Episode #118: “Before kids, I made $20k/month. Now he wants me to be a housewife” (Part 2)

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[00:00:00] Drake: My dear wife doesn’t understand what it’s like to be a man and have the very specific drive that not all men but most men have. Instead, it’s looked at as an excuse and bullshit. Last month, I made more money than I’ve ever made in my life. I brought home $17,000, and the way it was received wasn’t the way that I would have liked it to have been received.

[00:00:39] Kara: I wasn’t prepared for how much this unconscious idea of the role I should play as a woman and the role he should play as a man would affect our relationship. I was not prepared for that.

[00:00:53] Drake: Ramit, let me say something to you. There’s some fear. There’s some fear with being direct with my wife. I want to be heard. I want to be heard. I want to say this one thing that I’ve been trying to say and have her hear me.

[00:01:10] Ramit: Well, we’ve been here for almost three hours. When are you going to say? You guys have beentogetherfor13years 

[00:01:13] Drake: I’ll say it right now. I’ll say it right now. I’ll make it very plain. I need love from you. Respect. I need food, and I just need clean clothes. That’s it.

[00:01:30] Kara: You need me to be a housewife for the next three months.

[Narration]

[00:01:35] Ramit: Welcome to part 2 of my conversation with Kara and Drake. They are 38 and 37 years old with two infant children and a very complex story. Please go back and listen to last week’s episode number 117 to catch up with this couple. You will recall that they initially came to me because they’ve been arguing about money, and it really took place at a grocery store. As I started to ask them more and more questions, well, we started to grapple with Kara’s realization that her identity is changing as a wife, as a mother, as an entrepreneur, and some of Drake’s very surprising reactions. Let’s continue this conversation.

[Interview]

[00:02:19] Kara: I’m going to be very, very scarily honest on this very public platform. I think I’m afraid of what it means to a certain degree if I’m not doing all those things, if I am not all of those things. And by kissing him on the neck, metaphorically, somehow represents a loss to me, a loss of control, a loss of identity. And I black out in the sense of, what now? How should I behave now? Who am I? 

[00:03:06] Ramit: Because all the time you’ve been together, who would you say has been the leader in the relationship?

[00:03:14] Kara: Five out of seven categories, I think it’s been me.

[00:03:18] Ramit: Yeah. How about the money category?

[00:03:20] Kara: It’s been me.

[00:03:21] Ramit: What’s going through your head? Say it out loud for me.

[00:03:35] Kara: I’m trying not to cry. There’s been so much loss of identity since we left LA. I’m also an actor, and I previously had an acting career. Um, and that was a huge part of my identity. I give you that example to say there’s so many things that have died in my life, and I never regained that control. I never regained that identity and any of those things that I previously was. And here I am, a wife and now a mother of two, and still an entrepreneur and a leader with people that I love and care for, and they do well. There’s so many good things. That’s what I’m trying to say.

[00:04:25] There’s so many good things that have manifested in these last two years, but I don’t know how to fit into it. I don’t feel like I did before, where I felt confident, and I was on beat, and I knew what to do, and I knew where to go, and how to be. Now, it’s just like I’m doing a mediocre job at everything. So maybe I’m fighting to regain some control or my old identity, and then we’re here.

[00:05:02] Ramit: How old is your youngest?

[00:05:05] Kara: Four weeks in a day.

[00:05:10] Ramit: I’m not surprised. It’s difficult. I don’t think anybody would expect it to be easy. You have two very young children. That alone, incredibly difficult. You have a partner with whom you have not been able to create a healthy dynamic about money, and suddenly, he’s earning 17k in a month. And then your business. There’s all these different things. All that. To me, it’s no surprise that you feel out of sorts, a little mediocre at certain things, especially difficult when you used to be good at everything. Is there a path out of feeling mediocre at everything? 

[00:05:48] Kara: Yes, there’s a path out.

[00:05:49] Ramit: Drake, what do you think about that? Everything you just heard?

[00:05:54] Drake: I think that it’s spot on.

[00:05:57] Ramit: Did you know that she felt this way?

[00:05:59] Drake: I’ve been wanting to say that for the longest and didn’t want to upset her, so I kept my mouth closed.

[00:06:10] Ramit: Tell her now, now that the seal has been broken. She’s brought it up herself. Go ahead. Tell her whatever you want to tell her.

[00:06:16] Drake: Okay. It’s extremely hard to feel appreciated when I’m not being appreciated. And when I came into this relationship, you were making a lot of money, and I wasn’t. Relatively, I wasn’t. And I knew that I had my work cut out for me. I knew that I had to–

[00:06:49] Ramit: Can I pause you right here? 

[00:06:50] Drake: Yes.

[00:06:51] Ramit: I sense you gearing up for a long statement, but I want to make sure you’re reacting to what she just said. It was extremely interesting and profound. Are we on the same page?

[00:07:03] Drake: Yes.

[00:07:04] Ramit: Okay, go ahead.

[00:07:06] Drake: Yeah, we are. It’s very emasculating when you–

[00:07:14] Ramit: Wait, wait, wait, where’s this coming from? Hold on. What did you hear her say just now?

[00:07:19] Drake: I heard her say that she has a loss of identity, and it’s very hard to come to grips with it, and she feels like she’s lost control over everything.

[00:07:39] Ramit: Okay, I agree. She said all those things. Totally agree. Okay, so you heard her correctly. Okay, please carry on.

[00:07:47] Drake: I did. Uh, where this is coming from is feeling like I was being controlled and like, uh, in the midst of you holding on to whatever you can control, I’m the closest thing that you can grab. And, uh, I tell you– what’s that face Ramit? 

[00:08:15] Ramit: I don’t know. Is this just one grievance session after another? I’m so confused. She just opened up in a really deep way, and you’re talking about being emasculated? This seems absolutely crazy to me.

[00:08:29] Drake: Really?

[00:08:29] Ramit: Yes. God, I can’t even believe what I’m hearing. If anything, what I would expect is a partner to say, thank you for being so honest. I didn’t realize how difficult it is. Gosh, you’ve taken on so much. And to have your identity, which used to be A plus in everything, feel like you’re doing a C minus, God, that must be so difficult. I love you. I’d love to support you. How are you guys going to communicate about money if you can’t even talk about really deep stuff like this, like feeling a loss of identity?

[00:09:02] Drake: Well, I guess this is the first time that I’ve felt seen and understood in a while, and I wanted to give some perspective from my point of view on what she said. My apologies for– 

[00:09:20] Ramit: No, you don’t have to apologize to me. 

