Episode #113: “I feel like the parent in our marriage. And I hate it”

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Matt: [00:00:00] Acting took me some great places. And then I came back home to New York, and all of a sudden, none of that fucking mattered. You were just another shithead serving steaks. Being a waiter or actor makes you feel like you’re failing in life. I went from being someone respected in my field to just some schlub. And that I think made me feel pretty diminished for a long time. Maybe my alcoholism isn’t that much worse. No, I have a really hard time admitting that I’m worth saving my money for.

Nicole: [00:00:35] There’s tension because we always feel broke, even though we have tons of money.

Matt: [00:00:40] I feel sometimes like I don’t have the tools necessary to live up to the expectations I promised I could meet. My reaction is to back away from all things money related because I’m scared. I’m scared of money, to be honest. 

[Narration]

Ramit Sethi: [00:01:05] I’d like you to meet Nicole who’s 41 and Matt who’s 37. They’ve been together for nine years, and you can tell, in this conversation that they really love each other. But in their relationship, there’s been alcoholism, family debts, and career difficulties. And all of that has left lasting marks that make it hard for Nicole and Matt to be on the same page about money.

Nicole feels that Matt doesn’t care, that she’s always in the front seat pulling him along. And in fact, he will even admit that. But recently, he started making a lot more money, and he’s realized that even though he’s making more, he continues to struggle with his money psychology. Let’s get into today’s conversation. 

[Interview]

Nicole: [00:01:47] We share a budgeting tool together. And the truth is that I use this budgeting tool, and he’ll occasionally jump in and try to make sure that everything’s in order. And I was going through and making sure that everything was where it was supposed to be. I checked in on his budget piece, and I saw that he had a credit card interest payment that got charged.

Ramit Sethi: [00:02:12] And what happened when you saw that interest charge?

Nicole: [00:02:15] I got pretty upset, and I came to talk to him about it. Hey, what’s going on? You told me that you paid your credit card off in full.

Ramit Sethi: [00:02:23] What did you say to her?

Matt: [00:02:27] I’m sorry. I’ll fix it. And I did. But it doesn’t mean that behavior that caused that to occur isn’t a problem.

Nicole: [00:02:36] The illustration there of not being on the same page is that an interest charge, 35 bucks, whatever it is, all that stuff adds up. I’ve got future plans in mind that I want this money to go toward. When these things slip through the cracks, it makes me feel like we’re not both looking at the same big vision.

Ramit Sethi: [00:03:00] Is it about the $35? If you incurred a $35 interest charge every three months for the rest of your life, would you be able to afford that?

Nicole: [00:03:08] Yeah. It’s not about that. It’s the principle of the thing, and it’s about feeling like things are being kept from me.

Ramit Sethi: [00:03:17] And so when you mentioned that you are the one who primarily logs into the budgeting app and then you check on his budget, when you check on it, what does that mean?

Nicole: [00:03:27] I’ll check in to see if it’s updated. I’ll check in to see if he’s where he told me he is, if the savings looks like what we’ve talked about, and if the credit cards are paid off. I wasn’t entirely surprised to see that.

Ramit Sethi: [00:03:46] How would you characterize that relationship where you check in on his budget?

Nicole: [00:03:50] It’s like parent-child. I hate it. 

Ramit Sethi: [00:03:54] You hate it. Why?

Nicole: [00:03:56] I don’t think that’s a healthy relationship for partners. It puts me in a position to have to feel like I’m the boss and I have to come in and tell somebody else to be responsible. I don’t know. It doesn’t create a good environment between us.

Ramit Sethi: [00:04:15] How long have you two been together?

Nicole: [00:04:17] Nine years.

Ramit Sethi: [00:04:18] And how long have you been what you would characterize as the parent when it comes to money?

Nicole: [00:04:25] The whole time.

Matt: [00:04:27] Day one.

Ramit Sethi: [00:04:28] Yeah.

Nicole: [00:04:28] What? What do you mean day one? Like date one?

Nicole: [00:04:31] No.

Matt: [00:04:32] Day two.

Nicole: [00:04:33] Yeah, right.

Ramit Sethi: [00:04:34] How did that come up on day two?

Matt: [00:04:37] Well, no. As soon as we started spending a lot of time together, I was living in Manhattan. I’m an actor, and I’ve always been just getting by, just paying the rent. Nicole had this great corporate job, a salary. That was something I was not familiar with. That was something that was astounding to me. 

And I have a really hard time getting out of this mindset of earn it, spend it. I’ve got addiction issues. I’m a recovering alcoholic. I’ve got impulse issues. And that all adds up to how I spend my money. I just built bad habits, I think, and I never got a system in place to take control of that and to put away for my future.

Ramit Sethi: [00:05:26] Just so I’m clear, are you in recovery?

Matt: [00:05:28] Yeah.

Ramit Sethi: [00:05:29] Okay.

Matt: [00:05:29] Five years.

Ramit Sethi: [00:05:30] Oh, congratulations. Was your spending behavior different when you were not in recovery versus when you got into recovery?

Matt: [00:05:38] I was spending a lot less money on booze. But don’t think that– 

Ramit Sethi: [00:05:41] That doesn’t surprise me.

Matt: [00:05:44] COVID actually gave me an opportunity to get a job in tech, and now I’m earning a salary. And we always say that now we have a partnership. I would say the last year and a half or so has been more like a financial partnership instead of this parent relationship. And I understand why Nicole was so upset about the credit card thing, because I spent so many years lying to myself, promising myself I would do better, but I never really did.  

And you know how an addict talks. Oh, I’ll be good for you. You know me. I’ll be good next time. I’ll be good. And it just felt a little bit like that when she noticed that discrepancy, that charge of interest. And it really didn’t feel good. I was really excited that we were going to be able to talk to you because I need some guidance. I always said I was never a numbers guy, but that’s really just an excuse to be lazy, I think.

Ramit Sethi: [00:06:38] Matt, you used to be an actor, right?

Matt: [00:06:41] I’m still an actor.

Ramit Sethi: [00:06:42] You’re still an actor. Okay. Do you get paid for acting work that you do?

Matt: [00:06:46] Mm-hmm.

Ramit Sethi: [00:06:47] Okay. And I assume that that is sporadic or variable income. Is that fair?

Matt: [00:06:52] Yeah.

Ramit Sethi: [00:06:53] Okay. And then you have a full-time job, which is what, freelance, or is it W-2?

Matt: [00:06:58] No, that’s a full-time salaried position.

