I like that. What else?

[01:01:52] Hayden: The sinking fund for the vacations, I think we can change that to $400.

[01:01:58] Ramit: Okay.

[01:01:59] Hayden: Yeah. So now we have, what, 98 bucks left over?

[01:02:04] Ramit: Yes. So what really used to happen, at least according to the CSP, is you were spending over $400 more per month than you made. Did you know that?

[01:02:16] Hayden: Yeah, yeah. I remember seeing that on there.

[01:02:20] Ramit: So that can't happen.

[01:02:22] Hayden: Right.

[01:02:22] Ramit: How can you be spending more than you make when your partner is paying your rent?

[01:02:26] Hayden: Mm-hmm.

[01:02:27] Ramit: It just doesn't make any sense.

[01:02:28] Hayden: I'm spending about what I make. That's what I would say.

[01:02:33] Ramit: Okay, so what's the problem here?

[01:02:36] Hayden: It's the amount of money that's available.

[01:02:39] Ramit: That's correct. You don't make enough money. Right now you make about $12 an hour.

[01:02:44] Hayden: Right.

[01:02:45] Ramit: So what do you want to do?

[01:02:47] Hayden: I'm working a lot. I'm working my part-time job, and I'm also doing the real estate a lot. What I can do, I feel like, is what I'm doing right now, which is being engaged in both jobs. So the second job that I have, with the real estate, that was my only job last year. So me picking up the bartending is that second job. So I should be making more money.

[01:03:10] Ramit: Okay. Taylor, is that enough for you?

[01:03:15] Taylor: The planning is what's-- I don't care what he does and what the jobs are. I just want to make sure that we have time for our relationship and for there to be some conscious spending plan, if you will.

[01:03:33] Ramit: You've talked about getting married in the next couple of years. What does that vision look like, Hayden?

[01:03:42] Hayden: I think that it looks very secure without doubt, full of confidence and love.

[01:03:51] Ramit: I like that. What about for you, Taylor?

[01:03:54] Taylor: Yeah, I think that's perfect. Feeling good about our relationship, confident about our relationship, being able to communicate and it being positive and just trust.

[01:04:06] Ramit: Yeah. Taylor, what do you think it would take for you to feel comfortable getting engaged?

[01:04:15] Taylor: I think it would take consistent, what I would call responsible behavior with money, like having a plan, sticking to the plan, having to make tough decisions, and being able to do that.

[01:04:32] Ramit: What do you need from Hayden specifically to trust him with money?

[01:04:37] Taylor: I need for him to be spending less than he makes. I need him to be saving and investing for the future and thinking about our future and that being a priority financially.

[01:04:56] Hayden: I'm not hearing anything new. She's pretty consistent with her message on what she needs.

[01:05:01] Ramit: And do you have any responses to those things that she wants?

[01:05:07] Hayden: For me, I have to keep my happiness in check too, and I feel like that's what I've been worried about, is how much am I willing to give up?

[01:05:19] Ramit: What are you giving up?

[01:05:24] Hayden: Bad habits, but also some freedom.

[01:05:32] Ramit: You both said you want to get married. You both said it's important to you. To me, right now, it doesn't seem like you're moving to towards that. It seems like you are circling. There's elements of the past, and there's just a lot of spinning and talking more about problems than solutions. We can't solve everything here today, but we could try to take a first step. What would that first step be if you were really specific about what each of you is willing to commit to doing? Taylor?

[01:06:10] Taylor: I will commit to being more appreciative of the changes that are happening. I can commit to trying to keep my own levels of worry and stress down so that I'm not panicking as much. And trying my best to focus more on the future ahead and not so much about him making up for the past.

[01:06:44] Ramit: Okay. How about you, Hayden?

[01:06:47] Hayden: I think what I can commit to is just taking it more serious, trying to find ways to go and make more money. And then it being a consistent thought on my mind, and setting goals, making plans, and trying to better my financial situation.

