Episode #110: “My boyfriend doesn’t care about money. Will I ever feel secure?”

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Hannah: [00:00:00] I feel guilty because I feel like your dad has talked to me more about money and you growing up than maybe you. I don’t want to have to think about money so much, especially in conversation with you. I want it to be more of a partnership.

Jake: [00:00:16] I don’t really care about numbers growing on a computer. I do think about what retirement would be like and stuff, but it’s not my goal.

Ramit Sethi: [00:00:24] You’re not really motivated by money. Would that be fair?

Jake: [00:00:28] Yes, I chose a career that doesn’t make a lot of money. I work as a backcountry ski guide.

Ramit Sethi: [00:00:34] In the winter. And then in summer, what do you do?

Jake: [00:00:36] I work as a beer delivery driver.

Hannah: [00:00:39] Okay. I don’t think my relationship with money right now that I can ever feel fully safe.

Jake: [00:00:43] Yeah, I definitely want that to change. I think we want the same thing. I just don’t know how to get there. It sucks. 

[Narration]

Ramit Sethi: [00:00:52] Hannah’s 31, and Jake is 26, and they see money differently. Hannah wants safety. She wants security. She wants to stop worrying about money. He does not care about it. If you and your partner see money differently, I think this is going to be a fascinating episode for you. And there’s one thing I want to highlight before we get into today’s episode.  

Listen to Hannah and Jake talk about minor decisions. Even with something as small as choosing which grocery store to go to, they spin in circles, totally indecisive. And this is a really common pattern that I’ve seen among couples that isn’t talked about a lot. And it turns out that their indecision ends up playing a central role in their money relationship. All right. Let’s get into it. 

[Interview]

Hannah: [00:01:41] So when we were talking about rent and him discovering how much I’m going to be making in the next five months and me taking on more rent, I think he was unsure and unwilling to let me pay more. The conversation didn’t go beyond me just saying, yes, this is what we’re going to do.

Jake: [00:02:06] I think I said, wow, you’re going to make, what was it, $10,000 a month? I was like, that’s a lot of money. I don’t make anywhere near that, and I don’t know when.

Ramit Sethi: [00:02:18] Go ahead and have the conversation, Hannah. Just talk to him like you said it to him the other day.

Hannah: [00:02:24] I’ve been telling you this for a long time, the whole last year and me through grad school, that that’s probably what I’m going to be making, and I’m probably going to be paying for more in the long run just because I am making more money than you. 

[Narration]

Ramit Sethi: [00:02:42] I just want to cut in here. Did you notice how Hannah began that conversation? Let me play it back. 

[Interview]

Hannah: [00:02:48] I’ve been telling you this for a long time, the whole last year and me through grad school, that that’s probably what I’m going to be making. 

[Narration]

Ramit Sethi: [00:02:58] All right. You’ll probably notice that I never ever start a conversation that way on this podcast. And you may also notice that it wasn’t really a conversation. It was Hannah telling Jake something, and then it just landing with a thud. He had to figure out how to respond. If you have been having conversations with your partner about money that seemed to go nowhere, or it feels like you’re just spinning your wheels, sometimes it helps to break your conversations down to their atomic levels.  

Here’s a weird idea. Ask your partner if they’re cool with recording the conversation the next time you talk about money, and then get a transcript. Look at how you talk to each other. I guarantee that your minds will be blown. Okay, back to the conversation. Notice how Jake responds to Hannah’s declaration.  

[Interview]

Jake: [00:03:49] Yeah. That sounds fair to me, but just a disproportionate rent and other bills makes me uneasy. Yeah. I don’t know if we need to do that. It sounds like that’s more work, honestly. I want it to be as easy as possible. I mean, that’s definitely my goal. I want the paying the bills and splitting stuff to be as easy. I just think this is the easiest way.

Ramit Sethi: [00:04:17] What is this? This means what?