Ramit Sethi: [00:07:02] Stable income?

Matt: [00:07:03] Yeah. I did a few things like making sure I take money out to put toward my 401K. I put aside a little bit of money in an emergency fund, but day-to-day, I’m not really changing. I have simple tastes and 10 times more money than I used to. So I’m spending maybe twice as much as I was, but earning a lot more.

Nicole: [00:07:29] That spending hasn’t really changed since the addiction has stopped because I think the real difference is that he’s got more money now and can cover himself. He was in a position before where every paycheck, every dollar was just making it to the next one.

Ramit Sethi: [00:07:50] Yeah. Is it one of those examples where somebody has bad habits with money and they start making a lot more and the habits don’t really change at all? There’s just more money to use the same habits with.

Nicole: [00:08:04] I think so.

Ramit Sethi: [00:08:05] Why are you paying off credit cards manually, Matt?

Matt: [00:08:08] I don’t know. You’re asking a six-year old how the car operates. I don’t even know how to set up an automatic pay. Honestly, I have not given myself the time to think about how to do this properly because I just get it done, like taking my medicine, and move on with my day. And I don’t think about it again until I have to think about it.

Ramit Sethi: [00:08:31] Okay, that’s a fair answer. What I’m already hearing is certain behaviors that are more indicative of someone just starting out their career, someone in a career with really variable income, like an actor. They’re always like, am I going to have enough to make it by this month? I got to borrow from here. Da da da da. But you’re not in that situation anymore.

Matt: [00:08:52] I need refreshers because I don’t emotionally invest in this stuff. I’ve really got to find a way to make it more meaningful at least a little bit. My expenses are chaotic and erratic, and if I set a specific amount to pay off each month, I’m afraid I wouldn’t have it or– 

Ramit Sethi: [00:09:14] Do you like money?

Matt: [00:09:15] My reaction is to back away from all things money related because I’m scared. I’m scared of money, to be honest.

Ramit Sethi: [00:09:27] Yeah. And so when you think about it, what does it feel like?

Matt: [00:09:33] It feels a little overwhelming to me, to be honest. Thinking about how I’m going to split up, and what I need to survive, and what I need to enjoy my life. And I would like to be making enough money that I don’t have to think about it.

Ramit Sethi: [00:09:50] Are you?

Ramit Sethi: [00:09:52] Not yet.

Ramit Sethi: [00:09:54] How much do you need to make more?

Matt: [00:09:57] I think if I could do about, and Nicole back me up here if you think my numbers are right, if I could double what I’m making.

Ramit Sethi: [00:10:07] Okay. Hold on. I have a question for you. If you doubled your income, would you still be manually checking on your credit card every month? Tell the truth. Nicole’s smiling.

Matt: [00:10:21] I don’t know. I like to intervene and do it manually. I feel like I’m taking more control of it. Maybe. I don’t know.

Nicole: [00:10:29] I do it too.

Ramit Sethi: [00:10:30] Okay. You do it too. Why? You like the control?

Nicole: [00:10:33] Oh, yeah.

Ramit Sethi: [00:10:33] You both like control?

Nicole: [00:10:35] Yeah. No one’s into control over money as much as I am.

Ramit Sethi: [00:10:39] Oh, okay. You’re like a ten out of ten controller.

Nicole: [00:10:42] Yeah. Yeah.

Ramit Sethi: [00:10:42] Does it work for you?

Nicole: [00:10:45] I mean, define work. If work is constant anxiety over money, even as a person who has money, then, yes, it is working so good.

Ramit Sethi: [00:10:55] Is there another definition of work that we might use? What might my definition of money working for me mean?

Nicole: [00:11:02] Knowing that your money is going to the places where it needs to go and where you want it to go.

Ramit Sethi: [00:11:07] Yeah. Keep going.

Nicole: [00:11:07] And then not worrying about it and just living the life that it gives you.

Ramit Sethi: [00:11:14] Mm. Do you ever see a future where that’s possible for you?

Nicole: [00:11:20] I think it would take a lot of work. A lot of big anxiety tied up with feeling like I have enough and feeling like I’m going to be able to– having enough now is going to translate into having enough down the road.

Ramit Sethi: [00:11:32] Yeah. And is that independent of Matt? If Matt were not in the picture, would you still feel that way?

Nicole: [00:11:38] Yes, absolutely. I think that it is amplified, having a partner who I don’t know if we’re going to get there together.

Ramit Sethi: [00:11:51] Do you only talk about money when there’s a problem?

Nicole: [00:11:55] I mean, for a long time, there were only problems.

Matt: [00:11:58] Nicole made it very clear from the beginning of the relationship, I want a partner, even if we’re contributing 70/30, contribute what you can toward our future, toward paying for renovations for the house and trips. We love to travel. It’s very important part of our lives. 

And she wasn’t going to be in a relationship with someone who couldn’t do it. And I thought I could, and I tried, and I’m just not very good at keeping that promise, I guess. But I want to take a little bit of the onus off of her because she made it very clear from the beginning what she wanted.

Ramit Sethi: [00:12:41] And finally, during COVID, you said, okay, you lost your job, you got to find something else because you have to bring in some money. And then he did.

Nicole: [00:12:53] Yes.

Ramit Sethi: [00:12:54] Any lessons from that?

Nicole: [00:12:57] The first lesson was, why didn’t you do this how many years ago? Because you always were capable of doing it.

Ramit Sethi: [00:13:05] And what is the answer to your own question? Why didn’t he do it? Can you answer that for me, please, Nicole?

Nicole: [00:13:11] Because he wasn’t ready. I don’t know. Maybe there wasn’t enough pain.

Ramit Sethi: [00:13:15] Keep going.

Nicole: [00:13:19] And, oh, I see. Yeah. Because there were no consequences. Because he would fall short, and I would pay for the thing, and we’d get to still go on the trips, and do all the fun stuff, and go out to dinner. And I’d be pissed about it, but apparently that wasn’t enough.

Ramit Sethi: [00:13:34] It just becomes part of the relationship.

Matt: [00:13:37] It’s like you turned this into an episode of intervention. Found the enabler.

Ramit Sethi: [00:13:43] I mean, what we think of as pain is construed differently by different people. To have one partner a little pissed off once in a while is very acceptable to most people in a relationship, especially if you get to live a good life, and travel, etc. And  we have these cultural examples of the costanzas and this and that. Like, oh, ha ha ha ha, they’re always sniping at each other. It’s funny. 

