Episode #197: “I thought he was the problem… but it’s me?!”

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[00:00:00] Ramit: Whoa. Chicago. Wow. Now this is what I’m talking about. Making life harder than it needs to be, that’s the theme of Chicagoans and also Indian parents.

[00:00:12] Evelyn: Yeah. I run it through my head with a resentment lens every night.

[00:00:17] Ramit: Show me the compound interest calculation. I’ve been waiting all night.

[00:00:21] Evelyn: Did you see eye rolling?

[00:00:22] Ramit: Yeah. Everyone saw it.

[00:00:25] Evelyn: That was so hot. Let’s go home and get fried.

[00:00:31] Ramit: Wrap it up.

[00:00:33] Evelyn: Feelings are hard for him, so give him a minute.

[00:00:36] Mike: She calls me a robot.

[00:00:37] Ramit: How many fishing poles do you have?

[00:00:39] Mike: Maybe about eight.

[00:00:40] Ramit: Is that normal? Okay, okay, okay. God. Damn.

[00:00:48] Drew: If I include the kids and my ice fishing pole, sure, maybe 20.

[00:00:51] Ramit: 20? Wait. Wait a minute. Thank you for flagging that.

[00:00:59] Evelyn: That’s not why I applied.

[Applause]

[00:01:04] Mike: I definitely saw this coming.

[Laughter]

[Narration]

[00:01:26] Ramit: Today’s episode of Money for Couples is going to be a little bit different. I had the chance to spend several weeks on tour for my new book, Money for Couples, where I had the amazing opportunity to sit down with couples in person, unscripted, on stage, in front of a live audience, and I loved it.

[00:01:46] On today’s episode, you’ll have a chance to see me sit down with two couples live in Chicago, and I’m going to let you in on a little secret. I was only supposed to talk to the first couple for 30 minutes, but their story was so incredible, which you’re going to see and hear today that I just had to keep going. I think you’re going to be surprised by the conversation because I know I was. I also got the chance to sit down with some surprise guests who you may recognize from my Netflix show, How to Get Rich.

[00:02:15] My personal theme for this year is maximalism, and I couldn’t think of a better way to kick off the year than by going on this book tour and seeing you in different cities across the country. It was a ton of fun. You can feel the energy in the room. And I have one more tour stop. It’s in LA, but the event is sold out. So if you would like to get on a waitlist for future events, go to iwt.com/tourwaitlist. Now let’s get to the show.

[Interview]

[00:02:47] Whoa. Chicago, what is going on? Damn. Wow. Now this is what I’m talking about. Great to see everybody. Amazing. You know what? We got to start off with something that I just found out last night. I got to play it for you– the first people I’ve played it for anywhere. I’m telling the truth. I got a voicemail last night. I have to share it with you. Let’s play that voicemail.

[Voicemail Playing]

[00:03:18] Oh my gosh. I can’t believe I’m about to leave this on a voicemail to you, but I’m going to just say on the voicemail, which is huge. Congratulations. Money for Couples is officially a New York Times bestseller. Number three on the How-To, Advice & Miscellaneous list. Congratulations. We’re overjoyed. I hope you are too. It’s an incredible feat. Bravo. Beautifully done. Congratulations. We are so excited. 

[End of Voicemail]

[Applause]

[00:03:50] Ramit: Thank you, thank you, thank you. I didn’t know I was going to get that voicemail, and I did not know that was going to happen. But I have to thank all of you for reading my book, reading my books, reading my material, sharing it with your friends, even when I know they don’t want to hear you talking about this guy Ramit. I know it. I know it.

[00:04:10] By the way, I want to do something fun. Since this is a special night and it’s a one night only, can everybody get that book out and just stand up? I want to take a selfie with everybody. Yes. All right. Oh my God, this looks so cool. Okay. Hold it up. Hold it up high. 1, 2, 3. Amazing. Thank you so much.

[00:04:34] Oh my God. I love Chicago. I love being here. What an amazing city. You guys really don’t give a [Bleep] about pain in this city. I can’t believe it. It’s 12 degrees, and I saw there’s a line out the door. And literally hundreds of people said, “Yes, let’s go to an event about love and money.” What? I went to another city on tour and I was walking outside. There was a lady walking her dog. She was wearing a full winter coat, full, with gloves. It was 61 degrees. Life is hard enough, but you guys actually make it harder on purpose for no good reason. I’ve never been to a city that chooses an official drink, which is the most disgusting thing I’ve ever tasted in my life. What the [Bleep] is wrong with you? Why did you do that? You didn’t have to do it, but you did it anyway.

[00:05:30] What is Malört, anyway? I don’t know, but I don’t want to know. Making life harder than it needs to be, that’s the theme of Chicagoans and also Indian parents. All right. I have had some of my best conversations about money with people in Chicago. And when I finally get them to open up and to talk about what’s really going on, you really never know what to expect, like tonight.

[00:06:00] It’s so rare that people actually talk about what they love to spend money on without shame, just in the possibility phase. I love that. I love hearing real responses from real people, which is what we are going to see tonight with real people who are going to do something I would frankly be terrified to do, and that is come on stage, live, in front of all of us, and share their numbers and share some of their biggest challenges ever. That takes a lot of courage. So I want you to get on your feet and help me give a warm welcome to Evelyn and Mike.

[Applause]

[00:06:39] Ramit: All right. Welcome.

[00:06:47] Evelyn: Thank you.

[00:06:47] Ramit: How’re you doing?

[00:06:49] Evelyn: I’m loving the cold.

[00:06:51] Ramit: All right.

[00:06:51] Evelyn: We’re from Minneapolis, so this is balming.

[00:06:53] Ramit: Ooh. Love it. Mike, how you doing?

[00:06:57] Mike: Pretty good. A little nervous.

[00:06:58] Ramit: All right. Well, the crowd is here for you guys. What do you say?

[Applause] 

[00:07:04] Ramit: That’s what I’m talking about. So who was the one who applied to come and speak today? Evelyn. Okay. Is that common when it comes to money?

[00:07:14] Evelyn: Not money, but things that are fun, yes.

[00:07:18] Ramit: Okay, okay. Evelyn, your application. Made me laugh. You wrote “Deep fried foods at the Minnesota State Fair. When we go, I am always cautious about how much to spend while my spouse buys and eats whatever he desires. ( He eats a lot.) This is indicative of the tension we often have.”

[00:07:50] Okay, first of all, I need to know what are you guys buying at the state fair? Is it this, fried bread? Is it this, whatever that is? Only the brown crew will know what this one is it this? Jalebi. All right. Everyone’s like, what the hell is that? Try it next time you see it. Okay, so what is it?

[00:08:18] Mike: It’s probably more savory, like fried Shepherd’s pie, fried mushroom, fried smelt.

[00:08:25] Ramit: What the hell? You buy this at a state fair?

[00:08:28] Mike: Pretty much anything you want.

[00:08:30] Evelyn: Fried ranch dressing.

[00:08:31] Ramit: Oh, I see why you have a problem with what he orders. I would never order this. So it’s a quantity issue or a quality issue?

[00:08:39] Mike: Quality’s to be determined. You got to try it first.

[00:08:42] Ramit: Good answer. Okay. So let’s see how these conversations actually go. Can you transport yourself back to the last time that you were at the state fair? The smells, the sounds. Let’s have the real conversation. Go ahead.

[00:08:59] Evelyn: Mike, how many things have you eaten today?

[00:09:02] Mike: Not enough.

[00:09:05] Evelyn: Do you really need to get another fried pie dipped in biscoff and honey after eating 14 other fried items? How much have we spent today?

[00:09:15] Mike: One, we can afford it. And two, it’s new. It’s different. We got to try it.

[00:09:21] Evelyn: Oh, bite me.

[00:09:24] Ramit: Okay, can we give it up for them?

[Applause]

[00:09:28] Ramit: I got to say, I appreciate you getting right into that. Sometimes it’s hard for people to go back and they embellish, but that seems pretty real. Would you say that’s pretty authentic?

[00:09:37] Evelyn: Yeah. I run it through my head with a resentment lens every night.

[00:09:41] Ramit: Really? No kidding.

[00:09:43] Evelyn: So that’s why it’s easy to reenact.

[00:09:44] Ramit: Wow.

[00:09:44] Evelyn: I was up here.

[00:09:46] Ramit: There was a lot of body language in there that felt pretty real. There was a bit of eye rolling, right?

[00:09:53] Evelyn: Did you see eye rolling?

[00:09:56] Ramit: Yeah. Everyone saw it.

[00:10:00] Evelyn: It’s a reflex at this point.

[00:10:01] Ramit: Mm. So is this something that happens often?

[00:10:05] Evelyn: The fried food or the conversations?

[00:10:07] Ramit: The conversation?

[00:10:08] Evelyn: Both actually, yeah. We have these on a regular basis.

[00:10:11] Ramit: How often?

[00:10:12] Mike: Even today we were discussing the L train ticket and how it’s $5 for a single day pass and she’s like, well, we got to use as the L more to maximize that $5.

[00:10:25] Evelyn: I was like, “We should just ride it around the city to maximize the $5.”

[00:10:30] Ramit: Wait, this is–

[00:10:34] Evelyn: I’m not even joking.

[00:10:35] Ramit: I know you’re not.

[00:10:37] Mike: We took it from the airport in and then we were taking it to a place for lunch and I was like, “Hey, two trips is equal to $5.” But she’s like, “No, we got to do more trips on it.” I’m like, “It’s fine.”