Jake: [00:04:20] So for basically all of our bills and for all of our grocery shopping and stuff, we just split it, I guess manually. So one of us will pay the bill, like the Wi-Fi bill came, it gets taken out of my account automatically. I Venmo Hannah for half of it. When we go to the grocery store, I’ll split up the receipt and Venmo request for that part of it. Okay. That seems easier to me than other methods. Yeah.

Hannah: [00:04:50] Okay. Well, I don’t want to keep Venmo-ing, and I don’t want to have to think about money so much, especially in conversation with you. I want it to be more of a partnership.

Ramit Sethi: [00:05:05] What do you think the problem is? Is this a problem of Venmo and tools? Because I’m still trying to understand what are the stakes here? Jake, if I had to ask you in a sentence or two, what’s going on with money in your relationship? What would you say to me?

Jake: [00:05:23] I think Hannah wants more money than I think I need. And I guess I don’t have the aspirations to make that much money. More than I make now, but not that much.

Ramit Sethi: [00:05:37] I see. That’s honest. Hannah, would you agree with that? Is that the primary thing? What’s going on?

Hannah: [00:05:44] Yeah, that’s the primary thing. I don’t think you even want to make more than you’re making now.

Jake: [00:05:51] This is a day-to-day conversation, I guess. It’s something we talk about so  frequently.

Ramit Sethi: [00:05:55] Is that related to Hannah’s desire to make more money and your lack of desire to?

Jake: [00:06:02] Yeah, because if we do start having joint accounts and putting an income proportionally, the further apart our incomes get, the stranger that gets. If I’m putting in such a smaller proportion than she is into account, and we’re  spending money on somewhat separate things, to me, that doesn’t seem fair to Hannah.

Ramit Sethi: [00:06:30] Why?

Jake: [00:06:32] Because she’s paying more for stuff.

Ramit Sethi: [00:06:34] And so your conclusion is to what? Keep things separate and split things 50/50?

Jake: [00:06:45] Yeah.

Ramit Sethi: [00:06:45] Okay. Does that work?

Jake: [00:06:49] I think so. I don’t think Hannah does.

Ramit Sethi: [00:06:52] So you go to grocery store and let’s say, I don’t know, it costs 100 bucks. You both split it 50/50. Is that how you do it?

Jake: [00:07:01] No. So we’ll go through the receipt, and I’ll add up the items individually. So let’s say she paid for it. I’ll add up the things that I spent money on and the things that we’re sharing. And then I’ll pay her that, because we need different things and stuff.

Ramit Sethi: [00:07:23] You like doing this?

Jake: [00:07:26] I don’t like it, but it doesn’t take that much time. I mean, really, that’s less than five minutes every time we go to the grocery store. It’s not ideal, but I think it’s easier than other things.

Ramit Sethi: [00:07:38] Other things would be what?

Jake: [00:07:42] Contributing to a checking account, and then proportionately adding money in, and then proportionately spending the money. That seems more of a headache.

Ramit Sethi: [00:07:54] And right now, on a scale of 1 to 10, how would you describe the way that you’ve got your money set up? One is easy, 10 is hard. Where would you say it is?

Jake: [00:08:05] Three.

Ramit Sethi: [00:08:06] Three. Really easy.

Jake: [00:08:08] I think it’s pretty easy.

Ramit Sethi: [00:08:09] What is easy mean to you?

Jake: [00:08:13] Automatic. Doesn’t take a lot of stress or time. 

[Narration]

Ramit Sethi: [00:08:17] What? What is this? This idea that it doesn’t take a long time. Yes, it does. It costs a lot. Not only does it cost you your own time focusing on three-dollar questions to sit there and decide who bought the head of lettuce, it costs you because you’re not bonding with your partner over money. In fact, it feels horrible every single month. This is an example of focusing on three-dollar questions, and Jake wants to do this, going line by line on every receipt for the rest of their lives. That’s not the life for me. 

[Interview]

Ramit Sethi: [00:08:52] What would be an ideal scenario for you?

Hannah: [00:08:57] Him being comfortable with me making more money, but also having self-efficacy to do his best, to do more than just make the bare minimum to pay his bills if he was single. I feel like I’ve never admitted that.