But I think what’s happened now is that from what you two have told me, you’ve had this huge change in your relationship, and the income. And now you both have more money than ever before, and the dynamics have changed, but there’s still some remnants of those old behaviors and attitudes. And that’s concerning.

Nicole: [00:14:32] Right.

Ramit Sethi: [00:14:34] Am I reading it right, Matt?

Matt: [00:14:35] Yeah. 

[Narration]

Ramit Sethi: [00:14:37] There are a couple of clues I want to highlight. First, it’s always so funny how people have this deep belief about how they’ll act one day in the future. And if you ask them even a single question, their entire belief structure often just crumbles.  

Matt’s like, I need to double my income to not have to think about it. I’m like, if you tripled your income, would you still be logging into your credit cards manually? And then he sheepishly admits, yeah, he would, and that he likes control. Then Nicole goes, I like control. I go, is it working? She goes, well, I feel constant anxiety over money, so I guess not. 

Honestly, I just love these answers. They are so real. Most people have very little insight into their own attitudes and behaviors. We think we know what makes us happy, but really we often just mimetically chase what other people do, which is why so many people end up buying a house in the suburbs, or getting a fancy car, making a certain amount of money and still feeling empty inside.

So whenever someone tells me if I had $5 million, I would never– I just start going. In my head, I’m already thinking about something soothing, like my favorite hotel rooms around the world. You don’t know what you would do with $5 million or $10 million. We don’t know what we would do in different life circumstances. We often don’t even know why we bought that thing last Thursday. This podcast is about helping you understand why you do the things you do so you can live your rich life.

[Interview]

Ramit Sethi: [00:16:11] Complete the sentence for me, Nicole. If I don’t invest as much as possible, then I might end up–

Nicole: [00:16:17] Living under a bridge.

Ramit Sethi: [00:16:19] Thank you. Thank you. That’s real. Have you ever said that before?

Nicole: [00:16:23] Yes, many times.

Ramit Sethi: [00:16:24] And where did you get that message from? What movie, what mom, or friend said that to you?

Nicole: [00:16:29] I don’t know. We always feel broke, even though we have tons of money.

Ramit Sethi: [00:16:33] Nobody ever knows us. Nicole, did you grow up poor?

Nicole: [00:16:39] No. Middle class.

Ramit Sethi: [00:16:41] Where did this come from? This need of like, oh my God, I’m going to end up in a van, and I’m going to lose it all. Where did it come from?

Nicole: [00:16:48] I think seeing people I know and relatives get to their retirement and not be in the position that they thought they were going to be in, or that they are on a very fixed income.

Ramit Sethi: [00:17:06] So they can’t do anything.

Nicole: [00:17:07] They can’t do anything. And these are folks who I had always thought of as really having their shit together, and the travelers, and the family who was always hosting, and had the pool, and had it all together. And now life looks very different.

There was a moment when they had to sell their house, when they couldn’t afford the house anymore. And they had to sell the house and move to a new and much smaller place in an area that they didn’t want to live in. And now they’re waiting for sales at Walmart to make it to the next paycheck. And that was never the case.

Ramit Sethi: [00:17:44] Do you think that they know what happened? Do they understand?

Nicole: [00:17:52] I don’t know.

Ramit Sethi: [00:17:54] It’s very difficult for us to make the connection between what we do now, for example, in your 30s and 40s with what happens 25 years from now. It’s very difficult. It’s even harder to look back in your 60s and 70s. First of all, just mathematically, we don’t understand compounding and things like that. But psychologically, it’s really devastating to look back and admit, oh my gosh, that pool actually cost me $500,000 when I add up all the expenses.

It’s really hard. We would never say that. Nobody who’s seven years old would say, well, we loved it with our grandkids. I’m glad you took that lesson away, Nicole. But I wonder if there’s a way to do it more positively. Less fear based. What would that look like if you were to say– instead of I don’t want to end up in a van, what could you say instead that would be more constructive?

Nicole: [00:19:00] I think I’m not in that same position, and I am making conscious choices now so that I won’t be in that position.

Ramit Sethi: [00:19:16] Financially speaking, how does that feel?

Nicole: [00:19:20] That feels really good. And that last piece. I mean, I don’t think I’ll get there without him.

Ramit Sethi: [00:19:31] Yeah.

Matt: [00:19:32] And if I can interject with something, I think that just by virtue of being the intelligent, careful, and fantastic person you are, you’re already on the trajectory not to end up that way. I’m not saying that things can’t happen. I’m not saying that things are automatically going to go according to plan, but you don’t have to try so hard. You already do it just by virtue of being true to yourself.

We’ve also had a series of deaths in the family where they were in, I’m not going to say dire straits, but complicated financial situations and having to be the ones who cleaned all that up really put it into perspective that we can’t be like this when it’s our time to go. We don’t want to leave our loved ones with a bunch of bills to pay.

Ramit Sethi: [00:20:34] The deaths in the family, were they unexpected?

Nicole: [00:20:39] Yeah. My uncle passed away. I was his caretaker for the last couple of years. I mean, it’s spectacularly terrible with paperwork and with– so we had to learn a lot really fast about how to manage a lot of this stuff, and get a will put together, and make sure that his home was in his name and not the name of his ex-partner from 20 years ago.

Ramit Sethi: [00:21:07] What did you learn from that process of your uncle passing away? And I’m sorry he passed away

Nicole: [00:21:12] There are a couple of things. I mean, how much people will just ignore the circumstances that are right in front of them.

Ramit Sethi: [00:21:26] Like?

Nicole: [00:21:28] My uncle, going through this, had a year and a half, and probably a good portion of that, he was in good enough health that he could have taken care of a lot of these things, and he just didn’t want to talk about it. Didn’t want to deal with it. And seeing how each time he put these decisions off, it was exponentially more difficult for us to get them taken care of down the road.

Ramit Sethi: [00:21:56] I’m curious what lessons you took away for yourself.

Nicole: [00:22:00] That I don’t want to be that kind of a burden for my nieces and my family. I also took away how much easier it is, frankly, to die when you have resources.

Ramit Sethi: [00:22:19] Okay. Thank you for that. Matt, were you involved in Nicole’s process with her uncle?

Matt: [00:22:25] Yes. Very much so.

Ramit Sethi: [00:22:26] You were? Okay. What lessons did you take away?

Matt: [00:22:34] Denial is a powerful thing. It can change a person from an intelligent business person to a shell of a person just trying to get by without any real options in their life. It can force you into a corner until you have no freedom left. I think he was afraid to face a lot of things. Fear of facing his bad choices.