[01:07:07] Ramit: Hayden, do you want to change?

[01:07:09] Hayden: Yeah, of course. I feel overwhelmed since I've met Taylor how much I've had to change. There's been a lot of self-improvement and change that she's demanded from me. This is just something else.

[01:07:23] Ramit: And how do you feel about that?

[01:07:26] Hayden: The feeling of not feeling good enough and stuff creeps in, obviously, if I'm having to change all of these things. But I think that the things that I have changed, being with Taylor have just made my life easier, and it's made me a better person. So with that evidence, I guess, why would this be any different?

[01:07:45] Taylor: Something we've had to talk about is that the things that I've asked for him to change are not inherent parts of who he is, and I think it's important for him to realize that. Maybe doing some things that are irresponsible with money is not who you are. It's a habit that you have. Just because I've asked for you to change, that doesn't mean that you are bad.

[01:08:08] It means that, there are some things that you do that might not be compatible with the goals that we have together. And so some things do need to change. That does not mean you are bad or you inherently are not good enough, or that those are things that are a part of your identity.

[01:08:27] Hayden: Thanks for saying that.

[01:08:28] Taylor: Yeah.

[01:08:30] Ramit: Hayden, how do you feel now versus when we started this conversation?

[01:08:37] Hayden: I guess there's a sense of enlightenment. I see where we stand right now.

[01:08:42] Ramit: Where is that?

[01:08:47] Hayden: The way it's coming across is it's make or break time. Either I do it or I don't.

[01:08:54] Ramit: Mm-hmm.

[01:08:55] Hayden: Yeah.

[01:08:57] Taylor: Do you have overall advice on specific things that we can do just to begin this steps?

[01:09:07] Ramit: I do. I do have specific advice. This is the first time either of you have asked me, and I typically am not very directive, but you asked, so I will be. I think that you'll have to recalibrate your relationship dynamics. And that is hard. Consciously and unconsciously, we don't like change. And the question is, do we have a powerful enough vision to carry us through those difficult times? You obviously want to be together. That's clear.

[01:09:47] My specific suggestion would be that Hayden sets up a book club with Money for Couples, this book. That he leads the reading of that book, and that each week the two of you go through two or three chapters, and he's the one driving it, setting up the meetings, reading it ahead of time, coming up with discussion questions, driving that.

[01:10:12] And Taylor, you're there. You're like, "I'll answer anything. I'll participate, but I'm not going to lead it. I've done that for too long. I want to see you do it." And I think that will be quite revealing because some people are ready to be partners and others are not. And I think Hayden, if it's important to you, ultimately bottom line, you'll do it. You'll find a way to do it.

[01:10:34] So that's the first thing I would do. That's going to open up conversations about what do the two of you want? How are you actually spending money today? Where should you change it? Probably income needs to change. That just needs to happen. And then that money needs to be reallocated correctly.

[01:10:55] And to me, getting the habits right now, when you two are not married, don't have children, that tells me so much. It tells me if you can do it now, you can probably do it even better as your family grows, as your income grows, as your complexity grows. But if you can't get it done right now, it's going to be really hard to change later.

[01:11:17] And you would pretty quickly know how it's going because you'll get through the book, and you'll have much more clarity on what to do. Or you won't get through the book, and that will be quite telling. That would be what I would do step by step. Hayden, do you have any questions that I can answer for you?

[01:11:35] Hayden: I don't know if you're able to answer it, but I would really like some guidance on how I can change my mindset. Because I don't want the mindset that I currently have. That's a big reason why we're here. But it's hard to get out of your own head.

[01:11:51] Ramit: Okay. You tell me.

[01:11:53] Hayden: I tell you what?

[01:11:54] Ramit: How could you do it?

[01:11:55] Hayden: I've got to get really good at telling myself no, telling others no. I guess I want to be there for me.

[01:12:01] Ramit: What does that mean?

[01:12:04] Hayden: I want to do good for me, not just for Taylor.