[00:09:21] Drake: No, I’m apologizing to her. For, uh, coming at that angle and not acknowledging the bravery that you showed by opening up, because I truly do appreciate you. I appreciate everything about you. I appreciate the fact that you are a badass in your job. I appreciate the fact that you are an amazing mother.

[00:09:47] I am blessed that you are their mother, and I’m blessed that you’re my wife. And I love that you support me. And I love that you put up your money to invest in me because you saw something in me. I love that. I love it. And I’m here. I’m showing up. I’m doing exactly what you thought I was going to do. I’m doing it. And all I’m saying is let me do it. Let me do it.

[00:10:22] Kara: I appreciate that. That was a tense moment for me, but thank you, because you’re right, Ramit. I just needed a little bit of softness and some validation in that, and I know that you feel those things, Drake. Literally could feel the muscles in my back relax as you’re saying these things, and I’m like, oh yes, that is true. He does feel that. I know he believes that. It felt like breath. So thank you for saying that.

[00:10:46] Drake: You’re welcome, darling.

[00:10:48] Ramit: I loved seeing that. I loved it. Drake, I know what you said was heartfelt. I could feel that. I’d love for you to be able to feel that more often. What do you think?

[00:10:59] Drake: A 100%. I agree. I would.

[00:11:03] Kara: Yeah.

[00:11:04] Ramit: Seal that moment up that we just had for a second. And remember, that is transferable. That’s transferable to your kids in terms of raising them. It’s transferable to talking about family. It’s transferable to money.

[00:11:16] Hmm.

[00:11:17] It’s a skill. You sealed it up in a fist. Now, you deploy it wherever you want. Um, Kara, how’d you grow up with money? What do you remember about money when you were a kid?

[00:11:30] Kara: Um, work hard. Don’t ask nobody for nothing. Never accept a handout. Rich people are greedy.

[00:11:43] Ramit: Ooh. Are they greedy?

[00:11:46] Kara: Uh, no, I don’t think that’s the case at all.

[00:11:48] Ramit: Okay. How’d you come to that now as an adult, even though you were raised as a kid to believe that they’re greedy?

[00:11:57] Kara: I think I came to it because I saw the life that my mom and my dad, but mostly my mom, was living, and said, oh, hell no. I’m not going to live like that.

[00:12:11] Ramit: What was it like?

[00:12:13] Kara: Just always working, working, working, and you got to– my mom would wake up, as long as I can remember– I think she still does it. Wake up at 4:30 in the morning, drive an hour to her job, work a full job, come home an hour, cook dinner for us, and be pissed.

[00:12:36] Ramit: Uh, just a couple of questions, Kara. Uh, how many times you wake up in the middle of the night?

[00:12:40] Kara: Oh, my God. Every two hours.

[00:12:44] Ramit: Thank you. And then do you cook some food for the family?

[00:12:49] Kara: I did. I did. I reheated the food that my mom made and put in the freezer.

[00:12:55] Ramit: Okay. And now that your mom’s gone, who’s going to make food over the next week or two?

[00:13:01] Kara: I’ll be reheating the food that she left for us.

[00:13:03] Ramit: And when that’s done?

[00:13:05] Kara: Then it’ll be on me to figure out food.

[00:13:09] Ramit: Oh, got it. And then you work in your business still? 

[00:13:12] Kara: Yes. 

[00:13:14] Ramit: And then at the end of the day, when it comes to money, how do you feel about money right now?

[00:13:21] Kara: I feel like I don’t have enough money right now.

[00:13:24] Ramit: Uh-huh. Are there any similarities? Am I the only one in this room seeing it?

[00:13:30] Kara: No. Can I speak on this?

[00:13:33] Ramit: Please.

[00:13:33] Kara: It’s really interesting because go back two years ago, pre-marriage, pre-babies, I had really shifted my identity around money from that specifically, um, and I had created something that my mom, she just couldn’t believe it. She couldn’t believe that I was earning six figures from something I had created, um, and I had left a job that was very much me living my mom’s ideas. And so it was a profound shift. And then something so primal, like having children, happens to you, and all of a sudden, poof, I’m my mom again.

[00:14:18] Ramit: Yeah. And how does that make you feel?

[00:14:28] Kara: I feel very disappointed with myself. 

[Narration]

[00:14:32] Ramit: Poof, I’m my mom again. How many young parents do you think suddenly blink their eyes and realize they are now emulating their parents? I wonder how many of us look around and realize we’re rehashing our family relationship dynamics. And I wonder how many of us realize that we’re recreating the way our family handled money.

[00:14:54] When I speak to couples on this podcast, it’s often strikingly obvious to me and to you how similar the patterns are, but it’s almost never obvious to the person I’m talking to. Have you noticed that? It’s the same reason you can have a friend asking for relationship advice, and it’s blatantly obvious to you what they should do, but when it’s our relationship and our situation, suddenly, it’s infinitely more complex.

[00:15:21] This is why we all need a little help sometimes. It can be with money, or fitness, or our relationship, and that help can come in the form of a book, a podcast, a trainer, a coach, a therapist. But the things that are totally obvious to someone else, they’re literally right in front of our faces, are the same things we are blind to when it’s our own situation. 

[00:15:41] Kara, who admits she gets lost in the details is now realizing that she’s recreated the same dynamics that her mom did. Drake describes himself as thinking big picture, and he’s oblivious to these details. And this dynamic is part of the reason why Kara was crying at the grocery store over Drake using a different credit card. In her mind, she’s trying to keep it all together. In his mind, who cares? I made $17,000 last month. Listen closely for this dynamic as we go on.

[Interview]

[00:16:16] Ramit: What would it look like if you two were an effective team with money? 

[00:16:23] Drake: Well, the first thing that I would do is tackle the debt. Get that completely out. Get our credit scores back to where they were, and buy assets, and leverage debt, honestly, and spend money off of what the assets are bringing in, and just keep making strategic investments. Set us up for the future, for things that are literally making us money without having to wake up at 4:30 in the morning and work all day just to make a living.

[00:17:01] Ramit: I like your vision. It’s a powerful 10-year, 20-year vision. I love it. I actually think you could get there if you wanted to, but why don’t we narrow the scope a little bit and think about the next six months because I think that makes it a little bit more real?