Fear of facing the reality of the situation, of how much time he had wasted doing this or that, instead of making sure he had a better future, pretending things didn’t exist, like his sickness. He would constantly talk about how it was not a big deal. And it really was. And the same thing was true with his finances.

Ramit Sethi: [00:23:30] Did you ever do any of those things in your own life, Matt?

Matt: [00:23:34] Oh, yeah. Oh, procrastinate? 

Ramit Sethi: [00:23:36] Yeah. Okay, so you see the similarities between her uncle and your own decisions?

Matt: [00:23:42] Definitely.

Ramit Sethi: [00:23:43] Does it change anything for you?

Matt: [00:23:46] No, I don’t think it does.

[Narration]

Ramit Sethi: [00:23:47] First of all, all of you freaks are going to die. It’s going to happen. Why are we so afraid to talk about it? I already told my wife the several conditions under which I don’t want to live anymore. For example, if I can’t squat at least 225 for one rep, end it. I made my parents talk about a will and appointing an executor.

If you can’t even discuss the fact that you’re going to die, how are you going to live a rich life? It’s impossible. You’re not even acknowledging basic biology, much less calculating how much money you need, how compound interest works, none of it. It’s like sitting there asking an orangutan to run a nuclear reactor. They don’t know what a button is. Whatever.

You don’t want to talk about your impending death, it’s your life. Back to Nicole and Matt. Now let’s get specific with their vision. Let’s focus on Matt, who hasn’t allowed himself the space to dream when it comes to his money. And when I do that, it actually opens up a pretty interesting conversation.

[Interview]

Nicole: [00:24:42] I wish there was more specificity around what he wants.

Ramit Sethi: [00:24:50] Ask him. I’ll listen.

Nicole: [00:24:53] What do you want? What do you want the money to do for you? And where do you want to be? What do you want to do?

Matt: [00:25:01] In some ways, I don’t know how to be more specific than I already have. I want to be able to live to 110 in a nice retirement community with a pool. And I want to go to Japan every year for the rest of my life. And I want to eat at five-star restaurants with you and have a house full of dogs.

Nicole: [00:25:25] Yeah, that’s great. I often feel like I’m in the driver’s seat. I say, hey, I want this. I want to be moving toward this goal. I want this kind of house, etc. And a lot of times it feels like you just say, yeah, me too. I’ll do that too.

Matt: [00:25:42] But when you are so concise and clear and your ideas are so good, what else can I say? I’m not going to have a competing idea to your great idea to get us this house. It was fantastic. I know that you feel like I’m not engaged enough, but just saying, yeah, okay, that means that I agree with you. So if we’re both thinking the same thing, why would I have more input?

Nicole: [00:26:08] Okay. I’m looking for an improv. Yes, and. I think.

Matt: [00:26:13] Sure. Okay. I’ll keep that in mind.

Ramit Sethi: [00:26:16] Nicole, can you tell him why you’re looking for that?

Nicole: [00:26:19] I think it goes back to feeling like we have this parent-child relationship, and don’t want to feel like I’m just dragging you into doing the things that I want to do.

Ramit Sethi: [00:26:31] What do you want to feel like if– right now you’re dragging him like, what are those things on a boat? You pull people on a boat with those? No, like a jet ski or whatever.

Nicole: [00:26:41] Yeah. Yeah. Those tubes or whatever.

Ramit Sethi: [00:26:42] As you can tell, I don’t really do water sports. Yeah. That’s the metaphor that you currently have. He’s in the back. He’s having the time of his life. 

Nicole: [00:26:49] He’s having a great time.

Ramit Sethi: [00:26:49] Yeah. He’s like, oh. He’s got one of those sofas. You’re flipping around. He’s having a great time. You’re in the boat. You’re deciding, do I turn left? Do I turn right? Am I going too fast? I got to look behind me. Is the weight too big? What’s a different metaphor for what you would like instead of this boat?

Nicole: [00:27:05] You know those things that bachelorette parties ride on where everybody’s in the back pedaling together?

Ramit Sethi: [00:27:10] Like in Nashville?

Matt: [00:27:12] Like a bike bar.

Ramit Sethi: [00:27:13] Yes. What do you think, Matt? You want to get on the bike bar in Nashville as a bachelorette?

Nicole: [00:27:17] Then we’re both having fun.

Matt: [00:27:19] Even the bike bar only goes in one direction.

Ramit Sethi: [00:27:22] Matt, you seem like a pretty smart guy. I have a feeling you could have a really great idea that’s actually better than Nicole’s. From what I have observed, you’ve mentioned travel, dogs, Japan. Matt, take one of those that’s meaningful to you. Which one would it be?

Matt: [00:27:40] Right now, Japan.

Ramit Sethi: [00:27:42] Love it. Who plans your trips to Japan?

Matt: [00:27:46] We both do.

Ramit Sethi: [00:27:48] All right. That’s good. That’s a great answer. Matt, what would make your next trip to Japan magical? Not just nice. Not even great, but truly magical.

Matt: [00:28:02] Well, we’re going in August, and we’re going to be there during the Festival of the Dead, and I’m going to be lighting up a candle for my brother who passed away in October. And it’s going to be really special.

Ramit Sethi: [00:28:27] I’m sorry to hear about your brother.

Matt: [00:28:29] It’s okay. That would make it really special.

Ramit Sethi: [00:28:36] I love that. Sounds like you’re planning to do that and honor him. Is this a trip centered around the memory of your brother?

Matt: [00:28:45] No. We just happened to go places where cool shit is happening. We were just in Lisbon, and they were just doing Mardi Gras, and I don’t know, we just go, and it just happens to be the best time to be there. I don’t know how it happens.

Ramit Sethi: [00:29:00] It’s something special about that.

Matt: [00:29:02] Yeah.

Ramit Sethi: [00:29:02] So keep going on that for me. You’re there. You have your brother’s memory. You’re honoring that. That alone, it’s very special. And maybe there’s a reason that you’re ending up in Japan at that very specific time. What would make this trip memorable for you, magical for the two of you?

Matt: [00:29:32] It would be great to go away for three weeks without wondering about paying Nicole back for anything because that has been the relationship pretty much so far. She puts out the money, and I spend a few months paying her back. If we could just go with everything already paid for, that would be very satisfying.

Ramit Sethi: [00:30:01] What would it feel like to you?

Matt: [00:30:10] It would feel grown up. Every time I hit a milestone financially, I feel more grown up.