[01:12:08] Ramit: Okay. I love that. I love that. Great question. I would do a couple of things. Number one, I would find a book and or a program that speaks to you. Read it, consume it, listen to it. But first you want to surround yourself with something that inspires you. Two, I would start to take a leadership role in something that you have been sitting in the backseat on.

[01:12:36] That's why I recommended you leading the conversations about Money for Couples. For too long you've been passive. You let Taylor lead everything, and she's basically telling you, "I'm sick of it. And if I have to keep doing it, I'm out of here." That's what she's telling you.

[01:12:48] So the best way to solve that is to actually step up and take a leadership role. Lead, and tell Taylor-- you set the standards. You say, "Listen, here's where I think I'm going to do a great job. Here's where I think I might not live up to my own standards, but I'm going to ask you to give me a little bit of grace."

[01:13:07] And you tell her exactly how many weeks because you've looked at the book, you've looked at the table of contents, and you made a plan. It's in Google Calendar. The invites are already sent. Basically, you're not waiting for her to save the day because she's not going to.

[01:13:20] That's what I would do. What you're noticing, to change your mindset is often starting from the outside in. Start by setting those meetings. Start by leading. And start by creating a vision for yourself. What is the kind of man I want to be? What are the words that that man embodies? It's probably not passive.

[01:13:43] It's probably not waiting around. Start with those words. Start with learning, surrounding yourself with some positive mindsets, and then most importantly, start with taking action. Act first. The mindsets will often fall. Ultimately, if the two of you want to get married and you want to make changes, you can. All right. I appreciate you both. I'm wishing you both the best.

[Narration]

[01:14:11] Ramit: If you are struggling with how to even start a conversation like this with your partner, I've got a great free resource for you. It's called How to Talk to Your Partner about Money. It includes scripts to help you navigate the tough stuff without starting a fight. You can find it at iwt.com/partner.

[01:14:31] I want to thank Taylor and Hayden for joining me and having some really difficult conversations today, and I want the best for them. I have to admit that I'm not confident Hayden will make the vast changes necessary to create a shared vision of money. But I hope I'm wrong.

[01:14:48] I want to talk about something that I learned the hard way. Early in my career, I thought that success meant taking somebody who had a bunch of debt, showing them my fancy IWT ways, and then they come out of debt with a big old savings account. I thought if I didn't engineer that transformation, I was a failure.

[01:15:09] But after years of doing this, after a book and a Netflix show and all these conversations, I realized I can't force anybody to change. Some people are not ready, and that's okay. And some people are. That's also great. Sometimes people don't need fixing. Sometimes they just need to tell their story.

[01:15:32] But when somebody is ready, and when they have a clear reason, those changes can be fast, and they can be deep, and they can last, and that's why I'm still here with Hayden. Because I think for the first time, I hope he might actually be ready. Now let's check out their follow-ups.

[01:15:49] Taylor: I think that I have to be better about letting Hayden take leadership with certain things, like him being an active participant. Because I think Ramit was absolutely right when he said, "Here Taylor comes just to save the day." And I've got to make sure that I'm not doing that and I'm giving him the opportunity.

[01:16:08] As soon as we got off the meeting, he was doing a pretty good job of going over numbers and then coming to me with what he thought he could do. And he's been bringing them up to me every so often rather than me bringing it up to him. So he's definitely been taking it seriously, taking that leadership role, and being an active participant when it comes to finances.

[01:16:27] Hayden: I have two big takeaways, and that's to drop the excuses and take immediate action. What I've done so far is I've restructured the conscious spending plan. I've restructured my envelope book, and I basically dissected all of my fixed costs and narrowed them down.

[01:16:48] There was a lot of fluff in things that I had to pay for, so I figured out like what I really needed to have paid every month. Those are my fixed costs. So I have formulated a plan to be debt free by August or sooner, dropping my fixed costs from 76% to 56%.