[00:10:51] Ramit: Okay. So Mike, when you have these conversations, what does it feel like for you?

[00:11:00] Mike: Sometimes she’s joking, but sometimes I think she’s serious and I’m like, “It’s not that big of a deal. We can let it go.”

[00:11:09] Ramit: Can I ask again? What does it feel like for you?

[00:11:13] Evelyn: Feelings are hard for him, so give him a minute.

[00:11:15] Mike: She calls me a robot. It feels like not making any progress.

[00:11:21] Ramit: I don’t know if that’s a feeling. Let’s try it again. Hold on, hold on. All all jokes to aside. I’m serious. And I can understand the difficulty accessing your feelings, Asian guy, Indian guy. It’s not talked about in our cultures. It certainly wasn’t in mine. Can we get the lights up for a second?

[00:11:40] I specifically want to talk to the guys in the room. Are there any guys in here who have trouble accessing their feelings sometimes? I’m putting my hand up first. Look at that. Look at that. So first of all, you’re not alone. Can we give them a round of applause?

[Applause] 

[00:1:55] Ramit: You are not. Thank you. If someone had asked me at 22 or something at young age, what do you feel about X, I would’ve said, “Oh, well, I think blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.” It’s a very intellectual answer. And sometimes getting in touch with their feelings is not a natural skill. So let’s take it slow. But I do want to hear how it feels.

[00:12:18] Mike: Is frustration a feeling?

[00:12:21] Ramit: Yeah.

[00:12:21] Mike: That might be it. I need an emotion wheel to–

[00:12:24] Ramit: I have a wheel of emotions. I got it from our therapist because I had this problem. She’s like, “Try this wheel.” A freaking wine wheel. I know. Sometimes I look at it.

[00:12:34] Mike: We’ve gone through that before, yes.

[00:12:36] Ramit: Okay. It’s very helpful. So frustration at what?

[00:12:40] Mike: That we are having this conversation.

[00:12:42] Ramit: Mm-hmm. That we are, or that she is bringing it up?

[00:12:47] Mike: That I have to rebut what she is saying.

[00:12:51] Ramit: Mm. Do you?

[00:12:55] Mike: No, I can acknowledge her feelings and just ask her why she feels that way. That’d be the good answer.

[00:13:02] Ramit: I’m not looking for the good answer. I’m looking for your answer.

[00:13:07] Mike: She likes to converse, so I feel like we have to. I can’t ignore her. These are very practical answers. As you can see, I’m just wired.

[00:13:16] Ramit: Can we do that role play again, the state fair thing? This time, I love where you just went, you said, I could acknowledge her feelings. Can we just try that for a second? Evelyn?

[00:13:30] Evelyn: How many dishes have you had today?

[00:13:34] Mike: Yeah, I’ve had quite a lot of dishes. Thank you for noticing.

[00:13:37] Evelyn: Do we need to get another one?

[00:13:39] Mike: I don’t know if we need to. It sounds like you have a concern with me getting another dish.

[00:13:46] Evelyn: I think the tapeworm within is satisfied.

[00:13:50] Mike: Yeah. That tapeworm may really like more fried foods. I’m not sure. Is this a concern of yours?

[00:13:58] Evelyn: Have you no restraint?

[00:14:02] Ramit: Evelyn, let’s go with him. He’s trying to make an effort here. So meet him halfway.

[00:14:09] Mike: Are you voicing that you would like me to withhold from eating more?

[00:14:17] Evelyn: That’d be wonderful. Thanks.

[00:14:20] Ramit: Okay. How do you think that went, Evelyn?

[00:14:22] Evelyn: It was unrealistic.

[00:14:25] Ramit: Okay, I agree. But how do you think that he felt?

[00:14:27] Evelyn: Uncomfortable.

[00:14:29] Ramit: Uh-huh. And?

[00:14:30] Evelyn: I appreciate the acknowledgement of my feelings. And if this was real life and not role play, that would’ve been really surprising.

[00:14:39] Ramit: Oh, I guess I didn’t hear you appreciate him.

[00:14:43] Evelyn: I probably didn’t because I did it in my head.

[00:14:47] Ramit: Hmm. Let’s ask the crowd. Did anyone hear Evelyn appreciate him?

[00:14:51] Audience: No.

[00:14:51] Ramit: Okay. Shall we try it again? You can just appreciate out loud. Just take what’s in your head and just say it out loud. Go ahead.

[00:14:58] Evelyn: That was so hot. Let’s go home and get fried.

[00:15:04] Ramit: Wrap it up. So try it again for real.

[00:15:09] Evelyn: Thanks. I appreciate that you are acknowledging my feelings. Maybe we could take something for the road.

[00:15:16] Ramit: Okay. Round of applause. That was great. So it feels uncomfortable and a little contrived. I get that. But did we all see what just happened here? So much resistance. If you zoom out of the conversation that the two of you just had and you pretend it was me and somebody else, what would you observe about the conversation that we had the first time?

[00:15:40] Mike: A lot of back and forth. Not really trying to understand each other and more just arguing.

[00:15:46] Ramit: Uh-huh. Evelyn?

[00:15:48] Evelyn: Yeah, it wasn’t really a conversation. It was just more like we were in our respective corners with our mini Don Kings behind us, massaging us, and getting us ready for the next round.

[00:15:58] Ramit: Oh, I think you were fighting. You were in the ring, and you were each doing your thing, and it wasn’t together. It was individual with their own position. Okay, very insightful. Evelyn, you actually gave us a tour of your basement. Let’s check it out.

[Narration]

[00:16:17] Ramit: We’ll be right back to see Evelyn and Mike’s basement after a short break to support our sponsors.

[00:16:23] Welcome back. Now let’s check out Evelyn and Mike’s basement.

[Interview]

[00:16:27] Evelyn: So for some folks, basements are pretty scary. My basement’s scary too, but for reasons that you may not expect, which is the basement is a fun house for my husband’s hobby– fishing. And as you can see here, there are a few backpacks, 1, 2, 3. We have here a fish finder, an expensive contraption, GPS for finding fish, which I’m sure ancient fishermen also used.

[00:16:52] And then we have a lot of fishing poles here as well as every color plastic and do that under the sea to attract fish. On this side here, what do you see? More fishing poles. And then here behind door number one, we have a kayak of several hundred dollars used exclusively for fishing.

[00:17:13] We live in Minnesota, so there are a lot of lakes, and Mike is doing a great job capitalizing on that at the expense of cold hard cash. And then here, the scary looking thing that I thought belonged to a Russian Mafia member. This actually holds ice fishing poles. And then don’t get me started on these boxes plus the fun noodle. I don’t know why that’s here. Just reminds me of a lot of PayPal transactions that I do not want to see. So that’s why the basement’s scary to me. It is a graveyard for hard earned money.

[00:17:47] Ramit: Okay. All right. Thank you for the tour. How many fishing poles do you have?

[00:17:54] Mike: Maybe about eight in use.

[00:17:57] Ramit: Is that normal? Wait, wow. The crowd has very strong feelings about fishing. Holy [Bleep]. Hey, I’m not trying to get in a fight with any fishing people in here. I don’t know anything about fishing. Okay. What the hell’s happening right now? Is that a lot or a little? That’s a little amount of fishing poles. Okay, okay, okay. God. Damn.

[00:18:23] Drew: If I include the kids and my ice fishing pole, sure, maybe 20.

[00:18:27] Ramit: 20? Wait. Wait a minute. Thank you for flagging that. Okay. What does it mean to you to go fishing?

[00:18:37] Mike: What does it mean to me?

[00:18:40] Ramit: Yeah. Why do you like fishing?

[00:18:42] Mike: I enjoy it. I think the way I look at it is fishing is like a problem to solve. And so every cast, where you cast, what lure you use, what retrieve, it’s all like a fun brain problem that you try to catch a fish. Cool.

[00:18:59] Ramit: Do you go on your own or do you go with others?

[00:19:02] Mike: Generally on my own, but sometimes I’ll take the kids ice fishing. I tried to get her into it, but that didn’t go very well.

[00:19:12] Ramit: Okay. Evelyn, what do you notice about the way you describe the basement and the stuff in it?

[00:19:20] Evelyn: If I was watching that objectively and not as myself, you could tell that I was unhappy and probably a little condescending and not respectful of something that means so much to him.

[00:19:33] Ramit: Okay, okay.

[00:19:34] Evelyn: That being said, on my behalf, I’m just going to say, we’re sitting in a car frequently on a long car trip, and I’m telling him about my hopes and dreams and my shared Rich Life, and then all of a sudden he goes– and I’m like, “Oh, is there a nude lady outside?” And no, it’s a lake. And he’s like, I think I can fish that. That’s what I live with. I’m here spilling my guts. Every time he sees a lake, it’s like a nude lady out the window.

[00:20:05] Ramit: First of all, I appreciate you acknowledging what you said about the basement, but all jokes aside about the lake stuff, what does it feel like when he talks about fishing a lot?

[00:20:22] Evelyn: I wish he saw me as a problem to solve and lured me with things.

[00:20:29] Ramit: Okay.

[00:20:30] Evelyn: It’s funny because I don’t hate fishing. First of all, it does cost money. So that’s the money factor. But I do think that his love for it– he falls asleep to fishing YouTubes. Sometimes I just joke I’m the second woman in his marriage.

[00:20:46] Ramit: Some commonalities. Unhappy with his spending on food at the state fair. Unhappy with his fishing hobby. You mentioned the amount of money for both of those. Are you aware that you comment about his spending a lot?