[00:17:17] Drake: I would like to have a monthly meeting on, this is what we’re going to do, and this is the goal. This is what we’re going to tackle. Uh, we would quantify it. We would have goals, uh, milestones set in place just to make sure that we are on the right trajectory. Paying down the credit cards. That would be really good. Uh, a percentage, I guess, of the credit cards.

[00:17:46] Ramit: Okay. What else?

[00:17:48] Drake: Uh, from the milestones, we would celebrate our wins, and we would not trip over me wanting to buy some Jeni’s ice cream. It’s expensive, but I love it. 

[00:18:03] Ramit: I have a question though. Yeah, I don’t mind if you want to buy some ice cream. Get some ice cream. What credit card would you be using for that Jeni’s ice cream for the two of you?

[00:18:15] Drake: Oh, man. I wouldn’t use a credit card to buy that. I’ve been not spending on the credit card and paying it down. Uh, oh, man, you’re not going to like this. I spend with Wells Fargo. That’s my bank. 

[00:18:32] Ramit: Listen, Wells Fargo is a shit bag bank. And if you want to do your business there, great. You know they prey on minorities, right? There’s three minorities in this call right now. They’re coming for us. Yeah. All right. Anyway.

[00:18:47] Drake: I listened to your book.

[00:18:49] Kara: Thank God.

[00:18:50] Ramit: Motherfuck Wells Fargo anyway. Everyone that comes on this show, like, ooh, can I say bad words? Can I name names? I’m like, motherfuck Wells Fargo.

[00:18:58] Kara: Yes. 

[Narration]

[00:18:59] Ramit: Let me take a second to make sure the millions of people listening to this understand how bad Wells Fargo really is. I started this entire business because it’s just a little too confusing how to manage money, and a lot of us don’t know what we’re doing, but we know we’re doing something wrong. And the minute we try to learn, there’s some company out there trying to get us, and that drives me nuts.

[00:19:25] I don’t think you should have to be a financial expert to make the right decisions in life. So when I hear a company like Wells Fargo coming after everyday people, it drives me insane. Let me read from some Wikipedia history so you can actually know what kind of company Wells Fargo is. “The Illinois Attorney General filed suit against Wells Fargo for steering black and Hispanic customers into high-cost subprime loans.

[00:19:51] “Loan officers referred to black mortgage seekers as “mud people,” and their subprime loans as “ghetto loans.” Wells Fargo agreed to pay 175 million in fines.” Years later, they discriminated against nearly 35,000 black job applicants. They paid $7.8 million in back wages. Wells Fargo has been fined billions of dollars for opening up fake accounts for customers, including illegally repossessing vehicles. 

[00:20:22] Can you imagine if you make a low income and your awful bank, Wells Fargo, illegally repossesses your only way of getting to work? Do you see how that single action could affect your entire family, in some cases, for a generation? Fuck Wells Fargo. And if you use them, switch now. Be sure to mention my name when they ask why you’re closing your account. I want them to know it’s me.

[Interview]

[00:20:47] Ramit: Anyway. All right. Forget the credit card. Here’s my question. How are you paying for this Jeni’s ice cream for the two of you? 

[00:20:54] Drake: From our fun fund.

[00:20:56] Ramit: Okay. Your joint account where you have planned for ice cream, and dinners out, and things like that. Okay. I want to make that point because an effective team, you heard one thing that really irritates your partner, that grocery store example.

[00:21:12] Drake: Yeah.

[00:21:14] Ramit: It’s like, that’s easy. Because if something that simple you can just fix, fix it. Find a way. We can come up with strategies if you want some help. But we can’t be stuck talking about what credit card are we using when you’re talking about building assets and leveraging. Fourteen bucks? I’m not going to let that get in the way of leveraging assets. All right, fine. That’s like a pretty powerful vision. I actually love what you said. Six months from now, you think you could be doing that?

[00:21:44] Drake: In some respects, yes.

[00:21:47] Ramit: Okay. I like that. In what ways could you not?

[00:21:50] Drake: If we fumble a bag, if we just get frivolous with our spending in the worst way.

[00:21:56] Ramit: You’re going to mess up. That’s okay. I try to write a song today, is it going to be perfect? No, it’s going to suck. It’s going to be all messed up. So what? I get better, and we build it. Nothing catastrophic is going to happen if you overspend by five bucks.

[00:22:12] Drake: Yeah.

[00:22:13] Ramit: Isn’t that actually quite telling? It’s like an effective team doesn’t always win in a perfect game. They mess up. Somebody trips. Mistakes happen. And what does an effective team do?

[00:22:27] Drake: They learn from the mistakes. They watch the game tape, and they get in a huddle and big each other up.

[00:22:33] Ramit: Bingo. All right. I want to ask the same question over here. Kara.

[00:22:37] Kara: What would it look like if we were effective as a team with money? It would look like having conversations about the finances with excitement, um, curiosity even. To be effective, it would be, I hear loud and clear, lots of celebration over all the wins, his wins, my wins, our wins. And I think having a budget or a way to track money that we both feel good about.

[00:23:23] Ramit: Yeah. Well, right now, neither of you feel good about it. You realize that?

[00:23:30] Drake: Hmm.

[00:23:31] Ramit: All right. So first off, who filled out this conscious spending plan?

[00:23:39] Drake: We both did.

[00:23:40] Ramit: Oh, what was that like?

[00:23:42] Drake: It was terrible. We got into a huge argument.

[00:23:45] Ramit: Huh? Why? How could you argue over a beautiful thing like this?

[00:23:49] Drake: I was trying to give a more accurate depiction because I need your help and your guidance. And I wanted to put something real in with the, uh, subscriptions, and I pulled out my phone to look at what the subscriptions were, and it caused an argument.

[00:24:17] Ramit: Kara, what was your perspective on that fight?

[00:24:21] Kara: Um, I was frustrated at the moment that we were filling it out together. And, um, as I’m reading them, I’m learning, oh, it’s the back of the napkin now. I’m learning your details on how to fill it out. Uh, and I learned that he wasn’t reading the instructions because he was trying to calculate very specific numbers. 

[00:24:47] And I was frustrated, Ramit, because I had the specific numbers because I’ve been a budgeting warrior for the last three months. So I easily had already punched those, uh, current spending numbers in. I’d already done that because I had it, because I’m the one who budgets. I was trying to facilitate the conversation so that it wasn’t just me filling out the whole thing by myself, and he was still back on a different part. And so I was extremely frustrated that we weren’t on the same page, literally, reading it. 

[00:25:19] Ramit: Now that you said that out loud, what do you notice?