Ramit Sethi: [00:30:25] I love that.

Matt: [00:30:27] Being a  waiter or actor makes you feel like you’re failing in life. I was 32 or 33 feeling like I was 21.

Ramit Sethi: [00:30:41] And you felt like that because what?

Matt: [00:30:45] Because I was living off tips, paycheck-to-paycheck, not setting anything aside, not planning anything financially.

Ramit Sethi: [00:30:52] And you’re not doing that anymore?

Matt: [00:30:53] No, not really.

Ramit Sethi: [00:30:55] Have you internalized that?

Matt: [00:30:59] No. I have a really hard time admitting that I’m worth saving my money for and preparing a future for. Being really poor for a really long time makes you, I don’t know. It makes some people– gives a fire to some people, puts a fire under their ass. For me, it made me feel like I was failing, made my alcoholism that much worse. And it’s because of Nicole that I was able to stop drinking and start focusing on the things that are important.

Ramit Sethi: [00:31:32] Wow.

Matt: [00:31:33] And I went to school and got my master’s, and I taught for years, and acting took me some great places. And then I came back home to New York, and all of a sudden, none of that fucking mattered. You were just another shithead serving steaks. And I remember coming back from grad school, and then my fiancé and I broke up, and that was a terrible time in my life.

And I didn’t have anything, not even a chance to take a break and absorb that because I had to go back to work and start working my fingers to the bone right away, living in Manhattan, paying a lot of rent. I went from being someone respected in my field to just some schlub. And that, I think, made me feel pretty diminished for a long time. I feel sometimes like I don’t have the tools necessary to live up to the expectations I promised I could meet.

Ramit Sethi: [00:32:44] Still feel that way or no?

Matt: [00:32:50] No, I don’t think so.

Ramit Sethi: [00:32:53] Okay.

Matt: [00:32:54] I don’t think so. 

Ramit Sethi: [00:32:56] Nicole, I noticed you were also wiping away some tears hearing that from Matt. Can you tell us why?

Nicole: [00:33:06] Hearing him talk about not feeling worthy, wondering if I’ve contributed to that. It is huge to go from working in the service industry for your whole career to pivoting to sitting at a desk and being in tech. And not just doing it, but being great at it, which he has been. He doesn’t give himself the credit. He doesn’t take the time to really ingest what an amazing transition he’s made. And what a huge deal it is.

Ramit Sethi: [00:33:36] You want to tell him?

Nicole: [00:33:37] What you’ve done in the last three years, and I see this in you every time you apply yourself, whether it’s your sobriety or making this career transition, I’ve never seen anybody do work like that for themselves. I’m so proud of you. And I hope I tell you that enough, but I’m so proud of you. It’s not easy, and it’s not something that everybody could do.

Matt: [00:34:15] Thank you.

Ramit Sethi: [00:34:18] I love hearing that. Matt, how do you receive that from Nicole? How does it strike you?

Matt: [00:34:24] I love her so much. And I appreciate her for that. She saved my life. She got me to stop drinking. She got me to believe in myself again. She got me to–

Nicole: [00:34:38] But you did that.

Ramit Sethi: [00:34:40] You know what I love hearing from the two of you is a lot of gratitude. I really, really love it. And it’s very clear. It’s evident. There’s a very complex relationship you both have with money individually and together. And a lot of it is operating rationally from the situation you used to be in.

Nicole making way more. Matt having sporadic income. Matt being an alcoholic. All different dynamics. Uncles passing away. It makes sense. But it’s not serving you anymore. And I wonder if there’s a way for us to change this dynamic to more align with where you both are in life.

Nicole: [00:35:30] Yeah. I hope so.

Ramit Sethi: [00:35:32] Matt.

Matt: [00:35:33] I hope so too, but I don’t know what the answer to that is.

Nicole: [00:35:38] I was going to say it’s going to take trust from both of us.

Ramit Sethi: [00:35:44] Let’s go back and forth one by one, toss the ball back to each other. Nicole went. Now Matt.

Matt: [00:35:49] Any reliable technique, any system that I can use because I feel like I’m floundering sometimes.

Ramit Sethi: [00:35:58] Matt, I overheard you in the screening video. You said that you love systems and techniques, I believe. Did that come from your acting background?

Matt: [00:36:06] Yeah. Before I went to grad school, I just flew by the seat of my pants. And then when I went to school, went to the Moscow Art Theater School, and I learned Russian techniques, and I learned the Meisner technique, makes you director proof. It makes you budget proof. You can do anything anywhere because you know how to do it step by step.

Ramit Sethi: [00:36:27] Okay. I love that. So you see the power of a system. I like that a lot. Makes my job easier. Do you have any systems that you currently use with your money?

Matt: [00:36:38] No.

Ramit Sethi: [00:36:40] Honest answer. So can you imagine what it would feel like to put in a couple of systems and they just work?

Matt: [00:36:47] I would love that.

Ramit Sethi: [00:36:48] Okay.

Nicole: [00:36:51] Maybe one of us has to give up some control.

Ramit Sethi: [00:36:56] Matt.

Matt: [00:37:05] Making sure we stick within budgets instead of saying, ah, fuck it.

Ramit Sethi: [00:37:09] Okay. What’s it going to take doing more of?

Nicole: [00:37:19] Putting more of what we’re doing on autopilot because it works.

Ramit Sethi: [00:37:24] Matt, what’s it going to take more of? What did Nicole just do that really moved you just a couple of minutes ago?

Matt: [00:37:36] She told me that she was proud of me.

Ramit Sethi: [00:37:39] What was she doing there?

Matt: [00:37:45] Expressing her gratitude.

Ramit Sethi: [00:37:50] Yeah. You think you could do more of that?

Matt: [00:37:54] Yeah. Yes, I do. 

Ramit Sethi: [00:37:56] I think that’ll be great. What’s it going to take doing less of in order for you to both update your views on money? Nicole.

Nicole: [00:38:10] For me, at least, I need to get out of the weeds and stop checking balances every day.

Ramit Sethi: [00:38:19] Yeah. By the way, when was the last time you logged into your account on your phone? How many hours ago?

Nicole: [00:38:25] Right before we got on the line.

Ramit Sethi: [00:38:29] How many hours? One.

Nicole: [00:38:31] One.

Ramit Sethi: [00:38:32] Okay. Very nice. So you have to stop playing in the weeds. That would be checking accounts every day and updating your spreadsheet all the time. Maybe not that.