[00:21:04] Evelyn: Yeah.

[00:21:04] Ramit: Okay.

[00:21:06] Evelyn: Yeah, I do. That’s why we’re here.

[00:21:08] Ramit: Okay. How often do you all talk about money?

[00:21:15] Mike: Fairly regularly. Yeah.

[00:21:17] Evelyn: But not in this nice, calm manner.

[00:21:19] Mike: Yeah.

[00:21:19] Ramit: Oh.

[00:21:20] Evelyn: Yeah.

[00:21:22] Ramit: What?

[00:21:23] Mike: Yeah.

[00:21:24] Ramit: That’s an honest answer. Does it get heated?

[00:21:29] Mike: Maybe heated is not the right word.

[00:21:32] Ramit: What is the word?

[00:21:34] Mike: I think maybe I get upset when I start to try and explain certain things and then it doesn’t get anywhere. And then we table that discussion.

[00:21:46] Ramit: And then you wait until it comes back up again a few weeks later.

[00:21:49] Mike: Yeah, or when we have to make a decision or whatever.

[00:21:51] Ramit: It’s very common. How does it feel when you are critiquing his spending, Evelyn?

[00:22:00] Evelyn: Are you asking me how does it feel when I’m critiquing his spending?

[00:22:02] Ramit: Yeah. How does it feel when you were saying, why are you spending that? There’s dead money here. How does it feel to you?

[00:22:10] Evelyn: That’s a funny question. I feel right, or I feel entitled, probably.

[00:22:18] Ramit: Entitled means?

[00:22:19] Evelyn: Meaning that I have every right to be asking him these questions about his hobbies and how much she spends on them.

[00:22:26] Ramit: Okay. How did you grow up with money?

[00:22:29] Evelyn: We were never on want. I grew up in Silicon Valley. On weekends we would go to my friend’s mansions after their parents’ companies IPO’d. So I grew up around a lot of wealth. At the same time, I don’t think my parents really taught me a whole lot about money, so as a result of that, my general principle in life is just to not spend it.

[00:22:49] Ramit: Let’s all try to understand the clues here. You grew up around incredible wealth. Your parents taught you basically don’t spend it. That’s it.

[00:23:00] Evelyn: No, they were actually very generous, exceedingly generous with their money. They weren’t tech people, but we were never on want. But we went to the Hyatt. We went to France. It was very nice. Drove a Mercedes. But they didn’t ever taught me about how to make money, how to save money, taxes, any of that stuff. So if anything, I was angry that they spent so much on me. They bought me two new cars and I was like, “I never asked for this.”

[00:23:25] Ramit: Wow. What’d you do with the cars?

[00:23:27] Evelyn: I drove them.

[00:23:29] Ramit: Okay, okay.

[00:23:30] Evelyn: But I think as a result of that, I’m a little bit more tight with my purse because I saw that generosity and I didn’t know where it was coming from. And I myself do not feel as generous.

[00:23:42] Ramit: You don’t feel as generous?

[00:23:44] Evelyn: Yeah.

[00:23:45] Ramit: Generous to whom?

[00:23:46] Evelyn: Anybody.

[00:23:48] Ramit: To yourself.

[00:23:50] Evelyn: Even to myself, yeah.

[00:23:51] Ramit: To your husband.

[00:23:53] Evelyn: I definitely don’t feel generous to him. When I go to Trader Joe’s and I see the chicken breast, I will always pick the 5.02-dollar one over the 5.05 to save 3 cents.

[00:24:05] Ramit: Why?

[00:24:05] Evelyn: On a chicken breast. Because it’s easier than actually knowing my finances to just round down to whatever’s cheapest.

[00:24:11] Ramit: Hmm. So your view of the world is, let me spend less.

[00:24:19] Evelyn: Because I don’t really know how much we have. Correct.

[00:24:22] Ramit: Okay. All right. Shall we take a look at the numbers?

[00:24:27] Evelyn: Oh God.

[00:24:30] Ramit: Just pop it up.

[Narration]

[00:24:31] Ramit: I’m about to open Evelyn and Mike’s conscious spending plan, which breaks down their net worth, their income, where they spend their money. You can download a template of the Conscious Spending Plan for free at iwt.com/csp.

[Interview]

[00:24:45] Ramit: Can you refresh everybody of both your ages?

[00:24:48] Evelyn: I’m 21, 20th edition.

[00:24:50] Ramit: Okay. Uh-huh. Thank you.

[00:24:53] Mike: We’re both 41.

[00:24:54] Ramit: Okay, great. So assets, 800,000. Investments, 1 million. Wow. Give it up. You know what? That’s something I love about our community. Sometimes we see people who have hundreds of thousands of debt. Sometimes we see people who are multimillionaires, but each time this crowd supports them, and I love you for that. So thank you. Savings, 177,000. Debt, 520. Total net worth, 1.5 million. Gross annual income, $317,000. That’s a lot, right? What do you think about that?

[00:25:34] Evelyn: I’m employed now, so we’ll see if that goes down.

[00:25:37] Ramit: Wow, that was a depressing answer. All right. Fixed cost, 40%. That’s low. What do we know? All right. You guys can cheer that if you want. Yeah, that’s pretty good. Usually, just for those of you don’t know, typically recommendation, 50 to 60%. Fixed costs are where most people overspend, and it’s where they start to feel stressed out even though they don’t realize it.

[00:26:04] They tend to overspend on two areas– one, house. Two, car. Okay. I’m not trying to get in a fight in the Midwest about trucks. I know my audience. We can talk about that another times. You guys own a truck?

[00:26:20] Evelyn: Hell no.

[00:26:22] Mike: Maybe one day if I have a boat.

[00:26:24] Ramit: Yeah. Okay. All right.

[00:26:26] Evelyn: Cost you one wife.

[00:26:28] Ramit: Investments are around 11%, savings at 24%, which is quite high. That’s 24% of net. Guilt-free spending at 29%. Okay. It sounds a bit high, but great. It sounds a bit high relative to what I think you actually spend. I don’t really think you spend that much, but maybe I’m wrong. All right. Overall, looking at the numbers you prepared, what do you think about them?

[00:26:52] Mike: I’m going to let you answer that because I know what I think.

[00:26:55] Evelyn: I don’t know. Yeah. Like I said, I think in the financial literacy report card, I’m probably a D+. So it sounds great, but I’m a little worried about how much we’re spending guilt-free.

[00:27:10] Ramit: Hmm. That’s very interesting. In the financial literacy scorecard, you’re a D, but in critiquing spending, what are you?

[00:27:23] Evelyn: I’m an A.

[00:27:24] Ramit: Yeah. Mike, you manage the day-to-day finances?

[00:27:30] Mike: For the most part, yeah.

[00:27:31] Ramit: If I were to ask you some question about debt or some ratio or whatever percentage, would you roughly know the answer?

[00:27:38] Mike: I could figure it out, yeah.

[00:27:40] Ramit: Okay. How does it feel to be scrutinized over 5-dollar purchases when you are the one managing the money?

[00:27:50] Mike: That emotion wheel would come in handy again, but again, it’s the frustration of why are we arguing over a 5-dollar thing, whether it’s a ticket, a cup of coffee, one fishing lure.

[00:28:04] Ramit: Hmm. Have you ever sat down and looked at the numbers together?

[00:28:09] Mike: Yeah. Yes. I’ve tried to explain it. We have an advisor, so I’ve tried to review it and try to explain, whether it sticks or not. But I think for you, Evelyn, it doesn’t really matter about what you see because it’s how you feel about money.

[00:28:28] Ramit: Because money is not just numbers on a page as we see right here in front of us. Hmm.

[Narration]

[00:28:36] Ramit: I just want to cut in quickly because this is a dynamic I see with a lot of couples, and it is the reason that I always say it is crucial for both partners to be involved in the family finances. You cannot just have one money person. What’s happening here is Evelyn is essentially bearing her head in the sand when it comes to her family finances, which allows her to continue her personal story of we don’t have enough.

[00:29:04] If Evelyn were involved in managing the money or if she were willing to even sit down and review their finances on a monthly basis, she would start to understand where they actually are with their finances. They’re actually more than fine. But because she intentionally turns away from understanding their financial picture, she has created this story of scarcity. It’s not real, but it feels real to her. Your feelings matter. Your feelings are real. But your feelings also can lie to you.

[00:29:40] I’m curious to know why. Why is she doing it? Mike says he tries to include her in the conversations around money. He’s tried to help her understand where they were with their money, but she avoids it. And I want to know, where does it come from? Listen in as I push her to understand more.

[Interview]

[00:29:55] Ramit: Evelyn, I’m curious, why have you not learned about your family finances?

[00:30:01] Evelyn: I remember as a child, when we would go to Target or Safeway, which is a grocery store, I would always run away at the end when my mom was totaling the– you know the cash register gives you a receipt and totals the bill.

[00:30:13] Ramit: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:13] Evelyn: And I just remember viscerally always wanting to run away.

[00:30:15] Ramit: Mm-hmm. Why?

[00:30:16] Evelyn: And I didn’t want to know how much it cost. I don’t know why that is. Probably should unpack that with a therapist. But I think that carries over where I don’t like dealing with the numbers, for whatever reason. I will say that this probably looks good, but where my chief frustration is is I just want limitations. So if Mike said, I’m going to spend $500 a year on fishing, be with God. Go for it.

[00:30:42] Ramit: Okay. Mike, what’s your reaction right there?