Ramit Sethi: [00:09:15] What is it that you want from Jake? Feel free to be as honest as you want, and feel free to take as much time as you need. Jake is listening.

Hannah: [00:09:24] Ooh, I wish that I could trust you to provide for me in some way if my business fell through.

Jake: [00:09:37] Okay. I would like that too.

Ramit Sethi: [00:09:45] Go ahead. Keep talking about it. I think we’re really on to something here.

Hannah: [00:09:49] I think right now you couldn’t. Being a seasonal worker, you don’t necessarily have your own room throughout the year that’s just yours, or you don’t know where your next paycheck is coming from April to the summer.

Jake: [00:10:10] I hear that.

Ramit Sethi: [00:10:12] Jake, do you care about making more money?

Jake: [00:10:16] Not really. Not that much. To live my rich life would require a little bit more money, but not that much more money. I don’t really care about numbers growing on a computer. I do think about what retirement would be like and stuff, but it’s not my goal. I chose a career that doesn’t make a lot of money.

Ramit Sethi: [00:10:41] What do you do for a living?

Jake: [00:10:42] I care more about that. I work as a backcountry ski guide in the summer.

Ramit Sethi: [00:10:47] Okay, cool.

Jake: [00:10:48] In the winter. Sorry.

Ramit Sethi: [00:10:49] In the winter. And then in summer, what do you do?

Jake: [00:10:52] I work as a beer delivery driver. But I’m getting into the climbing guiding too. Rock climbing guiding.

Ramit Sethi: [00:11:00] What is your rich life if you could define it for us?

Jake: [00:11:06] I want to live in the mountains where I can have access to them every day. The part that I don’t have now is I would like to be able to take trips on– not extravagant trips, but trips with flexibility. With short notice, I want to go here with Hannah or with a friend. That’s the one thing I’d like to add to my life.

Ramit Sethi: [00:11:28] You’re not really motivated by money. Would that be fair?

Jake: [00:11:32] Yes, that is fair. I think I can get experiences without just money.

Ramit Sethi: [00:11:38] Got it. Cool. I’d like that. And Hannah?

Hannah: [00:11:42] Being able to retire in my 60s and maybe having a secure base that would be maybe a piece of land or a house somewhere.

Ramit Sethi: [00:11:53] How long have you two been together?

Hannah: [00:11:54] Three years.

Ramit Sethi: [00:11:56] Are you into the mountains as much as Jake?

Hannah: [00:12:00] I think I am. I like living in the mountains, but I definitely don’t want to be backcountry skiing every day.

Ramit Sethi: [00:12:08] Okay. Got it. So you’re 31. And what do you do for a living?

Hannah: [00:12:13] I’m a mental health therapist. I felt guilty that I’m probably going to be making a lot more than him.

Ramit Sethi: [00:12:23] Why do you feel guilty?

Hannah: [00:12:26] I don’t know. It’s just a lot more. I feel guilty that I’m making so much more than him and he contributes 50% of everything.

Ramit Sethi: [00:12:34] Ah. Who decided that?

Hannah: [00:12:39] He did.

Ramit Sethi: [00:12:41] It’s so weird. It is always the case. The lower earner insists on doing 50/50 almost always, even to their own detriment. It’s got to be stressful, Jake.

Jake: [00:12:56] I don’t know. Making it work. It seems fair. We’ve used the same amount of power. We use the same amount of Wi-Fi, and we both use the house equally, the apartment equally. Why should I just pay less because I happen to make less?

Ramit Sethi: [00:13:13] Well, you pay less taxes than I pay.

Jake: [00:13:15] True.

Hannah: [00:13:16] Oh, that’s good.

Jake: [00:13:17] Okay. Yeah.

Ramit Sethi: [00:13:20] And to tell you the truth, I can afford it. In fact, a guy like me should pay more and be able to provide for the roads, and the emergency services, and all the beautiful trees, and all of that stuff. In your relationship, she makes more, sure she consumes 50/50 of the Wi-Fi, but she also has the capability to pay more. And in a relationship, to me, it makes a lot of sense. What do you think about that?