Nicole: [00:38:44] Yes.

Ramit Sethi: [00:38:44] Can you imagine a future? Yeah.

Nicole: [00:38:46] I can. Yeah.

Ramit Sethi: [00:38:48] It’s called utopia. Matt, what would you have to do less of to update your view on money?

Matt: [00:38:52] Add to cart.

Ramit Sethi: [00:38:54] Oh, really? Just buying random impulsive stuff.

Matt: [00:38:57] Do less of emotional shopping.

Ramit Sethi: [00:39:00] Thank you. So when you’re feeling down for whatever reason, you’ll have to replace that behavior with something else. Cool. It works. All right. What are you noticing as we do this little exercise? Doing more, doing less, updating your view of the way you think, talk, and behave with money. What are you both noticing?

Nicole: [00:39:23] We can focus on behaviors. I can look at things that I’m doing right. I can look at things that I’m doing wrong or that I should be doing less of. It takes a lot of the heaviness out of it.

Matt: [00:39:40] Really what this does is peeling the onion, getting down to the core. The issue is emotion. The issue is emotional, addictive behavior, whether that’s shopping or whatever and an emotional need to control the money. And once those things are addressed, it’ll be easier for the other things to fall into place.

[Narration]

Ramit Sethi: [00:40:07] The addictive behavior is something that Matt should talk about with his therapist. But what you noticed me doing there is helping them rewrite their story, and doing it in a very, very specific way. Nicole admitted that she checked her accounts one hour ago. Matt talked about his specific behavior of impulsive buying.

Changing your behavior takes getting very, very specific and acknowledging what’s happening. That’s specific attitudes, specific behaviors, and then coming up with a plan for change. Cognitive behavioral therapy is really effective at this type of therapy. And change also involves some softer skills like gratitude and appreciating how far you’ve come.

[Interview]

Ramit Sethi: [00:40:45] Let’s take a look at the numbers, and then let’s talk about some techniques. How about that? You can start with assets, and then tell me the number next to it.

Matt: [00:40:55] 500,000.

Ramit Sethi: [00:40:57] All right. Next up, investments. Go ahead, Matt.

Matt: [00:41:02] $350,000, and that includes my 401K.

Nicole: [00:41:07] And my 401K.

Ramit Sethi: [00:41:10] Great. Okay. Both your 401Ks. Fantastic. Next up, savings.

Matt: [00:41:15] Savings, 20,000, and that includes probably 1,000 from me and 19,000 from Nicole.

Ramit Sethi: [00:41:24] All right. And debt.

Matt: [00:41:26] Debt, 450,000, and that includes $92,000 in student loans from me, and the rest is the mortgage and miscellaneous credit card debt.

Ramit Sethi: [00:41:39] How much credit card debt?

Matt: [00:41:41] We would have to look at the breakdown because I–

Ramit Sethi: [00:41:45] Ballpark.

Matt: [00:41:48] 10. 

Nicole: [00:41:49] No. From where?

Matt: [00:41:54] I mean, last month we had 10. When we wrote this, we had 10.

Nicole: [00:41:57] Oh, no, no. There’s no credit card debt. All the credit cards get paid monthly. So there might have been $10,000.

Ramit Sethi: [00:42:04] Hold on, hold on. Nicole. Nicole, hold on.

Nicole: [00:42:05] Sorry.

Ramit Sethi: [00:42:06] I want you to see this. Watch this, Nicole.

Nicole: [00:42:08] Yeah. Okay.

Ramit Sethi: [00:42:09] Matt, when you mentioned credit card debt, what does credit card debt mean to you?

Matt: [00:42:16] How much money you have to pay off on your credit card.

Ramit Sethi: [00:42:18] Okay. So if you guys spend $10,000 on your credit card one month, how much credit card debt do you have?

Matt: [00:42:27] I feel like this is a trap, but I’m going to say 10,000.

Ramit Sethi: [00:42:30] Okay. And if you pay it off in full, does that change your answer?

Matt: [00:42:35] Yeah.

Ramit Sethi: [00:42:36] How so?

Matt: [00:42:37] It goes back to zero.

Ramit Sethi: [00:42:39] Okay. So if you have $10,000 and you pay it off every month, do you have credit card debt?

Matt: [00:42:44] I guess not. No.

Ramit Sethi: [00:42:45] Okay. Nicole, what did you hear there?

Nicole: [00:42:50] That’s different understanding of–

Ramit Sethi: [00:42:56] It seems like you have a different understanding of money and financial systems than Matt does. Would that be fair to say for both of you? You agree?

Nicole: [00:43:04] Yeah.

Ramit Sethi: [00:43:05] Matt?

Matt: [00:43:06] Yeah.

Ramit Sethi: [00:43:06] Yeah, I think that’s fair. So, look, let’s just acknowledge that and then let’s build from the ground up.

Nicole: [00:43:14] You’re absolutely right. And I think part of the challenge is that sometimes when we talk through this stuff, and I try to explain it from that place, I get a lot of yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. I know. I know. I know. So then I don’t want to over explain if he’s telling me he understands.

Ramit Sethi: [00:43:37] Remember the questions was asking. What are you going to do more of? What are you going to need to do less of? Can you use that tool right here, right now?

Nicole: [00:43:46] Yes. So do more of meeting him where he’s at.

Ramit Sethi: [00:43:53] Great. And, Matt, what about for you?

Matt: [00:43:55] I could spend more time going through regular finance stuff so that I don’t get caught up on a question about what debt means.

Ramit Sethi: [00:44:06] Well, let’s take acting as an example. Let’s say I walk onto a set day one, they start rolling. I don’t know anything. And I’m like, Matt, I really want to get good at this. It’s important to me. Where should I start? And you’re going to give me some books, some classes, some videos, etc. And you’re basically going to say, learn the basic language of acting. And if I’m serious, I’m going to do it. And if I say anything other than, yes, I’m probably not serious. Fair?

Matt: [00:44:38] Yeah.

Ramit Sethi: [00:44:38] All right. That’s what I’m asking you. You got to learn the basic language of personal finance. It’s not that complicated. I’ll give you some specific thing you can do to learn it, but that way, Nicole is going to meet you where you are, and you’re going to rise up as well. The two of you are going to be able to build this together.

[Narration]

Ramit Sethi: [00:44:54] That was extremely important, and it happened so fast, it was almost imperceptible. Did you catch it? Matt has a totally different understanding of money compared to Nicole. She’s so far ahead that she doesn’t realize where Matt is starting from.