[00:30:46] Mike: Every time we’ve had that conversation, we’ve come back to the, well, what is the starting number? How do we agree on a starting number? Separately, how do we track it? And that’s always going to fall into me to have to create a number that she agrees to, and then individually track everything, which that’s not worth my time.

[00:31:05] Ramit: Can I ask you a question?

[00:31:06] Mike: Yeah.

[00:31:07] Ramit: Have you ever asked her to come with a number and to explain it?

[00:31:14] Mike: I haven’t. If she would love to want to do that, I welcome it.

[00:31:23] Ramit: Hold on. Notice the role that each of you have fallen into. You’re at opposite ends of the ring. So one person says, if only he came up with a number. We need limits. I would be perfectly fine. Mike is over here shaking his head like, no, we’ve tried that. But then when you dig into it, you accept the premise, Mike, that you are the one who has to come up with the number. Why?

[00:31:52] Mike: Because she’ll throw a random number out that I probably won’t agree with.

[00:31:59] Ramit: Do you ask her, where’d that number come from? What does it mean to you?

[00:32:04] Mike: Yeah, if I asked that, I think she was just like, “That sounds how much I would want you to spend at most. I don’t know. I’ll let you–“

[00:32:10] Ramit: Evelyn, would you agree? Would you come up with it?

[00:32:12] Evelyn: There’s a lot of assumptions wrapped up in there. We have friends who track their budgets very tightly and have a line item for travel, a line item for clothing, a line item for toys. And I think maybe that’s what I think I want, is just some limitations so that we can have more freedom versus having to make micro decisions about every little purchase. And then in that case, I’ll just spend the least and he’ll just spend whatever he wants.

[00:32:34] Mike: Go ahead, Mike. But we’re older. We don’t need to track every line item. We can do a top-down approach.

[00:32:42] Evelyn: Yeah. But I think for me it’s less, again, about the actual money statistics and more about the feeling of having limitations.

[00:32:48] Ramit: Then why are we not talking about feelings and we’re talking about a spreadsheet?

[00:32:52] Evelyn: Because the tangible is always easier than the intangible.

[00:32:55] Ramit: Yeah. Many of us chase the idea of a budget for our entire lives, and we self-flagellate. It’s in many ways very religious. We punish ourselves as if that pain means that we are doing the right thing when ultimately all along, we don’t actually need 500 lines on a budget. I don’t have a budget. I track four key numbers. I know my numbers. I trust myself. I trust even if I make a mistake, I will catch it. And then I spend more time working on this, the feeling of money, feeling good, feeling joyous, feeling all those things.

[00:33:39] How much time do you spend feeling good about money?

[00:33:42] Evelyn: Probably none.

[00:33:43] Ramit: Okay. That’s what I thought. Evelyn, what did your mom teach you about money?

[00:33:48] Evelyn: My mother?

[00:33:49] Ramit: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:49] Evelyn: Well, she didn’t work much and she liked nice things in life and never really talked about how much those things cost. So that’s part of it. That’s pretty much it. Money is a ways to enjoy your life.

[00:34:06] Ramit: What were the conversations about money in your family?

[00:34:09] Evelyn: I don’t think we really had any. And I’m very fortunate where I went to two expensive schools that my parents paid for. I, in some ways, resent them because I wish I felt the pain of those things more so I could understand it better. That sounds really bougie in first world.

[00:34:26] Ramit: No, that’s a huge clue. Say it again.

[00:34:29] Evelyn: I wish my parents allowed me to suffer a little bit more in terms of money so I could understand more about it.

[00:34:38] Ramit: Aren’t you suffering now?

[00:34:40] Evelyn: I am. I am suffering now. But unfortunately, it’s my new family that’s suffering.

[00:34:44] Ramit: That is correct. Wow, that’s very insightful. So you wish that your parents made you “suffer.” That’s an interesting choice of words. Some might say, I wish my parents taught me about money, but it’s an interesting choice. I wish my parents made me suffer, but they didn’t.

[00:35:03] I resented them for not. In fact, I resented them for giving me these cars. And because of this story that I told myself from years ago, I wish they made me suffer, I’m now going to make myself suffer. How? By not learning the numbers, by instead policing my husband’s eating and fishing. Again, y’all make a lot of money in a relatively low cost of living area, I think. Certainly not a very high cost of living city and suffer. What do you think about that?

[00:35:39] Evelyn: I don’t know if I want to introduce another dimension because I don’t know if we have time. But the reason why we make so much money is also because I look for jobs that make a lot of money because I don’t actually know how much our financial situation is.

[00:35:51] So in some ways, there’s good parts of this lack of knowledge, is that I will just pursue things that– I’ve made more money than him for the last six, seven years. And in some ways, I feel like even if I don’t know the numbers, I’m contributing more to them. And also, at the same time, I’m not spending as much. So even–

[00:36:12] Ramit: And what does that make you?

[00:36:14] Evelyn: Better.

[00:36:17] Ramit: Do you really believe that?

[00:36:19] Evelyn: I probably do subconsciously. Yeah.

[00:36:22] Ramit: What did your mom say about your dad when you grew up?

[00:36:25] Evelyn: What’d she say about him?

[00:36:26] Ramit: Mm-hmm.

[00:36:31] Evelyn: He was a self-made person, I think. I still don’t know what he really did to this day. And I guess she wished that he made more, maybe. But I’m choosing my words carefully because my dad’s still alive, and if he watches this, I don’t want him to feel humiliated.

[00:36:50] Ramit: Okay. So she was critical of his earning abilities?

[00:36:55] Evelyn: I don’t know about critical. Again, all this stuff was like sheep rolls over our eyes. I did not know really where anything was coming from at any time. I suspect there was tension about keeping up with the Joneses because we lived in Silicon Valley, which everybody’s rich. So I suspect there was tension there. And then because my mom and dad didn’t have traditional jobs, there was just a huge gap of knowledge about what it means to make money.

[00:37:18] Ramit: Hmm. Do you see any similarities between your parents’ relationship with money and yours?

[00:37:25] Evelyn: Yeah. The fact that I’m perpetuating not really knowing.

[00:37:28] Ramit: Not knowing. What else?

[00:37:30] Mike: Pushing me to earn more.

[00:37:31] Evelyn: Pushing him to earn more.

[00:37:33] Ramit: Yes.

[00:37:33] Evelyn: I think I spend less than they do.

[00:37:37] Ramit: Okay. So what else? How about comparison?

[00:37:40] Evelyn: Comparisons? Yeah.

[00:37:41] Ramit: We should be making this. Our friends make more, that kind of thing.

[00:37:45] Evelyn: Yes. And again, this is another corollary, which is Mike and I spent a lot of our lives first in our 30s working for nonprofits because we’re very idealistic, we’re religious, and I feel a little resentment now because I feel like we’re behind. I didn’t start working in the private sector till almost three years ago. He was at a nonprofit for seven years.

[00:38:08] Ramit: So if you’re behind, that means?

[00:38:10] Evelyn: We need to make more.

[00:38:11] Ramit: Okay. So basically life is, we are behind. Even though I don’t know the numbers at all, I just feel behind. And so therefore we need to get the cheapest chicken, no fishing gear, no funnel cakes. I understand. And then when does it end? When do you have enough?

[00:38:30] Evelyn: It doesn’t end.

[00:38:31] Ramit: Right. That’s it. That’s life. You live here, you raise your kids here, and then you die feeling like you never had enough. Does anybody know people like this? This is their life. This is it. And why? Because they didn’t take the time to learn the two parts of a Rich Life.

[00:38:54] Number one, know your numbers. It’s not hard. You two are obviously very intelligent. It’s not hard. It’s just like learning the basic language of money. It’s very simple. And two, learn how to master your money psychology. Two things. They’re not hard, but they take an effort.

[Narration]

[00:39:10] Ramit: The way Evelyn describes her wishlist or what I’ll call rules of engagement around money are very telling. She says she wishes her parents made her suffer. She wants to have limitations around money, and she just gave me a major clue that explains the language she uses around money, which is that she is religious.

[00:39:31] Now, I see this combination with lots of people. When people tell me that they need to be limited, they even use phrases like, I like when my partner puts me in my place. Sometimes I get too crazy. We have religious issues often. Not always, but often. We also often have gender issues. Again, not always, but often. And sometimes we have people who simply believe, if you let me do what I’m going to do, I’ll go crazy. I’m out of control.

[00:40:00] Therefore, I need someone to keep me grounded. You hear this all the time. Whenever I see somebody saying, I need limits put on me, I’ll often ask them, are you religious? And often they have these beliefs they grew up with, that they’re born in sin. And if you don’t have limits and restraints, you’re not virtuous. And also, I find that people who use these phrases about wanting limits often want approval from an authority figure.

[00:40:27] That authority figure could be God. It could be your parents. Sometimes it’s me. But the ultimate lesson of a Rich Life is that you do not need anyone’s permission to live it. You certainly don’t need mine. I don’t know about God. That’s between you and God. But the ultimate lesson of living a Rich Life is that it starts right here.

[00:40:47] And the tricky part of designing your Rich Life is that once you leave your parents’ home, once you become an adult, there is no natural authority to take on that role. I suspect that’s partially why Evelyn applied to talk to me in the first place. Now, I’m glad I have all this information. I’m glad I understand the context a little bit more because now we can work to bridge these things together.

[00:41:11] What Evelyn doesn’t know yet is that she can absolutely be religious and feel good about money. That is the challenge for me to help her understand. And I’m curious if there are also some gender roles here since Evelyn has historically earned more than Mike. Listen as I include the audience to help Evelyn understand she’s not alone.