Jake: [00:13:51] Yeah, that makes sense. 

[Narration]

Ramit Sethi: [00:13:53] That felt a little too easy. I’m not sure. I just changed Jake’s entire perspective about proportional payments in 30 seconds. But I do want to point out that sometimes a single good example can change everything. And sometimes having a third party make that example can be really powerful.  

Here’s what I’ve noticed so far. Hannah cares about money because she wants security. She’s expecting to make a lot more soon, and she feels guilty about it. She’s concerned about Jake’s relationship with money, but she’s rarely direct with him. Jake doesn’t care about money in the same way as Hannah. He acknowledges that he chose a low paying career. And interestingly, he insists on paying 50/50, likely as a way to contribute because the lower earner in relationships is almost always preoccupied with the C word, contribution. But of course, contributing 50/50 to the price of peanut butter isn’t really what their disagreement is about.  

If you struggle to connect with your partner on money, make sure that you are signed up for my Saturday newsletter. This Saturday, I’m going to be sharing seven money questions that you and your partner can ask each other to help make sure you’re having healthy money conversations and to start actually feeling like you have a true partnership around money. Sign up at iwt.com/podcastnewsletter, and that newsletter is free.  

Now, I asked Jake about something he said in his screening interview because I want to understand how he views money. 

 [Interview]

Ramit Sethi: [00:15:25] Jake, what’s his thing about you not liking rich people? Is that true?

Jake: [00:15:29] Yeah. Not all of them.

Ramit Sethi: [00:15:32] I don’t like a lot of them either. And I’m rich.

Jake: [00:15:35] I know. You seem chill for a rich guy, but I don’t know. I think often people lose their important values for money or with money, and then also I don’t like the idea of how 1% of the world owns everything and there’s so many people suffering because of it. Not that I’m suffering.

Ramit Sethi: [00:15:55] Yeah, I agree with you, man. I’m totally with you. 100%. It’s unfathomable the disparity in wealth. Okay. I got questions for you. So you have this feeling about rich people. I’m not offended. I love the honesty. Where do you meet these rich people? Is this when you’re doing the ski guiding?

Jake: [00:16:15] I have had some clients that are absolutely filthy rich, and I see people have values that I don’t think are– lack of values, I guess.

Ramit Sethi: [00:16:28] What would be an example of the values you don’t agree with?

Jake: [00:16:31] I see a correlation with how wealthier people are doing these activities more to go home and tell their coworkers, or to post it on Instagram, or to check a box. Just suffering through the day and having no fun and not talking to his group members and me and not getting the most out of the experience. He’s just there to take the picture and go home. And it’s not fun for anybody.

Ramit Sethi: [00:17:00] Okay. Got it.

Jake: [00:17:00] And I see that less wealthy people are really just there for the experience, which I think is the way it should be.

Ramit Sethi: [00:17:07] And do you find that this is true of all the wealthy people that you work with?

Jake: [00:17:12] No, I wouldn’t say all.

Ramit Sethi: [00:17:13] How do you think that this feeling you have about wealth and wealthy people, etc, how do you think it affects your relationship with Hannah and money?

Jake: [00:17:25] I think Hannah wants both of us to be wealthy together.

Ramit Sethi: [00:17:29] Okay. And what do you feel about that?

Jake: [00:17:32] I don’t necessarily want exorbitant wealth. And I think that is maybe our biggest issue and maybe why we’re here.

Hannah: [00:17:47] Yeah, I would agree with that. 

[Narration]

Ramit Sethi: [00:17:49] If you hate money or you think that rich people are vapid or evil, it’s very unlikely that you will live a rich life yourself. That’s because the very process of earning money, saving and investing, designing a rich life will not get you where you want. That destination of rich will be antithetical to the identity you’ve created for yourself.  

This is why I talk openly about my rich life, and yours. I want you to see that a rich life doesn’t have to mean simply posting about your glamorous ski trip on Instagram, although honestly, I don’t see a problem with that. Your rich life is yours. Next, I wanted to hear from Hannah specifically about how she was raised. 