[00:25:26] Kara: It’s a lot of me trying to drive and do things a certain way that ends up creating friction.

[00:25:39] Ramit: Keep going.

[00:25:41] Kara: Do I have to? I’m anxious to get to the result, and I get very impatient with– I’ll just say I get very impatient.

[00:25:55] Ramit: And what are the consequences of that?

[00:26:00] Kara: A fight.

[00:26:02] Ramit: Yeah. In fact, I would go as far as to say, sometimes the magic is in the process itself.

[00:26:09] Kara: Yeah.

[00:26:11] Ramit: What’s going through your mind right now?

[00:26:13] Kara: I don’t like to, um, get things wrong. I don’t like to get things wrong, and I don’t like to, um, I want to get things right. I’m always trying to get it right, and I didn’t get this right, and I understand–

[00:26:30] Ramit: Why?

[00:26:31] Kara: I didn’t get this right because instead of being patient with what he was doing and just sitting there for however amount of time that it would have taken, I tried to get him back on track, knowing that it’s not my conscious spending plan. It’s not my process. It’s supposed to be ours, and I got it wrong, and that doesn’t feel good.

[00:26:54] Ramit: Yeah. And can I just say, maybe the whole principle of getting it right and wrong is not even the right principle?

[00:27:01] Kara: Yeah.

[00:27:01] Ramit: How old’s your oldest? You said about 16 months?

[00:27:05] Drake: Yes.

[00:27:06] 

[00:27:06] Ramit: Your daughter, when you go play, what is she playing with right now?

[00:27:16] Kara: Um, she likes to play piano, and she has a little guitar.

[00:27:20] Ramit: Love that. She plays piano? She has a little keyboard?

[00:27:24] Kara: Yeah.

[00:27:25] Drake: She does.

[00:27:26] Ramit: And what do you tell her when she gets it wrong? 

[00:27:29] Kara: Great job, baby. It’s beautiful. I love it.

[00:27:31] Ramit: So you’re saying maybe right and wrong isn’t even the correct lens to view the way that she’s engaging in play. 

[00:27:41] Kara: Yes. 

[00:27:42] Ramit: With the CSP, whether you are $5 or $50 off is irrelevant to me. And more important would be? Finish the sentence for me Kara.

[00:27:58] Kara: Can we do it together?

[00:28:00] Ramit: Yeah. And the way that the two of you play. You have some fun. You tease each other. You say, you think we spent 4,000? Do you mean $4? No. You’re crazy. This is driving me insane. Okay, you’re right, it’s probably $2.50. Have some fun. Now, you laughed when I said, tease each other. What do you think? 

[00:28:28] Kara: I think I laughed because it’s the total opposite of the energy that we currently have.

[00:28:33] Correct. And that energy is? Terrible. It’s tense. It’s terrible. It’s not fun. 

[00:28:39] Drake: It’s, uh, fucking bullshit. That’s what the energy is. 

[Narration]

[00:28:44] Ramit: Doesn’t this all sound familiar? In fact, in Episode 115, I spoke to Ebony and Kevin, a couple who mirror Kara and Drake in many ways. They’re just a little bit older. Ebony and Kevin have two college age kids. Ebony was the budgeting warrior, as Kara put it. Both women like to be right. Hate to be wrong.

[00:29:02] Kevin was confident they’d be okay, just like Drake has said throughout this conversation. And both men shut down when it came to talking about money. Notice the cultural similarities. Notice the similarities in dynamics around money. Ebony and Kevin, who are a beautiful and loving couple, provided a crystal ball into what might happen if Kara and Drake continued their dynamic for another 25 years.

[00:29:27] This is the gift of being able to get wisdom from people who have gone through similar situations as we are in. The couples on this podcast, whether they are low earners, high earners, entrepreneurs, 9-5, whatever, they provide a crystal ball where you can see where you may very likely end up if you don’t make a change. 

[00:29:50] And sometimes, we listen and we go, wow, I love that couple. I love how they complement each other and boost each other up. Fantastic. That can be a crystal ball. Or it can be, gosh, I don’t want to be 50 years old and in a $100,000 of debt. That can be a crystal ball. What I want to encourage you to do as you listen to episodes from this podcast is to think, is it possible for us to end up in that situation? Is that a situation we would want to be in? What are we doing today so we can either avoid that or make that a reality for us? Think ahead. With money, that’s one of the most powerful things you can do.

[Interview]

[00:30:31] Ramit: Can you see a possible universe where the two of you could do the CSP and actually have fun doing it?

[00:30:38] Drake: Yes.

[00:30:39] Kara: Yeah.

[00:30:41] Ramit: What would it look like?

[00:30:43] Kara: It has to begin with a mutual goal in mind. We are going to do this and have fun, rather than, we have to do this–

[00:30:54] Drake: Did you guys do that on your first date? You sat down. You’re like, we’re going to have a mutual goal in mind. That doesn’t sound fun. Yeah. We’d be sitting on a patio somewhere, drinking a cocktail and eating pancakes. I know the two don’t go together, but it sounds amazing.

[00:31:08] Ramit: Who made the cocktail?

[00:31:09] Drake: Oh, man. There’s this restaurant around the corner that makes pancakes, and then, uh, we could get some to-go cocktails.

[00:31:18] Kara: Okay. Pancakes, cocktails, laptop, conscious spending plan. Um, there’s sunshine, so it’s a nice day. I have on makeup, and maybe I feel good about myself. I dressed. Maybe I got some heels on. I feel cute. Maybe you look cute.

[00:31:39] Ramit: Okay. I love this. All right. You’re both feeling good. You got good food, good drinks. You’re looking good. All right. Toss the ball. 

[00:31:45] Drake: All right. So I would go through and look at where we actually dropped the ball first and laugh about it. And say, oh, shit, I didn’t realize that I spent that much on cereal or whatever. And say, okay, well, now that I see that, I know what can be corrected. So let’s move forward. What did we get right now and in on that high note?

[00:32:13] Ramit: Nice, great. Already juices are flowing. We’re talking about having some fun, making fun of ourself. I love that you did. That’s a very, very powerful tool. And honestly, just calling out the elephant in the room. It’s like, yeah, I messed up on this one, but the fact that I’m owning it proactively, what are you going to say about that? It’s like, yeah, I messed up, and I have a plan to fix it. Oh, it’s the most attractive thing in the world.

[00:32:38] Kara: So attractive. I love it. 