[Interview]

[00:41:31] Ramit: I am curious for the ladies in the audience, how many were told, by a show of hands, you cannot rely on a man for money? Wow. Look at that. Look at that. And second question, how many of you were told to keep a secret account? Look at that. Wow. Hmm. Evelyn, how much of this is gender issues, cultural issues? How much of this dynamic do you think has some of that to bear here?

[00:42:14] Evelyn: I’m sure some of it is cultural. We’re Asian, so there’s a certain level of frugality, at least in our culture that comes with that. His mom is fairly frugal, so I can identify with that on his side. And then from a gender perspective, I don’t know if there’s so much of that as much. He has no issues with me making more money than he does.

[00:42:39] Ramit: What if he made more than you?

[00:42:42] Evelyn: Great.

[00:42:42] Ramit: Yeah? Is that for real or is that a joke?

[00:42:45] Evelyn: For real. He got a job this year and I think the amount of time we spent arguing on me asking him to negotiate higher, it was a lot of arguments.

[00:42:53] Ramit: Can I ask you, what if you simply didn’t do that?

[00:42:58] Evelyn: I would probably need some sort of violent hobby.

[00:43:03] Ramit: My wife has her own business.

[00:43:05] Evelyn: Yes.

[00:43:06] Ramit: I’m an entrepreneur. I’ve been entrepreneur for a long time. I could certainly critique her. I could tell her like, “Your funnel is not optimized the way I would do it,” or something. How do you think that would affect our relationship, me telling her how to run her business?

[00:43:24] Evelyn: I think if it was said lovingly in the right context, she might invite it. But if it was uninvited–

[00:43:30] Ramit: [Bleep] that.

[00:43:30] Evelyn: Uninvited, she probably wouldn’t appreciate it.

[00:43:32] Ramit: Oh, that was a totally wrong answer. I told him before, there’s no wrong answers on stage. That was the wrong answer. I’ll tell you something. I understand encouraging your partner to negotiate their salary if they don’t know how, or if you’re early on and or you don’t have a lot of money and you need money to feed your family. I understand that.

[00:43:55] You have to be aggressive. I get that. I wonder when you turn the page and shift from, “We need to get more and spend less to”, turn the page, “We need connection.” What is more valuable to you right now? An extra $1,000 or connection?

[00:44:19] Evelyn: $1,000.

[00:44:21] Ramit: Put that CSP back up on screen. Evelyn, I don’t want jokes. I want a serious answer.

[00:44:25] Evelyn: I know. I’m serious. And I’ll also say that. I know it sounds like I’m this terrible person, but it gets us things. I asked for a 10,000-dollar credit when we got our new house because I was like, “We need money to repair something.” He’s like, “Oh, I don’t really know if we want to.” We got the 10K.

[00:44:39] Ramit: Wow. That’s so cool.

[00:44:43] Evelyn: You know what I mean? It’s not like it’s always just going to impact your relationship badly. Sometimes he admits that it’s got to be pushed.

[00:44:48] Ramit: Hey, Evelyn. What I noticed, you’re just talking a lot to avoid what the actual important issue is here. Have you noticed you do that?

[00:44:56] Evelyn: The relationship, right?

[00:44:57] Ramit: Yeah. Look at those numbers. You’re 41. You have a million dollars invested. Do you want me to show you how much you’re going to have?

[00:45:08] Evelyn: Sure.

[00:45:09] Ramit: All right. Before I show that, before I show that– I love the enthusiasm, “Yes, show me the compound interest calculation. I’ve been waiting all night.” Has anyone been listening to anything that’s happening on stage? You said, “I wish someone would tell me that I have enough and for me to believe them.”

[00:45:37] Without even looking at how much you’re going to have, would it make a difference if some random person told you, you have enough? Let’s find out. Hey, one person, can you just say, tell her if she has enough.

[00:45:48] Audience: You have enough.

[00:45:50] Ramit: Wow. Do you believe them? Wait, let’s let her share her feelings. Go ahead.

[00:45:58] Evelyn: I think this is one of those moments where I know that I’m supposed to feel a certain way, but my heart has not caught up.

[00:46:05] Ramit: Okay. I love that answer. Give a round of applause. That’s a very honest answer. Wow. Okay. Ah, I love that. You know you’re supposed to feel like that, but your heart hasn’t caught up. And so your conclusion has been, what?

[00:46:25] Evelyn: It’s fall back on what is natural to me, which is to be stingy and to critique.

[00:46:31] Ramit: That’s right. That’s right. And what is the cost of that, Mike? Mike, this is your chance to be honest.

[00:46:39] Mike: My patience. No.

[00:46:41] Ramit: Say it in a full sentence. I want to hear it.

[00:46:43] Mike: The cost of Evelyn’s critique and stinginess is unhappiness to some extent.

[00:46:50] Ramit: Mm-hmm. You’re unhappy. Is that what you mean?

[00:46:52] Mike: Sometimes, yeah. About that stuff, yeah. We don’t need to have this conversation. Instead, we can enjoy life. Admittedly she’s gotten better, but–

[00:47:04] Ramit: Wait, wait, wait. Hang right there. You just said something very powerful. Evelyn, he says, “Sometimes I’m unhappy. We don’t have to have this conversation. Instead, we could talk about money in a different way.” How do you respond to that? Think very carefully before you respond. How do you want to respond to that? Because I find that incredibly honest.

[00:47:29] Evelyn: I agree that something needs to change, which is why we’re on the stage.

[00:47:34] Ramit: Great. That’s a great answer. Okay. We ran a calculation, simple calculation. By retirement, you will have around $7 million. $7 million. So I’m telling you, Evelyn and Mike, you will have enough. Do you believe me?

[00:48:02] Evelyn: You know what’s funny? Because the back of my head, it’s like, we need to check those numbers again.

[00:48:07] Ramit: We need to do some math. Math is where I feel comfortable.

[00:48:10] Evelyn: Did Mike report correctly?

[00:48:11] Ramit: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:13] Evelyn: So that just tells you that I still have work to do.

[00:48:16] Ramit: I noticed that when things get honest, you go back into storytelling. And your stories are sometimes jokes. They’re sometimes jabs. It’s very much like we’re on a sitcom, The Costanza’s, that type of thing. It’s very much like that. And I think that to you it’s comfortable.

[00:48:40] To me, it’s not. It would be one thing if you were struggling with money. If you were making $30,000 a year and you have kids, I would understand the frustration, and we’d have a different conversation. It’s not comfortable to me because I see a multimillionaire couple here, which you are. You just need time to let it cook. But I see a couple that is playing so small that you are literally critiquing your husband over sweets at the state fair. Tell me the reaction you have.

[00:49:17] Evelyn: I also, myself, admit that my view on money has very little to do with our numbers, so I agree with that part.

[00:49:28] Ramit: And what do you want to do about it?

[Narration]

[00:49:29] Ramit: We’ll hear Evelyn’s answer after a quick break to support our sponsors.

[00:49:33] Now back to the show. Let’s hear what Evelyn is prepared to do to change her mindset around money.

[Interview]

[00:49:39] Evelyn: My view on money has very little to do with our numbers. I agree with that part.

[00:49:43] Ramit: And what do you want to do about it?

[00:49:45] Evelyn: I need to work on that.

[00:49:46] Ramit: How?

[00:49:48] Evelyn: I am a spiritual person, so in my religion it would be praying and also having behaviors that are more open-minded and generous and self-reflecting than they currently are.

[00:50:06] Ramit: I like that. Shall we do it right now?

[00:50:10] Evelyn: Which part?

[00:50:11] Ramit: Well, maybe not a prayer, but let’s do some behavior stuff. Let’s do a little bit of work on not the numbers part, but the feelings and psychology part. So let’s say you are a worrier. That’s one of the four money types. It’s very common. People worry about money, and worriers worry regardless of how much they have. Many times they don’t even know how much they have. It doesn’t matter. Because I just showed you you’re going to have $7 million. Most people, when they heard they were going to have $7 million, how do you think they would react?

[00:50:47] Evelyn: How would most people react?

[00:50:48] Ramit: Yeah.

[00:50:49] Evelyn: Happily.

[00:50:51] Ramit: Well, why don’t we ask the crowd? Hey, everybody, what if I told you you’re going to have $7 million? What the [Bleep]?

[00:50:59] Do you see that? Again, I’m not coming down on you. I’m trying to unpeel these layers. I’m trying to show you that $7 million in any city, in any country in the world is a huge amount of money.

[00:51:13] And the lenses that you are wearing– right now, Mike has actual lenses on, but you also have lenses, and they are coloring everything you see. Because the only reaction that the majority of people would have to $7 million is, oh my God. The same thing that the crowd had. But yours was not that. I don’t even think you felt that.

[00:51:41] Evelyn: That’s correct. You’re right.

[00:51:42] Ramit: I think that you feel restriction. I think that you feel scared of money. I think you worry a lot. And I think that rather than looking inward, it’s very easy to look at the Trader Joe’s price and look at your husband’s fishing poles.

[00:51:56] Evelyn: And look at my friends and see what they’re making.

[00:51:59] Ramit: Yes, yes. So let’s change it. Because you have kids, don’t you?

[00:52:04] Evelyn: We have three girls.

[00:52:05] Ramit: What’s the age of the oldest?

[00:52:08] Evelyn: So we have a 8-year-old, a 7-year-old, and a 4-year-old.

[00:52:11] Ramit: Okay. Congratulations. What does the oldest think about money?