Imagine your friend invites you to go for a jog tomorrow, but you know that they run marathons for fun. And when you go out, they’re running two miles ahead of you, looking back, even if they’re being supportive, you’re still going to feel like you’re a burden to them. So we have to acknowledge where each person is and then work from there. There’s nothing wrong with not knowing about money.

Fine. I don’t know about a lot of stuff, but it’s really important to find out if Matt thinks it’s important to learn, which he does, and then to help him understand what he has to do to take ownership. And Nicole needs to recalibrate everything, including the way she talks about money.

[Interview]

Ramit Sethi: [00:45:44] All right. Let’s go back to the numbers. Your net worth is $420,000. What do you both think about that?

Nicole: [00:45:58] I think it’s too low.

Ramit Sethi: [00:46:00] Okay. Matt, what about you?

Matt: [00:46:02] I have no feelings about that.

Ramit Sethi: [00:46:04] Okay. Good answer. I don’t know. It’s a bunch of numbers. I have no idea if it’s good or bad. Whatever. It’s there. Let’s continue on here. Your gross monthly income is, Nicole?

Nicole: [00:46:19] Gross monthly income is 22,000.

Ramit Sethi: [00:46:22] That’s a lot of money.

Nicole: [00:46:23] It’s a lot of money.

Ramit Sethi: [00:46:25] You guys know how much you make together?

Nicole: [00:46:30] Yeah.

Ramit Sethi: [00:46:30] So I hope you can understand why I have such a low tolerance for people tracking the price of everything in a spreadsheet and arguing over this and that when they’re making 264,000 plus. Do you see my point?

Nicole: [00:46:48] Yeah.

Ramit Sethi: [00:46:49] And the idea that you want to be able to go to Japan and not worry about your money, Matt, has that strike you in light of this number?

Matt: [00:47:00] It’s silly.

Ramit Sethi: [00:47:00] Yeah, it’s silly. It’s almost like, gosh, is that all? That’s all we want to do? We’ve been playing so small. So I’m pleased to see this number. I actually think it can be a revelation as to what is possible for the two of you. Your investments are at 20%. Whoa. Okay. You dropped in your 401K here. That’s fine. That’s great. This is really good. 20%. Is this both of you? Who’s doing what?

Nicole: [00:47:31] That’s mine.

Ramit Sethi: [00:47:32] This is you, Nicole. Wait a minute. Matt, you’re only putting 300 bucks a month in? Why?

Matt: [00:47:39] I don’t have a good answer for you.

Ramit Sethi: [00:47:41] Okay, That’s honest. Nicole, why is he only putting 300 bucks a month in?

Nicole: [00:47:44] He was worried about if that was going to leave him enough money afterwards. So we started there.

Ramit Sethi: [00:47:49] That’s waiter Matt talking. This Matt makes $6,000 a month and takes home 4,000 and has a partner who makes 16,000 a month. So waiter Matt might be worried, but today’s Matt says, what, Matt?

Matt: [00:48:13] More money put in now into investments means the more money I will have later in life.

Ramit Sethi: [00:48:18] Bingo. And it’s huge. The compounding is huge. All right. I think you could probably afford to put a little bit more in here. And Nicole, honestly, you’re putting in a lot. So if you want to keep it up, I love it. I’m never going to tell anyone to stop investing, but I can see your need for control manifested here in this cell.

Nicole: [00:48:39] I also got started late, so I’m trying to max out and catch up because I didn’t really start saving for retirement until I was–

Ramit Sethi: [00:48:48] Until what age?

Nicole: [00:48:49] 32.

Ramit Sethi: [00:48:51] I’m so happy right now because there are so many people who are like throwing their phones into the ocean right now. They’re so pissed at you, Nicole. They’re like, this woman said she didn’t start till she was 32.

I love that you’re aggressive about investing. I don’t mind it, but this is simply yet another manifestation of this strict desire for control and almost a scarcity-based approach to your money.

Matt: [00:49:21] Yeah.

Ramit Sethi: [00:49:25] What’s going through your head, Matt?

Matt: [00:49:31] I don’t know if it’s just because I’m also a procrastinator, but I always feel like it’s not a good time to judge how I want things to be. I look at my finances right after my brother died, were really fucked up. And so I was saying to myself, well, it’s not really a good indicator of how my financial life is going to be with my new job because I was only six months in. I know those things take time to be able to look back. And I can use things like that. You have no idea. I can use it really well.

Ramit Sethi: [00:50:10] That’s old Matt. That’s waiter Matt, who was living in a very volatile situation. When you have a stable job with predictable income, there’s certain ways that I’m going to encourage you to stop thinking about, stop talking about. And now we’re going to adopt some new behaviors and ways of relating to our money.

Part of that is you actually know, Matt, pretty much how much you’re going to spend every month. You do? Yeah, you might have an extra dinner here or you might buy a little gadget over there. Fine. You can account for that. You can look back at three months, you can average it out. Hell, add 15% if you want. Be conservative.

But you can then put the money aside, and you can instruct your credit card by logging in, and you can say, every month, pay the balance in full. Can you imagine, Matt, that you will have enough money every month to pay off your credit card without even thinking about it?

Matt: [00:51:14] Yeah.

Ramit Sethi: [00:51:15] Great. Is there anything stopping you from making that change?

Matt: [00:51:26] I don’t think so, except stubbornness.

Ramit Sethi: [00:51:33] I can fix that right now. Let’s just do it. You want to log in to your credit card right now?

Matt: [00:51:39] No.

Ramit Sethi: [00:51:40] I know, but we’re going to do it anyway. Do it. What is it? Which credit card? Tell us, by the way, so we can judge as you log in.

Matt: [00:51:46] Okay, great. It’s a Chase.

Ramit Sethi: [00:51:52] Sapphire?

Matt: [00:51:54] Yeah.

Ramit Sethi: [00:51:56] Yeah, that’s what I thought. All right, go ahead. Log in. Nicole, do you have any payments that you make manually every single month?

Nicole: [00:52:05] Yeah.

Ramit Sethi: [00:52:06] Like what? All of them? Oh, God.

Nicole: [00:52:08]  No, no, no. It’s just the credit cards.

Ramit Sethi: [00:52:11] Oh, okay.

Nicole: [00:52:11] Everything else is automated.

Ramit Sethi: [00:52:12] Wow. But you love the control, like, Matt. The irony is people think they want more control in their money, but the more control they have– it’s like someone– what do they say? A stopped pot– whatever.