[00:32:40] Ramit: So that’s how a CSP process can be much healthier. Has nothing to do with right or wrong, has no importance on if you’re getting the decimal place perfectly correctly. It’s really about how are the two of you going to handle a simple task together like this? All right. Uh, let’s start with Kara. Go ahead and read off assets and then the number next to it. Let’s go through this net worth section.

[00:33:04] Kara: Okay. Assets, $0. Investments, 4,500. Savings, 0. Debt, 339,000.

[00:33:15] Ramit: Okay. Total net worth?

[00:33:17] Kara: Negative $334,500.

[00:33:21] Ramit: All right. What do you think about that?

[00:33:25] Kara: Um, I think it’s really, um, not good.

[00:33:32] Ramit: Okay. Uh, Drake, what do you think about that? 

[00:33:34] Drake: Needs work.

[00:33:35] Ramit: Okay. What’s the 339,000 of debt consist of?

[00:33:42] Kara: Mostly student loans.

[00:33:44] Ramit: How much? 

[00:33:46] Kara: I believe it’s around 300. Maybe a little less than 300.

[00:33:50] Ramit: All right. Uh, income. Uh, what do you see here, Drake, your income per month?

[00:33:57] Drake: I see around 5,500.

[00:34:00] Ramit: Okay. And Kara, your income?

[00:34:03] Drake: 7k.

[00:34:04] Ramit: All right. For a total of 12.5k. Very nice. All right. So you’re making 145,000. A little bit more. Great. Uh, but last month, you had a really good month, Drake. That’s because you run a business, so it’s spiky. Great. So 5,500 is your average income you’re going to make per month.

[00:34:26] Drake: Yes.

[00:34:27] Ramit: Awesome. Love it. And, uh, Kara, 7,000 a month. Does that account for your ups and downs?

[00:34:35] Kara: Um, for this point in time, to date, yes.

[00:34:40] Ramit: Great. Cool. All right. Let’s take a look at your fixed costs here. What’s this number you see next to the fixed costs? 

[00:34:48] Kara: 84%. 

[00:34:49] Ramit: What’s that number supposed to be?

[00:34:52] Kara: Uh, 50 to 60%?

[00:34:54] Ramit: Yeah. Drake, what do you make of that?

[00:34:57] Drake: I think that we need some work.

[00:34:59] 

[00:35:00] Ramit: Uh, can I point something out to you guys? You made a lot of money in the past with not all these, uh, childcare expenses and stuff like that. Is that fair? You were making 250,000 a year. Your current investments are $4,500. What does that tell you?

[00:35:25] Drake: Putting our money in the wrong places, and we’re not spending wisely.

[00:35:29] Kara: Yeah. I don’t know. I would agree with that, which is I blew a bunch of money.

[00:35:38] Ramit: Also tells me that if you make $360,000 like you put in the CSP, it’s not going to make any difference. Making more money is not going to solve your problem. There’s something deeper going on. Life happens. I get that. But over the course of the last few years, what did you say you’ve made? Probably $700,000 plus?

[00:36:06] Kara: Collectively, yeah.

[00:36:08] Ramit: Again, I want to emphasize $4,500 in investments.

[00:36:14] Kara: Which came from my old job having a 401K.

[00:36:17] Ramit: So you essentially invested zero.

[00:36:20] Drake: Mm-hmm. 

[00:36:21] Kara: Yeah.

[00:36:22] Ramit: Do you see that there’s a bigger problem than just needing to make more money?

[00:36:27] Drake: Yes.

[00:36:28] Kara: Yes.

[00:36:29] Ramit: Okay. Every couple who comes on here with a spending problem says exactly the same thing. We just need to make more money. Everyone. And it’s never the solution. I hope you do make more money. I feel confident you’re both going to do it, but it’s not going to change anything unless you actually identify the root of what’s going on here.

[00:36:55] Kara: Okay. I’m excited.

[00:36:56] Ramit: Okay. Let’s keep working through it. So your fixed costs are 84%. You’re investing zero. You’re saving zero. By the way, you have zero in savings. That seems really dangerous for parents of two extremely young kids.

[00:37:12] Drake: Yeah.

[Narration]

[00:37:12] Ramit: Here’s how to think about investments. In the IWT system, investments come first. Everything else flows around them. For example, let’s say I decide to contribute 10% of my pay to investments. Take home, after tax, pre-tax, doesn’t matter for this example. I put that on the CSP, and then the rest of my expenses have to fit around that.

[00:37:35] Now, that may mean that I have to live in a smaller place than I want to for now, or that I have to cut back on eating out every two days. But I do this because I know that every dollar I invest today is going to be worth 10 times that much down the road. I know that, and I wrote that in Chapter 5, 6, and 8 of my book so that you can know that as well.

[00:37:59] I also know that when money is automatically taken out, I’m not going to miss it. You and I get used to money being taken out, and we stop worrying about it because it’s just out of sight, out of mind. Now, if you’re hearing this, and you go, well, there’s no way I can invest 10% of my pay, then make it 5%. The point is that you pay yourself first. You put yourself first.

[00:38:22] Investing is not an afterthought. It doesn’t happen someday when you finally have enough money because, as you can see with Kara and Drake, they’ve made hundreds of thousands of dollars, and they never got around to investing. Investing is something you prioritize now, and you watch it grow. If you want some help, you can join us in Money Coaching at iwt.com/moneycoaching where there’s a community of hundreds of other people, and I do live Q&A every month. That’s at iwt.com/moneycoaching.

[Interview]

[00:38:55] Kara: Yeah, it’s more than that because we’re spending more than we’re making right now.

[00:38:59] Ramit: So every month, you’re losing money. 

[00:39:01] Kara: Yes. 

[00:39:02] Ramit: How long can you go?

[00:39:05] Kara: We’re at the end. We were at the end last month when he had the 17k month. So we’re week by week right now.

[00:39:17] Ramit: Drake, did you know that?

[00:39:19] Drake: Yeah.

[00:39:21] Ramit: So what’s going on here?

[00:39:24] Drake: I’m not sure, actually. I don’t know what happened with the money. I don’t know how to answer that. What I would like to do is focus on earning more money and making that 17k more consistent. And I truly believe that in order for us to get back on the right page, there has to be a sacrifice that’s made. And the only sacrifice that I can think of is my time.

[00:40:22] Ramit: Hold on. Who has a higher earning potential out of the two of you?

[00:40:29] Drake: Historically, she does. Currently, I would say I do.

[00:40:32] Ramit: Okay. Kara, do you agree?