[00:52:16] Mike: We’re trying to teach to them about money by having chores and allowance. So she’s understanding things aren’t just free or like, I can’t have everything. If she wants something that I don’t want to buy, then we can tell her, well, then you can use your allowance money that you earned. So she’s learning, I think.

[00:52:37] Ramit: I like that.

[00:52:37] Mike: She’s understanding.

[00:52:38] Ramit: First of all, round of applause for any parent who teaches their kids about money. Amazing. At any age. I appreciate that. What is she learning about her mom and money? Evelyn?

[00:52:50] Evelyn: I don’t know what she’s learning.

[00:52:52] Ramit: That’s why we brought her out tonight, everybody.

[00:52:55] Evelyn: I wish. I don’t know what she’s learning, but we implemented this new system in the summer, and I think it is bearing fruit. I can see the wheels in her turning in her head, like cost-benefit analysis. So hopefully that leads to good things. True. Right?

[00:53:11] Ramit: That’s good. Can I just cut to the chase? I’m just going to tell you what I think is going to happen. I think that three girls seeing a mom who worries constantly about money, they are soon going to see over and over and over that the role of mom is to worry about money.

[00:53:29] The role of mom is to critique dad. The role of mom is to shrink herself because spending less makes you virtuous, and that is what they’re going to do in their future relationships. How does that strike you?

[00:53:45] Evelyn: You’re probably right.

[00:53:46] Ramit: Do you want your daughters 25 years from now to be worried, wracked with guilt while they have a high-paying job, critiquing their husband, husband not feeling good about it? Do you want that?

[00:54:01] Evelyn: No.

[00:54:02] Ramit: Okay. I think the stakes are higher than we even realize. It’s not about the basement. It’s not about $10 here and there. It’s about the messages that we receive generation after generation. So I’m going to give you a couple of things you can do immediately. Some advice for the worrier. Evelyn, what do you get out of worrying?

[00:54:30] Evelyn: I get an expectation that will not feel as hard if it comes to life.

[00:54:38] Ramit: Good. What else? When you’re in the process of critiquing, how do you feel? You said it before.

[00:54:45] Evelyn: Right.

[00:54:45] Ramit: Yeah, you feel right or righteous.

[00:54:47] Evelyn: Yes.

[00:54:48] Ramit: I’m right. He has to defend himself. Worst case scenario, you spend $6 on chicken breast, you get an extra whatever thing at the restaurant. Worst case scenario, after 25 years, where are you?

[00:55:07] Evelyn: The same place?

[00:55:09] Ramit: $7 million in the bank compounding every single day?

[00:55:13] Evelyn: Yeah, probably.

[00:55:15] Ramit: Hmm.

[00:55:16] Evelyn: This is not what I expected it to be tonight, by the way. I would’ve prepared myself better, done some more pushups.

[00:55:24] Ramit: Sometimes the things we have to do are not obvious and they’re actually the most important.

[00:55:28] Evelyn: Do you have nothing for him? Is it all going to be me? That’s not why I applied.

[00:55:41] Mike: I definitely saw this coming.

[00:55:57] Ramit: You are doing great. You’re doing great. This takes a lot of courage. You’re both doing it. This crowd knows what is happening right now. I know that right now the lights are on. There’s a lot of noise. This is not a normal situation. I know that. But I can tell you this crowd knows just by the applause they just gave. They can see that something is about to happen. And they can see that both of you are being honest.

[00:56:24] I know, Mike, it’s not easy for you to talk about feelings. I know that. But I recognize that you are trying. And Evelyn, I know that it’s not easy for you to talk about this. And I think you would be much more comfortable with us talking about, are you compounding at the correct rate? But that’s not what’s really important.

[00:56:40] It’s your relationship and it’s your kids that is important. And we are looking at all of these things through the lens of money tonight. So stick with me. I asked, what is the worst that can happen if you loosened up a little bit? And you said, “Maybe nothing.” Maybe you end up with $50,000 less at retirement.

[00:57:08] There’s no material difference for your lifestyle if you lose 50, 100,000 $250,000. Not lose, spend. And more importantly, now think about your partner. Let’s fast forward. You have two paths in the road. 20 years from now, your partner can feel how he feels today, but compounded. How do you think he would feel 20 years from now, still getting critiqued about random expenses?

[00:57:35] Evelyn: He’d probably tune me out at some point.

[00:57:37] Ramit: That’s going to happen soon. What happens then?

[00:57:42] Evelyn: Then we grow apart.

[00:57:43] Ramit: Yes. It’s a lack of connection. It’s not great for you. It’s not great for your kids to see. It’s not great for anybody. And all for what? Because you actually have enough money and there’s actually no reason for it. We’re going to do a little something called the worry box. We’re going to take some of your worries and we’re just going to put them in a box and we’re going to lock them up. We’re going to let them. I used to do this when I was in college.

[00:58:08] Freshman year, you’re meeting a lot of people. You’re a little anxious about stuff. Before I went to sleep, sometimes I would mentally take some of these things, take that thing, put it in a box, seal it up, and I knew it was in the box. I could go to sleep then. So let’s do that right now. What is an expense that you worry about that is completely inconsequential?

[00:58:29] Evelyn: Oh, it’s me again? Okay. Inconsequential. He just lost his auger in–

[00:58:36] Ramit: What is that?

[00:58:37] Evelyn: So it’s like a drill, and he lost it on the bottom of a lake.

[00:58:41] Ramit: Okay. I wish I hadn’t asked this question. There’s nothing I care less about than tools.

[00:58:45] Evelyn: I told him I would actually go dive in into this frozen lake to go get it instead of him having to buy it.

[00:58:50] Ramit: What the [Bleep]? What? Damn. Okay, so that was not what I was asking. I thought you were going to say like a stick of gum. It only cost a dollar. I’m not going to worry about it anymore. You got anything like that? Chicken?

[00:59:05] Mike: Right before the show, I was like, “Hey, I’ll buy you dinner.” And she was asking like, “Okay, what’s nearby that we can pick up?” And I was like, “Sweetgreen.” And your first response was, “Well, it’s expensive.” And I was like, “It’s fine. We’ll buy you a Sweetgreen salad.”

[00:59:18] Ramit: Hold on. Gross annual income, $317,904. What the [Bleep]? This is our worry box. Are you comfortable putting this in the worry box?

[00:59:28] Evelyn: My Sweetgreen salad?

[00:59:29] Ramit: Yes. Something that you are not going to worry about anymore. You’re not going to worry here, here, and you’re certainly not going to worry about it with your partner. If he wants Sweetgreen, buy the Sweetgreen.

[00:59:42] Evelyn: Sure.

[00:59:43] Ramit: Okay. That was the least convincing answer I ever heard. Should we go smaller? I don’t mind. You tell me. Do you understand the concept of what we’re doing right now?

[00:59:52] Evelyn: I understand the concept, but are you basically giving a carte blanche to buy whatever we want all the time?

[00:59:56] Ramit: Yes, yes.

[00:59:57] Evelyn: So if you want to buy a 30,000-dollar fishing boat tomorrow, you’re like, “Go do it.”

[01:00:00] Ramit: No. We’re not talking about fishing boat. We’re talking about Sweetgreen.

[01:00:05] Evelyn: Principle’s the same.

[01:00:06] Ramit: Do you notice that you immediately assume that your partner will do the worst?

[01:00:12] Evelyn: Yes, because he’s been talking about a fishing boat for quite some time.

[01:00:16] Ramit: I’m looking at your numbers right now. I don’t see any evidence of any irresponsible spending. If anything, I see extremely high income, very low fixed costs. I have no concerns that one of you is going to trip, fall, and spend all of your money. Zero.

[01:00:29] And honestly, what a way to go through life, to worry about all the things that can go wrong with my partner, father of our children. Instead of saying, “Babe, I trust you. I love you. I know that if you were ever going to make a major decision, we would talk about it. But in general, I trust you.” What about that?

[01:00:49] Evelyn: I would like to get to that place. I’m not there right now.

[01:00:51] Ramit: I agree. But let’s start. Let’s pick something that jointly the two of you have carte blanche to spend on. What is it?

[01:01:01] Evelyn: Food.

[01:01:05] Ramit: Okay, food.

[01:01:05] Evelyn: That’s a big expense, so yeah.

[01:01:07] Ramit: Like, eating out?

[01:01:08] Evelyn: He likes buying prime meat versus choice meat.

[01:01:11] Ramit: Great. Love it. So, for example, if you were to say, “I want to get this steak,” what would your reaction be?

[01:01:17] Evelyn: I think the old Evelyn would be like, “How much did it cost?”

[01:01:19] Audience: Great.

[01:01:20] Evelyn: And the new Evelyn would be like, “Go for it. Let’s eat some meat tonight.”

[01:01:27] Ramit: Yo, that was pretty good. Okay. You know what I love? I love that you are in this with us. I know that it takes a while to feel it here. I know that. But sometimes the way to feel it is just to say it over and over and to notice your reaction, your partner’s reaction.

[01:01:49] We can actually use money to bring us together, and it can start with something quite modest, a Sweetgreen. If my partner wants to get a salad, what difference does it make for a couple with your kind of finances if he wants to get extra chicken or if she wants to go to this place versus that?

[01:02:10] It makes no difference. And there’s actually a beauty in abundance. We’re talking about your husband saying, I want to get sweet green and you responding joyfully, not critically. And compound that one times, 10 times, 1,000 times. He will start to see the two of you building a connection. You will actually start to feel it. And by the way, your daughters will see it. It’s going to take work. Do you see what I’m getting at?