[Interview]

Hannah: [00:18:32] I’m already getting teary. I was raised by a single mom, and so I was always the one that was, I guess, probably more mature about money and finances than my mom.

Ramit Sethi: [00:18:48] She wasn’t good with money?

Hannah: [00:18:50] No, she was not good with money. Yeah, probably 8 or 9 is when my parents got divorced, so probably just right around there. Some of my earlier memories are talking about money with her. We were completely dependent on my grandfather. He paid for everything in my life.  

Or it was talking about child support, and we don’t have enough money, or there’s $5 in the bank account right now after I paid rent, that kind of thing. So it was me trying to just be smaller so that she wouldn’t be stressed about money. And I see that happening with us where it’s like I just won’t talk about it because I don’t want to make him stressed about money.

Ramit Sethi: [00:19:37] And what about now, looking back on that, that 8, 9, 10-year old? What do you think?

Hannah: [00:19:44] I wish I could tell her that you don’t have to be so hyper vigilant, but it’s just hard to– I would have to explain listening to your mom call credit card companies is not something that other kids have to deal with. Yeah. I wish I could tell her that it wasn’t normal what was going through.

Ramit Sethi: [00:20:11] I’m sorry you had to go through that at such a young age too.

Hannah: [00:20:15] Thank you.

Ramit Sethi: [00:20:17] You still have that relationship with your mom?

Hannah: [00:20:20] We don’t have a relationship because it just got to the point where I just couldn’t handle her mismanagement of things.

Ramit Sethi: [00:20:28] So you mentioned that you were 8, 9, you were starting to take over some of the family responsibilities with the money. You were starting to also shrink yourself. Is that right?

Hannah: [00:20:39] Yeah.

Ramit Sethi: [00:20:40] Okay. What happened between 10 and 18?

Hannah: [00:20:45] Things just got worse. She didn’t really work that much. She would get a big check for Christmas from a family member, and we’d just do our best to live off that for the rest of the year.

Ramit Sethi: [00:20:57] Did you grow up thinking it was normal to get one check and then make it last for a year?

Hannah: [00:21:05] Yeah. I grew up thinking that you have to ask other people for money, and you have to do what they tell you, essentially. If we ran out of money, my dad and my grandpa were the people that she asked. And so it was very much like, grandpa wants us to do this. Grandpa wants us to live here. Grandpa wants us to– and same with my dad. It’s like, you need to be this way, and I’ll buy you a car.

Ramit Sethi: [00:21:39] Wow. How would you describe that if you had to put a word or words to that scenario?

Hannah: [00:21:45] I was always scared for what was going to happen next. Yeah, I had no control over my life.

Ramit Sethi: [00:21:55] You still feel that way today?

Hannah: [00:21:58] Yeah, I do.

Ramit Sethi: [00:22:01] In what ways?

Hannah: [00:22:03] It’s probably not in the front of my brain, but deep down, I’m always waiting for the other shoe to drop. And so being the one that makes more money in my relationship does not feel like a comfortable role. I’m used to someone else having a lot of money and then giving it when they felt like they wanted to.

Ramit Sethi: [00:22:26] Would you want that to be the case in your relationship?

Hannah: [00:22:30] No, I don’t want that to be the case. But I also saw a lot of enabling of my mom. If she didn’t come from a wealthy family, we wouldn’t have had anything. And I can’t imagine her holding a job. I don’t know what my life would have been like. And so I don’t want to enable him in not giving him the space to grow who he wants to be career-wise. And so just giving him money or making– he doesn’t ask, but making his life easier. I don’t know if that’s the best thing to do either.

Ramit Sethi: [00:23:06] So you’re here because you want to help him?