[00:40:41] Kara: If we’re discussing the next six months specifically, um, no, I don’t agree with that.

[00:40:58] Ramit: You have a higher earning potential in the next six months?

[00:41:01] Kara: I think so.

[00:41:02] Ramit: Okay. Um, so we have an opportunity here. We have a choice. We’re going to talk about this, and the two of you can choose how you’re going to show up in this conversation. The first can be a series of, I think this, I feel that, I don’t appreciate this and that. Or the second can be, we have a fire in our house. We’re losing money every single week, and as a team, we need to come up with a solution right now. Which do you want to show up as?

[00:41:39] Drake: Number two.

[00:41:39] Kara: Number two. 

[00:41:39] Ramit: Okay, go ahead, Drake.

[00:41:40] Drake: I’ll speak first. I need to really hone in, and make it happen, and allow my wife to enjoy being a mother and not have that financial stress because with stress, it affects the breast milk. And if the breast milk is affected, then our son is being affected. And if I can avoid that, I will do damn near anything. 

[00:42:12] Kara: Sweetheart, that’s what you’re doing now. That’s your plan now. That’s what we’ve been doing, right? And not even by choice. I need a little bit of time before I can get back to hitting on all cylinders. You have been hitting on all cylinders with inconsistent results. So if we keep just doing that, in a world of fluff, and it’s all possible, it happened once, it could happen again, six months from now, we’re going to be in the same position, but worse.

[00:42:49] For me personally, what I would love is some very clear, like, these are the things I’m going to do to– if you think it’s more money, cool. How are you going to make more money? And in a way that doesn’t– if you’re working 12 hours a day, sweetheart, there’s a thing, diminishing returns. How are you going to be that productive, and you’re spending no time with me, you’re spending no time with our son, no time with our daughter? You’re trying to solve one problem and create another one. There has to be a better way. 

[00:43:21] Drake: I understand that, and if I can point out that the month that I made the 17k, that was a month when I was like, I need to do what I know I need to do, and I would love your support. And you supported me through that. Now, once I made that 17k, the reaction that I got from you was completely opposite of what I thought I would get, and– 

[00:43:54] Ramit: You notice how easily you both have shifted back into option one instead of option two?

[00:43:58] Kara: I saw it. Yes. I just saw it.

[00:44:00] Ramit: You two love it. You love it. You realize that?

[00:44:02] Kara: a pattern. It’s a pattern.

[00:44:04] Drake: It’s a pattern.

[00:44:06] Ramit: You love it. 

[00:44:07] Drake: I want to be heard. I want to be heard. I want to say this one thing that I’ve been trying to say and have her hear me.

[00:44:17] Ramit: Well, we’ve been here for almost three hours. When are you going to say? You guys have beentogetherfor13years 

[00:44:21] Drake: I’ll say it right now. I’ll say it right now. I need you to let me do what I know I need to do, and I need your support the same way we did it last month, the same exact way when I worked and worked and you were there supporting me, not out of any chauvinistic place, but when I was hungry, you brought me food. And that made me feel loved, and that made me feel supported, and that made me want to go even harder. And because of that, I went even harder and did something that I never could have even imagined. 

[00:44:59] Kara: So what you’re saying is, what you want me to do is support your basic needs or whatever, bring you food, help you focus for the next three months, six months? Because if we’re switching into team mode, and I’m not trying to make my point and then battle you, if you’re telling me, hey, I can make 17k a month if you support me in these ways for this period of time, that feels much more doable to me. I feel like I can do that. On a daily or weekly basis, let’s just assume you can do 17k, what is it you need me to do?

[00:45:48] Drake: I need one morning where I sleep in, and I know that’s a big ask. I understand it. But I want to fire on all cylinders and not burn out because, right now, I need to and I want to. So that is one big thing. I need a morning where I can just get caught up on rest. I need food. I do. You get mad when I don’t eat. I need that.

[00:46:23] Kara: You need me to be a housewife for the next three months.

[00:46:28] Drake: I mean, if that’s how you see it. I feel like that is a derogatory term to you.

[00:46:34] Kara: I don’t mean it that way. I’m really trying to not debate you. I’m trying to listen to what you’re telling me you need.

[00:46:47] Drake: Yes. I’ll make it very plain. I need love from you. Respect. I need, uh, food, and I just need clean clothes. That’s it.

[00:47:05] Kara: Okay. I hear you, and all of those things are reasonable, but I need specifics. And I think that’s something that maybe we need to– because I need to know what that means. What do you mean respect?

[00:47:17] Drake: Okay. If the question is what is respect, respect to me means you speak to me and treat me in a manner that you would treat my dad, or anyone else, or the way you converse with Ramit, instead of coming at me with so much masculine energy. And no disrespect to you, darling. You know I love you. You know I love you. I’m an athlete, and when I see that masculine energy, it fires me up, and it repels me.

[00:47:56] Ramit: Less is more. Can I just point something out? I love this conversation. It’s actually the most honest I’ve heard the two of you be with each other. You’re being specific. It’s awesome. There’s one thing. The more either of you talk, the more you get in trouble. I don’t know if you both have realized it. You want to be a leader? Lead.

[00:48:13] Drake: Yeah. 

[00:48:14] Ramit: You want to be teammate? Collaborate. 

[00:48:16] Drake: Okay. So I need food. I need lunch. That’s it. Just lunch while I’m working. I need one morning to sleep in. I need affection from you. I need you to be soft with me. I want to be your husband. I want to be your rock. I don’t want you to be my rock. I need that. I need to feel like you trust me. Because when you don’t, it sets something off in my mind where it’s like, well, fuck, why should I even try? 

[00:49:02] Kara: I think that, um, yes, it’s doable. So if we can just say, hey, for the next two weeks, I’ll do all of those things, and let’s see how it goes, and then we can have another conversation about it, I think that will work well for me.

[00:49:37] Ramit: Like that a lot. Love that you’re advocating for yourself. Actually, this is great. I’m not ready to rubber stamp all this and say, thumbs up, guys, so great, because I have questions. 

[00:49:50] Drake: Yes. 

[00:49:51] Ramit: Kara’s really gone out on a limb and said, okay, I could try that. I could try it. Give me some grace. It’s going to be tough, but I could try that. But if I was Kara, you know what I’d be thinking in the back of my head? How do I know this is going to work? What do I get? Kara, is that something you’re thinking about right now?