Nicole: [00:52:24] Don’t watch the pot.

Ramit Sethi: [00:52:26] Yes, A watched pot. it’s like, leave that fucking thing alone. It’s cooking.

Ramit Sethi: [00:52:30] That’s what we want for your investments. Stop fiddling. Nicole, can you log in to your credit card account, please?

Nicole: [00:52:36] Yes. Okay. Do you want me to show it? Yeah.

Ramit Sethi: [00:52:39] Can you? 

Nicole: [00:52:40] Okay. Yeah.

Ramit Sethi: [00:52:41] Do it. Yeah, let’s do it. Oh. Hold on. Let me allow you to share.

[Narration]

Ramit Sethi: [00:52:46] If you’re listening on audio, come watch this happen on YouTube.

[Interview]

Nicole: [00:52:50] Okay.

Ramit Sethi: [00:52:51] Okay. Oh, my God. This is gold. All right. Let me just observe what I see here on screen. Hold on. We have a $7,000 balance on one credit card, $1,100 on another.

Nicole: [00:53:05] That’s my personal.

Ramit Sethi: [00:53:06] Okay. And 2,000 on something else. Okay. All right. Okay, go ahead. Make the automation.

Nicole: [00:53:15] Okay. So I have to do it separately on all of them?

Ramit Sethi: [00:53:19] I don’t know. I haven’t done this in 10 years. I fucking set this up when I was an infant. I was like, I’m never logging into this account again. I love it. Oh, my God. This is a true joy for me. I’m seeing automation. Yes. Set up automatic payments. Yes.

Nicole: [00:53:44] This is freaking me out a lot.

Ramit Sethi: [00:53:47] Fuck. It’s done.

Nicole: [00:53:48] It’s done. Great.

Ramit Sethi: [00:53:52] Okay. Amazing. First of all, can we get a round of applause? This is the first live automation change we’ve ever seen on this show. Show gets better and better every time. I can’t believe it. This is the pinnacle. Forget Netflix. Forget it. This is real drama here. First of all, you set up autopay, Nicole. Matt, you set up autopay, right?

Matt: [00:54:13] Mm-hmm.

Ramit Sethi: [00:54:13] What does it mean for your day-to-day life that you just automated your credit cards? What do you get for the work that you just did?

Matt: [00:54:23] I think that it will keep me much more honest with myself because that fucking money’s coming out.

Ramit Sethi: [00:54:33] One way or another.

Matt: [00:54:34] So I just have to make sure that the pipeline is filled. I’ve got to make sure that I’ve got the funds available for whatever I want to spend instead of saying I’ll figure it out later.

Ramit Sethi: [00:54:46] That is true. But remember, you get paid a stable amount every month. It’s not like you’re out hustling for gigs anymore. If you do that, great. But that’s extra. So it’s less about your pipeline. That’s old Matt talking. What is it instead?

Matt: [00:55:01] Freedom.

Nicole: [00:55:02] So I’m shoveling money into this retirement account, just hoping, not blindly. I have a number in mind that it’s going to be enough. But everywhere you look, it’s different.

Ramit Sethi: [00:55:18] Yeah. Here. Let’s do it right now.

Nicole: [00:55:20] Every year? Sure.

Ramit Sethi: [00:55:21] All right, let’s look. So how much do you have right now invested?

Nicole: [00:55:29] 350.

Ramit Sethi: [00:55:30] All right. And how much are you putting in every year?

Nicole: [00:55:35] Say 35,000.

Ramit Sethi: [00:55:38] Okay. Years to grow would be, what, 24?

Nicole: [00:55:42] I mean, I’d rather it was less, but sure.

Ramit Sethi: [00:55:46] All right. 20. How about that?

Nicole: [00:55:47] Okay.

Ramit Sethi: [00:55:48] All right. Interest rate, seven. All right. $2.8 million. How does that feel?

Nicole: [00:55:55] It feels like not enough.

Ramit Sethi: [00:55:58] All right. Well, I bet you Matt’s income is going to go up.

Nicole: [00:56:02] Oh, yeah.

Ramit Sethi: [00:56:03] Which means he’s going to be investing and contributing more, which means you could potentially contribute more. So I want to be conservative here, Nicole. I want to say over the next 20 years, you can average out, what, 40,000 a year? 45,000? What do you think?

Nicole: [00:56:18] I think 45,000 is safe.

Ramit Sethi: [00:56:20] Love it. All right. Boom. 3.3 million. Pretty good. What do you think?

Nicole: [00:56:27] That looks pretty good.

Ramit Sethi: [00:56:28] All right. So you’re going to have $3 million. Your housing expense is going to be essentially gone. You’re not going to be buying– probably, you won’t have a car payment. You both seem quite reasonable. That’s a lot of money every month. That’s thousands that you are just like, what do I do with this money? Let’s go. Let’s get sushi. Let’s travel. Whatever. For example, let me show you something. At 65 years old, that’s $4.9 million. Did you just see what happened?

Nicole: [00:57:02] That’s a lot of money.

Ramit Sethi: [00:57:02] That shit went crazy. We got to do that again because it’s too dramatic. The punch line here is ridiculous. Okay. this is you at, what, 61?

Nicole: [00:57:12] Mm-hmm.

Ramit Sethi: [00:57:12] How about we just wait literally five years? 66. Do nothing. You sit there. $4.9 million. Let’s just go up by two years now just for kicks. What’s going to happen? 4.9. 5.7. This shit is fast now. This is compounding. It all happens on the back end. You can’t spend that money fast enough. Do you know how to spend $600,000 a year with no housing expense? Exactly. But you got to– 

Nicole: [00:57:43] I’ll figure it out, though.

Ramit Sethi: [00:57:44] I bet you will figure it out. 

Matt: [00:57:45] Yeah, we’ll figure it out.

Ramit Sethi: [00:57:45] I bet you both will. You got to get there first.

[Narration]

Ramit Sethi: [00:57:48] Gosh, I really loved talking to Nicole and Matt. I loved the support that they showed each other. I love that Matt in particular took us through his journey, which was painful, and fraught, and also successful. Every emotion possible, he’s gone through it. He took us through that journey with him. And for that, I’m very grateful. Unfortunately, I never received follow ups.

It takes a lot to come on and show your numbers, and the questions I ask are challenging, and I understand that that can be uncomfortable. So I am hoping for the very best for the two of them. And although I’m disappointed I did not hear back from them, I do understand, and I still wish you both the best.