[01:02:41] Evelyn: I see what you’re getting at. I will admit that it’ll take me a while.

[01:02:44] Ramit: Okay, fair enough. Another thing that I want to point out is in addition to some work that you have to do here, which I would actually recommend speaking to a therapist, I’m always de-stigmatizing mental health. My wife and I have gone. It’s so helpful. I think it would be great, and I would also encourage individual.

[01:03:03] I think it’s awesome. I want to point out that it is very easy to critique others when you don’t have skin in the game. I’ve taken some friends on trips and the first couple times I did it, I just planned everything because I loved to travel and I got a lot of this. Let me show you.

[01:03:24] Real, like, why did we have to go here? This is taking too long– that kind of thing. And I took an honest inventory and realized what was going on. And what do you think was going on in those trips? I was planning it all. I was doing all the logistics. So I made a shift, which is every person was responsible for at least half a day. Skin in the game.

[01:03:44] And when you realize how hard it is to plan something, suddenly you have a lot of generosity for the other people. What would that look like if you put skin in the game with your finances as opposed to Mike managing all of it?

[01:03:57] Evelyn: Yeah. I think to your earlier point about setting limits and stuff. I should probably understand our numbers better and then maybe we can work on it together, versus currently, my view is, I’ll make the money and then you will manage it. And I think that is not a pro–

[01:04:13] Ramit: And then you will critique it constant.

[01:04:16] Evelyn: Yes, yes. So that is the toxic relationship we have right now.

[01:04:22] Ramit: Mm-hmm.

[01:04:24] Evelyn: To detox it, I need to learn more about our finances and have skin of the game, to your point.

[01:04:28] Ramit: Love that. Great. And Mike, you have to be willing to stand up and to say, let’s talk about what that looks like. Here’s my expectation for you. Here’s what I learned. I learned these four numbers, etc. I will help you as much as you want, but my expectation is that you read this book, I Will Teach You to Be Rich, Money for Couples, etc. Is that you understand these numbers, and let’s talk about it. My expectation is that you plan our next money meeting, because I want to talk about this. I’ve been wanting to talk for a long time. Do you think you can do that?

[01:05:07] Mike: Yeah, I can definitely ask her to try.

[01:05:13] Ramit: Hmm. Let me ask that again. Do you think you can do that?

[01:05:19] Mike: In my head, I was like, “Yes, I can ask her to do that.” I also foresee the million questions that may come with trying that.

[01:05:27] Ramit: Mm-hmm. And when she asks you a million questions, what are you going to do?

[01:05:31] Mike: Affirm, acknowledge, and not–

[01:05:35] Ramit: Go ahead.

[01:05:38] Mike: Yeah. Again, in my head, I think, yes, affirming, acknowledging, that she’s trying, would be the good answer. I think part of me would probably just like, well, I’ve told you this before, and then that devolves into an argument.

[01:05:55] Ramit: There’s a lot of built-in resentment. And a lot of us have it, a lot of us. When you have something that you’ve disagreed with your partner on that’s important for years, you can see when I ask a very simple question, do you think you can do that? I can see that there’s so much under the surface.

[01:06:13] You’re already thinking, if I ask her this, she’s going to say this. Then I’m going to say that. Then we’re going to fight. I can see that. That’s normal. That’s where a therapist can really help you facilitate with tools. But I also think that you two have to see the stakes here.

[01:06:28] The stakes are a lot bigger than you think. This isn’t about fishing and it’s not about salad. It’s about the two of you. It’s about your daughters. It’s about working as a team. If you go on the way you are, each of you in your own ring, as you described, Evelyn, you’ll calcify that. You will each become more and more individualistic, more and more disconnected about money.

[01:06:52] Luckily, you’ll have money, but what a tragedy to have a lot of money and not even be connected over it. What’s the point of it all? Why do we work so hard if we’re not going to actually feel joy? You are in such a fortunate position to have money, to have a family. What a tragedy to not take advantage of it.

[01:07:12] So the theme that I’m going to give you for this year is teammates, and my suggestion for you would be, go home, don’t talk about money for the rest of the evening. Just let it sit. Because there’s a lot. We really scrape the surface and we’re just getting into how much there is. But just think about this.

[01:07:33] This is the only question you have to ask yourself in the next 24 hours. If we were truly a team, what would it look and feel like? Do you feel confident you could come up with those answers separately and then bring them together? Okay. Evelyn says yes. Mike? He says a confident yes. Hey, everybody. Do you think that they can think about what it takes to be a team together? I think so too. Thank you very much.

[01:08:08] Evelyn: Thank you. Thank you.

[01:08:12] Ramit: Give it up, Evelyn and Mike. Thank you very much. Wow. That takes a lot of courage. Can we give it up for them again, Evelyn and Mike? Damn.

[01:08:30] Honestly, I love that. I love the honesty. This is the reason I said I love hearing real stories from real people. Who do you know that would talk about going to the state fair and were talking about these tiny purchases that seem inconsequential, but they actually expose so much of how we become disconnected over money?

[01:08:55] To the outside, they go, that doesn’t make any sense. That’s crazy. You have the money. They’re approaching it like we’re robots, but we’re not. You could see it. You saw the numbers. They were great. But it’s not about that. That doesn’t change the way we feel.

[01:09:09] And so over and over and over again, I want to show you all the different ways that people think about money and feel about money where they’re not the same. They’re different. They’re disconnected. When you start to see that, you can start to change the way you think about money, talk about money, behave with money, and feel with money.

[01:09:29] Now, I have a special surprise for you guys tonight. I can’t come to Chicago without seeing one of my favorite guests. You might recognize him from a little show on Netflix called How to Get Rich. Let’s take a look.

[01:09:45] Drew: I can’t take care of my life right now. And it’s like, I don’t want to.

[01:09:47] Mikey: Mike is all I have because I rely on him so much and I don’t want to leak.

[01:09:54] Drew: We’re a team, and I don’t feel like I’m pulling my weight right now. I’m tired of feeling lost. I’m tired of feeling I don’t have control. And I think my biggest fear is I go, “What if I’m not fixable?”

[01:10:26] Ramit: Drew And Mikey, welcome. How’re you doing?

[01:10:33] Drew: I really want my pop star diva moment right now like a little espresso, Ramit.

[01:10:39] Ramit: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have that. How’s it going?

[01:10:41] Drew: Good. How are you?

[01:10:42] Ramit: You guys look great. Drew, I’m thinking back to the first time I ever met you. Wow. Let me tell you something. I did not know what was going on. The production team told me like, “Oh, we’re meeting our next guest at a bar.” I walked into this bar and it was packed. Everyone was seated. I walked in, and they just ushered me to my seat.

[01:11:09] In retrospect, everyone on the production crew was looking at me a lot and are smiling and looking at me. I’ve been in a freaking bar. I know what it’s like. But everyone knew something was about to go down. And then the music turned on. And then–

[01:11:27] Drew: You saw cross dressers.

[01:11:29] Ramit: Yeah. I was like, “Yo, I did not expect this.” I loved it. I loved it. You have some moves. Holy [Bleep]. That was amazing. You were in full drag. And do you remember, we met, we talked a little bit, I got to know you? I remember at the end of our time together you made a shirt for me, which was very sweet. Do you remember what that shirt said?

[01:12:00] Drew: Yeah. It was your drag name. You’re my daughter.

[01:12:02] Ramit: Yeah, I’m his drag daughter.

[01:12:04] Drew: God, I’m so sorry.

[01:12:05] Ramit: And what was the name that you gave?

[01:12:07] Drew: Cass Monet. We had to name you after your wife, Cass, and then Monet because of money.

[01:12:14] Ramit: I love it. I really loved our time together, and I want to remind everyone where you started at. So when I first met you, where were you financially speaking?

[01:12:28] Drew: Broke. I was a server, so I was living shift to shift. There was no consistency. And then in general, the income disparity between me and Mikey was huge. And it was just stress nonstop, that feeling of insignificance and just not knowing what to do. He would try and talk to me about the money and then I would just shut down. Like my eyes would glaze over and I’d be like, uh-huh. He’s like, “Did you hear what I said? Four.

[01:12:56] Ramit: Right, right.

[01:12:57] Drew: No.

[01:12:58] Ramit: I remember that. Mikey, you were very supportive. I always remember that. You were very supportive, but it’s almost like no matter what you said, it wasn’t reaching Drew.

[01:13:09] Mikey: Yeah, he didn’t know how to talk about money at all.

[01:13:11] Ramit: Yeah.

[01:13:12] Mikey: And actually, since the show, him and I have had a lot of conversations around it and I think— sorry, mom, dad– but it really comes down to our parents. Our parents, neither one of them ever talked about money. All we knew was things get paid and there was nothing left over. So we just never learned how to talk about money in a healthy way.

[01:13:29] Ramit: How many people in the room grew up where you did not talk about money? Let me hear you. Yeah. A lot. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Drew, you were also keeping a secret from Mikey.

[01:13:43] Drew: Which one?

[01:13:44] Ramit: Oh, [Bleep]. Well, the only one I knew about was the credit card debt.

[01:13:48] Drew: The credit card. Yes.

[01:13:50] Ramit: I think it was 5,000 bucks.

[01:13:51] Drew: 5,000.

[01:13:52] Ramit: And that’s a big deal. Before you get married, having financial secrets, which are among some of the most intimate for people. I’m curious, how has your relationship with credit changed since we talked?

[01:14:07] Drew: She’s a toxic ex.

[01:14:08] Ramit: Mm.