[00:50:15] Kara: Yeah. Drake, I’m worried that I pass the ball to you, the financial responsibilities and drop my ball. Give you what you’re asking for, and it doesn’t work, and I lose my ability or my edge to pick the ball up and run.

[00:50:46] Drake: I understand that, and it makes sense. And if I could point out each time that you have done this, I’ve excelled. If we look at December, I closed how many clients in the month where nobody is spending money because they want to buy presents for their kids? And then last month when you did it, I excelled. 

[00:51:14] You are my gas, babe. You are my gas. I want to show up for you. I don’t give a fuck about anybody else. I don’t care if C.T. Fletcher calls me and says you’re the man. When you say I’m the man, that is what fires me up. Nothing anybody else says. Only you. You are my gas. That is what I need.

[00:51:44] Kara: Okay, I’m willing to try.

[00:51:46] Ramit: Can I just be really direct? You guys need to make, um, around 15,000 a month. And so that means that– how much do you need to make, Drake, next month?

[00:52:09] Drake: What are you bringing in, babe, from your clients? You’re saying, uh, what do I need to make sure that we hit 15 collectively?

[00:52:18] Ramit: Yeah. Drake, if you don’t know that number, that is the problem. All the stuff you just said is thrown out the window if you don’t know that’s the ball game.

[00:52:27] Drake: Yeah.

[00:52:29] Ramit: The reason I’m concerned, and it seems like I’m more concerned than you are is– I’m like, I’m afraid of you guys giving up your house. You have zero in savings. You have two young kids. How are you going to pay rent?

[Narration]

[00:52:45] Ramit: It’s like they’re both talking to the ghosts of each other rather than talking about what’s actually going on. There’s so many feelings about how things should be. Drake’s over here talking about how he really wants lunch, and I’m sitting over here like, you guys are out of money. Do you realize how serious this is? This scenario happens a lot with couples where they are both fixated on something. It feels so important. Meanwhile, their financial life is on fire.

[00:53:16] And this is the cost of avoiding being honest about money, specifically, number one, knowing your numbers, and number two, mastering your money psychology. Drake and Kara have been talking at each other for so long that they can’t even see that they are running out of money. The house is on fire, and they are arguing about who loaded the dishwasher wrong.

[Interview]

[00:53:43] Drake: I would say at least 12k is what I need to bring in this month.

[00:53:49] Ramit: And how much are you going to bring in, Kara? Because you’re going to be spending a lot more time on family things.

[00:53:56] Kara: For this month, for the month of July?

[00:53:58] Ramit: Yeah.

[00:54:02] Kara: I’ll be at seven.

[00:54:03] Ramit: Okay. All right. Well, at 12,000, that’s a great month. That’s 19,000 that month. Drake, you feel confident about that?

[00:54:16] Drake: I do. 

[00:54:16] Ramit: That’s a great answer. Now, if you bring in 12k–

[00:54:20] Drake: I get a kiss on my neck.

[00:54:22] Ramit: Definitely that.

[00:54:23] Drake: I treat my wife to something amazing.

[00:54:26] Ramit: Beautiful. Where does the money go? 

[00:54:28] Drake: Darling, how would you feel with paying down more debt? 

[00:54:31] Kara: The category that I feel like it’s a glaring zero here is, um, setting up some savings plan.

[00:54:42] Ramit: 

[00:54:42] Is it possible to do both? Can you accelerate your debt payments and more towards the emergency fund?

[00:54:49] Drake: I do believe we have that in the budget. 

[00:54:52] Ramit: Kara?

[00:54:56] Kara: Yeah.

[00:54:59] Ramit: Of course, you can choose which one weighs more. But I agree. I agree with both of you. I agree with Drake that I don’t want to be paying this high interest credit card debt. And at the same time, I see what Kara says. I’m terrified that you have no savings. I’m not going to leave you just hanging. I like to minimize risk. All right. So what do we decide? 3,500 bucks?

[00:55:23] Drake: Let’s put another 1,000 in the emergency fund.

[00:55:27] Ramit: All right. So 2,500 a month going to emergency fund. How’s that make you feel Kara?

[00:55:32] Kara: I like that number.

 [00:55:33] Ramit: All right. I like it too. And? What do you want to do? You got 2,500 bucks. 

[00:55:39] Drake: We need some vacation.

[00:55:41] Ramit: Uh, no, you– 

[00:55:42] Kara: Was that a vacation–

[00:55:43] Ramit: Hold on. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, you do not need a vacation when you have 339,000 of debt and no savings. 

[00:55:52] Drake: Okay, I hear you. I hear you.

[00:55:54] Ramit: You better hear me and this sentence right now. You guys do not have enough money to be taking vacations right now. I’m telling you right now. You want to go to the beach? Be my guest. But you just do not. You are too close to being out of your house with two little kids. It is not good.

[00:56:11] Drake: Right.

[00:56:12] Ramit: What do you want to do with the money?

[00:56:17] Drake: What do you suggest? How do you suggest we optimize that last 2,500?

[00:56:24] Kara: I think I’m with Drake here, which is, help us.

[00:56:29] Ramit: You want to help. Okay. I’ll happily do it. In my opinion, I am so scared of the two of you having no savings, and having two young kids, and this extremely risky bet you’re making that Drake can make $12,000 essentially every month ongoing. It scares me. You know what I would do? I would put that 2,000 bucks in savings because let me tell you what’s going to happen. And you know this because you lived it. Life doesn’t only go like this. Life goes like this, and then this. And we have to prepare for all those things. 

[00:57:10] I think Drake’s going to nail it. He’s going to nail that $12,000 this month. He’s going to bring that home. It’s going to be amazing. Nice kisses. You’re going to have a great time. I think maybe a couple months from now, it’s going to be a tough month. And you’re going to go, oh, shit. I didn’t bring home 12k. It was only 8k, or 4k. And now you’re in a real bind. 

[00:57:30] And that’s where those big savings come into play. Your savings goals are 30%. Most of the time, people’s are five to 10, but yours are 30. Why? Because you have no savings, and you are living in a very risky environment. You need those savings. So you are intentionally overspending on savings. And then finally, your guilt-free spending is 3%. I usually recommend 20 to 35%, but you guys are in crisis, and so you’re not eating out, and you’re not taking a vacation. You’re not doing any of it. Not for the foreseeable future. It’s tough. The way that you’re going to live is extremely difficult. Do you want it? You’re down for it, Drake?

[00:58:21] Drake: Mm-hmm. I am.

[00:58:23] Ramit: Kara?