Hannah: [00:23:10] I’m here because I’m deathly scared to combine our lives. I’ve been doing well on my own, and to start combining my life more and more with him, I’m scared to release and relinquish control. He is always stressed about money, so there’s something that isn’t working. Talking about money or if there’s some unforeseen circumstance, he’s stressed. So that’s what I see. Any conversations we had early on about finances were my ideas about the future and what I wanted for my future. And then him, I can’t remember what he would have told me.

Jake: [00:23:56] When we started dating, Hannah was just starting grad school, and I think she was pretty psyched on her upcoming career and how much money she was going to make.

Ramit Sethi: [00:24:07] Mm-hmm. Why were you excited about the income you were going to make?

Hannah: [00:24:12] Previous to that, I was a flight attendant, and while I got to travel and leave at a moment’s notice, there wasn’t a lot of freedom in it. I was excited that that was something that I was going to have all while helping people. Money-wise, I was excited that I was going to be increasing my income significantly.

Ramit Sethi: [00:24:34] Why? What does it mean to you?

Hannah: [00:24:36] It means that I can relax, that I don’t have to be on all the time.

Ramit Sethi: [00:24:44] Are you relaxed right now?

Hannah: [00:24:46] Not. I’m not relaxed now, but I’m in the last squeeze before getting my license. The last hard part before getting my license.

Ramit Sethi: [00:24:59] That happens in a couple of months?

Hannah: [00:25:01] Yeah, three and a half months.

Ramit Sethi: [00:25:03] And then are you going to be relaxed?

Hannah: [00:25:06] That’s what I’m wondering, and I’m worried I’m not going to be. I feel like I would take more on because I’d want to expand more, and I’d want more income.

Ramit Sethi: [00:25:20] Oh, okay. Because you want more income.

Hannah: [00:25:22] Yeah, because I want more income and because I feel like if things were to fall apart, I would want more money to just be able to be unemployed for a little bit. Yeah.

Ramit Sethi: [00:25:38] Because when will the other shoe drop?

Hannah: [00:25:41] Yeah.

Ramit Sethi: [00:25:42] Does that remind you of anything?

Hannah: [00:25:45] My childhood.

Ramit Sethi: [00:25:46] Yeah. Do you think there’s a connection?

Hannah: [00:25:50] Yeah, I think there’s a connection. I don’t think my relationship with money right now that I can ever feel fully safe. There’s not more to do, I guess.

Ramit Sethi: [00:26:00] Where do you get to stop worrying about money?

Hannah: [00:26:04] I don’t know. I think when I realize that I can go on a trip and not have to plan it around, when it’s best for my business, or when it’s best for my employer, or when I’m able to go on a trip and go where I want to go, not based on how much I can spend. That’s what I have in my head, I guess.

Ramit Sethi: [00:26:35] That’s a good answer. I like that last part. That’s what I have in my head. Sometimes what we have in our head is right, and sometimes it’s totally shockingly wrong. How do you think Jake fits into this?

Hannah: [00:26:50] While I think that Jake probably has to be a little bit on edge around me, I would love to be able to live with Jake, and I would love to be able to like go with him where he travels. And so ideally, we’re able to live closer together throughout the year.

Ramit Sethi: [00:27:08] Jake, what do you think? Hearing everything that Hannah just said, are you surprised at all?

Jake: [00:27:16] Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, I understand her background and why money’s tough mentally, and why I don’t help that at all. I understand that, and I just don’t know how to move forward or how to be a better support. I guess that’s what I want. I would like to support Hannah better and give her that backbone or something. Someone she can rely on.

Ramit Sethi: [00:27:45] I’m asking a few questions here. It’s your life. Are you interested? Because you told me before you don’t really care about making more money.

Jake: [00:27:56] No, I am interested in that. I’m just at a place where it’s not necessarily an option. I’m early in my career, and I don’t have a lot of flexibility in the long term. It might take several years. The one thing is the money, that I don’t know where that’s going to come from.

Ramit Sethi: [00:28:14] Isn’t that the one thing that Hannah wants?

Hannah: [00:28:18] Because he is so young, or he’s 26, and I’m 31, I guess I could just see it going on for the rest of our lives. This is the number he’s at, and I don’t see him actually being okay with the number that he has.