[01:14:09] Drew: The credit cards got paid off and I’m like, “Okay, bye. Done.” They’re in a drawer.

[01:14:14] Ramit: Debt-free?

[01:14:15] Drew: There’s student loan, but credit card debt-free.

[01:14:16] Ramit: Credit card debt-free?

[01:14:17] Drew: Yes.

[01:14:18] Ramit: All right. Let’s give it up. Damn. Honestly, amazing. Honestly, amazing. When I talk to people who have paid off credit card debt, one of the first things they say is, I never want to go back there. Okay. I love that. Mikey, what have you noticed about Drew’s relationship with money since the show?

[01:14:40] Mikey: He still spends it.

[01:14:41] Ramit: Mm-hmm.

[01:14:42] Mikey: No, he’s better at understanding it’s a tool, not something to be afraid of. This year was rough financially for us, but not as bad as it could have been. But because of what we went through, we were able to do it. Drew’s restaurant closed unexpectedly. So of course, I went into my baby Mikey mode of no money. We can’t spend anything.

[01:15:03] Then I was like, “Okay, stop catastrophizing. I make enough for both of us in reality.” So made the decision for him to go back to school, which was rough on him actually to not make money. It was really rough because now he wasn’t bringing anything in. So we get our on merry way on that. And then in July, work told me I’d be laid off in August.

[01:15:22] Ramit: Ah, okay.

[01:15:24] Mikey: But we had put plans in place because I don’t think it was on the show, and it was like, what would happen if you would lose your job? And it made me take a step back, like, what would we do?

[01:15:32] Ramit: Yeah.

[01:15:32] Mikey: So we put things in place where we put everything automatic, which we were almost there, but then we also pulled everything into one account. We did that stuff. And I used Quicken. And I was able to say like, we can spend this much money and we’ll be fine until, what’d I say? September of this year. We have been fine.

[01:15:50] Ramit: Wow.

[01:15:50] Mikey: So we had enough that September of this year would’ve been a problem.

[01:15:53] Ramit: Okay. Wow.

[01:15:54] Mikey: But Drew was able to take that and be like, “Okay, let’s work with what we have. Let’s talk through it. Let’s really think through what we’re spending money on and what we did.”

[01:16:04] Ramit: That’s quite amazing. So both of you were unemployed during parts of last year, and you both talked about it. You had put plans in place for what if something goes wrong and you were able to survive, not just survive, but even more than survive this hardship. Can we give it up? That’s amazing. That’s quite advanced. You know what’s cool?

[01:16:33] Little things like that, you really can tell connection. It’s obvious that the two of you did it together. It’s obvious that it wasn’t just one person and the other feeling really anxious. It’s clear there’s a connection. That’s exactly what money is about in a relationship. So I appreciate that. When we talked, you were working at a restaurant first, then we talked afterwards and you were going to be going into HR. Update me on that. Where are you now?

[01:16:57] Drew: We’ve done another 360, I feel like. Because I realized HR is a little bit of the devil and protects the big bad corporate guy, and I was not about to do that.

[01:17:07] Ramit: Okay.

[01:17:08] Drew: Actually, the same day I lost my job is the same day I started school, and I’m back in school to be a paralegal.

[01:17:14] Ramit: Whoa.

[01:17:14] Drew: I’ll be done in May. So if anyone in here is a lawyer and needs a paralegal in May, DM Ramit, and he’ll message me.

[01:17:23] Ramit: Yeah. All right. I like it.

[01:17:24] Drew: Yeah, so going to school, paralegal, thinking right now, because of everything I’ve experienced as a server, employment law or also IP law, like with AI and social media, I think IP law’s going to be some money honey. Everyone’s always going to need a lawyer, and a lawyer’s always going to need a paralegal, so–

[01:17:42] Ramit: I love that.

[01:17:42] Drew: Jobs occur to you.

[01:17:43] Ramit: Do you use my dream job stuff that I sent you?

[01:17:45] Drew: I did. I did a lot of that. When I first decided to go back, I did the informational interviews, and I started reaching out to people I knew from college or people I knew through social circles that were lawyers or adjacent, and started asking questions, what are you looking for? Who do I talk to? What do I do? And it’s worked out well.

[01:18:06] Ramit: And Mikey, what was it like for you to watch Drew go through this career progression?

[01:18:11] Mikey: It made me happy because it’s going to make more money than a server. No, it was really good because I think he was a little floating, just trying to figure out what he wanted.

[01:18:22] Because the deal was, “When he was like, I want to go back to school for paralegal,” I’m like, “All right, one class. Because if you don’t like it, we’re only a couple of hundred dollars out. We can move on.” So we took one class. He really liked it, and as he’s going through the classes, I see it. Unfortunately, we have a good friend who’s a lawyer and now they talk lawyer crap, and it’s really annoying, really, really annoying.

[01:18:45] Ramit: I like this little dipping our toes into what’s next. But you know what else I like? Drew, I like that you were going for HR. You started to go down that path and then you realize it’s not for me. I have to say, it’s really hard to make a shift when you have put your eggs in one basket and you’ve told people publicly, this is what I’m going for. That’s common. It’s hard. But I like that you said, this isn’t for me. I’m finding something else.

[01:19:15] Drew: Yeah. I just realized too with it, when people ask me what I wanted to do for a job, I was like, “Make more money.” Not serving was the answer. And now I get excited. I know exactly what I want to do, which has never happened in my 36 years of existence. So it feels good to know where I’m going.

[01:19:32] Mikey: And he’s happy. He’s really happy. After doing the show and before the show a little bit, it was always like, what do you want to do? At the end of the day, we just want to be happy. So if you could take what you make and be happy with it, that’s all that matters. And that’s what I was really hoping he found. And I’m happy about that.

[01:19:48] Ramit: I love that. Drew and Mikey, thank you so much. I’m so proud of you. Give it up to Drew and Mikey. Thank you, guys. It’s so great to see you always. Drew and Mikey.

[01:20:07] Thank you, Chicago.

[Narration]

[01:20:27] Ramit: I don’t often get to sit down with couples years after I first meet them. But I love hearing how Drew and Mikey’s relationship between them and with money continues to evolve. It’s now been over a month since I first sat down with them on stage in Chicago, and Drew sent me this message just the other day.

[01:20:47] He said, “I’m now interning for a solo owner practice where I’ve assisted in mediation, and trials and I love it. It’s the first time I can remember doing work that feels correct. I get enjoyment out of it. I’m driven by it. I continue to set up informational interview with old connections as well as new ones I’ve made through this internship. I can’t wait to graduate in May. I currently have a 3.875 GPA.”

[01:21:12] Whoa. Drew, my man. Drew and Mikey have come so far since I met them two years ago on the Netflix show, and I hope to be able to say the same for Evelyn and Mike down the line. I have to commend Evelyn and Mike for coming on stage and sharing so openly.

[01:21:28] It’s one thing to go through a coaching session with me in my coaching program. It’s another thing to come on the podcast. It’s entirely another thing to come in front of a live audience and share material like this– incredibly intimate, often taboo, totally unscripted, and we have no idea what’s going to happen.

[01:21:50] The fact that they were willing to come on stage tells me that they want to make a change, and my wish for them is to build true connection around money so they can create a Rich Life for themselves and for their kids.

[01:22:04] Now let’s check out the updates from Evelyn and Mike.

[01:22:07] Mike: Some of the support from the crowd that I received, I was not expecting that much feedback. Just how affirmed I felt. There’s layers to peel back of previous conversations that I can’t just jump to. And I try to assume that Evelyn’s working through her takeaways and changes and try and be a partner in that together.

[01:22:26] How I’m going to change going forward is we’ve already discussed this about creating a budget, and we’ve created a way to track it better for my hobbies that Evelyn has concern about. And so that’s something I want to implement for 2025, is having that hobby budget that Ramit suggested and working together with it and showing it to Evelyn. And yeah, using that to have positive discussions going forward, not conflicts.

[01:22:50] Ramit: And now, let’s hear from Evelyn.

[01:22:52] Evelyn: Two weeks ago, Mike and I were on stage. It was a really eye-opening experience. And more than that, I’ve told my friends, it felt like a life-shifting experience for me, akin to when I had my children or when I tasted a chocolate molten cake for the first time. It was just life shifting.

[01:23:09] To be honest, when I applied, I expected Ramit to give a stern talking to with Mike and just tell him to stop eating fried foods from the state fair or ask him to dig in deeper into his spending habits. And there was very little of that. Most of it was analyzing my history, my family dynamics with money and where my insecurity and uncertainty comes from in terms of expecting how we run our finances.

[01:23:37] The last thing Ramit said to us was teamwork. And I think that even though it’s something we all have in mind or say with regularity at work or at home, at the end of the day, if I’m approaching conversations or even my mindset with a me against you lens, it is really counterproductive to moving the relationship forward.

[01:23:56] There was a time when I was telling Ramit how much money we’ve saved or how much money we’ve earned because of my aggressive, negotiating tactics. And he rolled his eyes and was like, who cares? Is that worth sacrificing some of the relationship? It was eye-opening for me that he actually said that to me, even though I have seen his negotiating videos before.

[01:24:16] So when I feel myself getting resentful or I feel myself feeling negative about Mike and his purchases, big or small. I just take a different turn and think through why I’m thinking that way hopefully cements us as true partners in this marriage, not just in name or in the bank accounts we share, or the children we share, but in our heart, in our spirit, in our finances. They say that expectations are resentments in training, and I think that this conversation helped me reset my expectations.