[00:58:23] Kara: Yeah. 

[00:58:27] Ramit: It can be done. I’ve seen it many times. But it requires, what? 

[00:58:34] Kara: Teamwork.

[00:58:35] Ramit: Yeah. Total teamwork. You’re going to try to compete at very high levels, and that means you both need to be firing, and you both need to be connected. What happens if it doesn’t work? What happens if, Drake, you don’t bring home 12k this month? What’s the plan?

[00:59:02] Drake: If I could put some efforts towards her business and bringing in more clients on her side and helping facilitate the fulfillment on that end, I feel like that would be great as well.

[00:59:19] Ramit: Oh, that’s an interesting idea. Kara, what do you think about that?

[00:59:23] Kara: I wish that was our plan A, to be honest. So I love it.

[00:59:28] Ramit: What? I didn’t know that he could help with your business, which is a proven quantity. Why not just do that?

[00:59:40] Drake: Because she’s staying up all night with the baby. She’s very frustrated, very stressed, and she doesn’t need any extra stress. That’s from my perspective, but darling, what do you think?

[00:59:54] Ramit: Love that question.

[00:59:56] Kara: I love that question too. I think the reason we’re not doing that is because of the gender role dynamic situation, meaning Drake has asked for this position. He’s asked to be the provider, and he’s asked to take the leadership, and I am willing to give it a try, and trust him, and let it go his way. Um, and so that’s how the conversation has gone.

[01:00:30] Ramit: Drake?

[01:00:32] Drake: I think it’s less to do with the gender role aspect of it and more of you literally being up all night with the baby. And you don’t need to take on anybody else’s problems or whatever.

[01:00:53] Kara: I appreciate what you’re saying, because I wanted some recognition that this shit is hard, and I’m struggling. And the silver lining to what has happened over the last few years is a business where fulfillment is easy. So if you can solve the upfront problem, the lead generation, and marketing, and even part of the sales problem, which I think sales is where you’re saying like, oh, let’s not throw her into 13 sales calls a week, right?

[01:01:31] Drake: Mm-hmm.

[01:01:31] Kara: But if we could problem solve those things, which your business does, and work as a team, I’m okay with fulfillment. I feel fine.

[01:01:41] Ramit: I don’t know the dynamics in particular. If there’s a crisis like the one I see where you have no savings and two little kids, then I am merciless, and I’m a mercenary. I’m only looking for, how do we get out of the hole? And I am purely saying, what has the highest likelihood of us making money right away? And from what I’m hearing, again, I don’t know the dynamics in particular, but it’s the business that’s been running for three years and seems like you could flip a switch and double or triple the income overnight. No risk.

[01:02:22] Drake: Mm-hmm.

[01:02:24] Ramit: Kara, how much could you make if you and Drake worked as a team?

[01:02:29] Kara: If we worked as a team, I feel confident we could get to the 15k number.

[01:02:34] Ramit: Okay. All right. So basically, similar to what he would make. Drake, what do you think about my approach? What’s the highest likelihood of success, lowest risk?

[01:02:48] Drake: I think that that’s a sure shot.

[01:02:51] Ramit: That’s cool. That’s collaboration. So that’s the energy that I want to see. Look at Kara’s face. What do you notice about it? Did you see it when you said that? 

[01:03:02] Kara: I smiled and nodded.

[01:03:04] Ramit: Why?

[01:03:06] Kara: Because that’s exactly what I want. That’s what we need.

[01:03:11] Ramit: What is that?

[01:03:11] Kara: Teamwork.

[01:03:12] Drake: Teamwork. 

[Narration] 

[01:03:14] Ramit: Okay, that was surprising. It happened really fast at the end where Drake and Kara started to realize that maybe Drake can actually help Kara with her business, and that could be a win-win for everybody. I did not expect that to happen. Couples need to come to their own conclusion when they speak to me because it’s their rich life, not mine. But it is amazing how once they were able to connect, suddenly, all these possibilities opened up that were not even conceivable when we first started talking. I want to share their follow ups, and I have them on video. So if you’re listening on audio, come on over to YouTube so you can actually see their follow ups. Here we go. Let’s hear from Drake first.

[01:03:57] Drake: What’s going on? So what surprised me the most about this podcast? I would say it’s the part where my wife started talking about the power dynamic that shifted once I made 17k in a month. I noticed once I brought that money in, something changed, and I didn’t really know what it was, and I didn’t want to admit to myself that there was that power dynamic between us. But when she started talking about it, it all clicked.

[01:04:31] And I would say that the biggest takeaway that I got is I really need to improve my communication. I can’t use ADD as an excuse. I refuse to because if I use that as an excuse, then I will forever speak in this manner. I want to be very concise, and I feel like I owe it to my wife to be very concise and very direct. 

[01:04:57] This was another surprising moment. When I was very direct with her, the way she received it, I didn’t expect that. You’re a tricky guy, man. I didn’t expect couples therapy, but I appreciate it. For anyone who’s watching this, I will say, first and foremost, I felt the genuine concern and genuine care that Ramit had for our family. So thank you, Ramit.

[Narration]

[01:05:25] Ramit: And next, let’s hear from Kara.

[Interview]

[01:05:27] Kara: What surprised me most about the conversation was how investigating our interpersonal dynamic, aside from money, led to the root cause of our biggest challenge with money, which was that we were not being on the same team. When we did the conscious spending plan the second time, I walked away feeling like, yes. He knows. I know. We know. And it makes sense for both of us where our money is going. I know that we can collaborate even more so that when we’re out of crisis mode in six months, whenever we do the conscious spending plan again, I know we can do it again. Um, and that for me is gold. It’s huge. 

[01:06:13] My other key takeaway is that being on the same team, being teammates about money makes visualizing the future and overcoming these crazy challenges I’ve had in life feel more doable. There’s less of a block. And so, overall, it’s been really powerful for us and also just me personally. So thank you so much for your time, Ramit.

[01:06:35] Ramit: Well, I appreciate Kara and Drake coming. I also appreciate that they sent a written follow up where they added a ton of detail to their plan. And I have to say, I am very impressed with the level of detail. I’m going to link to that in the show notes below. If you’re curious to see what that plan looks like, go ahead and check it out.

[01:06:54] Please remember, this Saturday, podcast newsletter on money psychology. It only comes out once. So you have to sign up to get this week’s issue. After that, you will never be able to get that issue again. The podcast newsletter is free, and it is at iwt.com/podcastnewsletter. Thanks for listening.