Ramit Sethi: [00:28:36] What do you mean? He said he’s okay with it.

Hannah: [00:28:39] Okay. I don’t see that on a day-to-day basis.

Ramit Sethi: [00:28:43] Okay. We got to get to this. Jake, you’re stressed about money, I’m told by Hannah, but you don’t seem stressed at all to me. So are you stressed about money?

Jake: [00:28:51] Well, guess you caught me at a good moment in time where I’m not stressed about money. But I am. I didn’t say I have enough money right now, but I don’t need to make $1,000 a month. The numbers are low. I’m not necessarily in the red, but yeah.

Ramit Sethi: [00:29:07] I mean, Hannah, he’s telling you straight up, this is who I am. He’s being very honest. I work in this industry. This is the deal. I’m getting my training. This is the money I make. It might turn into something else. I’m taking steps, and my schedule is unpredictable during certain seasons. He’s telling you straight up.

Hannah: [00:29:27] Yeah. I feel like since November up until now, I’m okay with that. I’m okay with what his schedule allows, but it feels like, financially and dates-wise, I don’t know what I could plan for us. 

 [Narration]

Ramit Sethi: [00:29:48] There’s a lot of dancing around what might really just be a basic financial incompatibility or a difference in life stages. Let’s start with the possibility of life stages or seasons. Jake is young, he’s early in his career, and this is one of many reasons that I don’t focus on very young people to teach personal finance to. Why? 
Because many of them simply do not care. I’m not saying anyone is a bad person, but there are seasons of life where you care about certain things. And me sitting here shaking people and saying, look at this compound interest chart. You’re 21 years old, frankly, is not going to make many 21-year olds care about money. Think about it. Would it make sense to sit here and teach a class on how to rock a baby to a 21-year old single person? Probably not. So maybe Jake just doesn’t care right now. Do I wish he cared about money? Of course. But I can’t make someone care, and neither can Hannah.  

There is another darker possibility that this is just a basic incompatibility on a very important value. Notice that Hannah doesn’t even want to touch that because the implication is so severe. Instead, what does she say? She says, “I’m okay with whatever his schedule allows, but it feels like I don’t know what I could plan for us.” What do you think is going on here? What advice would you give to them? I’m curious. Leave your thoughts in the comments on YouTube and Instagram, and I will read all of those comments. Let’s continue. 

[Interview]

Ramit Sethi: [00:31:22] Did you grow up middle class or lower middle class?

Jake: [00:31:28] Probably middle. I grew up in Seattle. My mother was an acupuncturist. She died when I was 14. And my dad, he’s worked for various nonprofits.

Ramit Sethi: [00:31:41] Got it. Sorry to hear about your mom.

Jake: [00:31:44] Thanks.

Jake: [00:31:45] You grew up in what, a house, an apartment? What are we talking about?

Jake: [00:31:49] Yeah. A three-bedroom house in a pretty decent neighborhood.

Ramit Sethi: [00:31:54] What’d your dad teach you about money, and your mom also?

Jake: [00:31:59] I think they both taught me to spend money when you need to. If you need something like education, or clothes, or gear for your job, then you should make that happen. You should spend that money.

Ramit Sethi: [00:32:15] Were they both into the outdoors like you?

Jake: [00:32:18] Yeah.

Ramit Sethi: [00:32:19] Cool. Seattle’s a good place for– 

Jake: [00:32:21] They didn’t make careers out of it, but yeah.

Ramit Sethi: [00:32:23] Okay, cool. What else did they teach you about money?

Jake: [00:32:26] Saving was important, to have some money just in case. And then also, they taught me to be charitable with my money, which I don’t necessarily practice these days.

Ramit Sethi: [00:32:38] Okay. They sound like great parents. Great lessons too.

Jake: [00:32:43] I think so.

Ramit Sethi: [00:32:45] Yeah. You have pretty positive memories of your childhood?

Jake: [00:32:47] Absolutely. Yeah.

Ramit Sethi: [00:32:49] Hannah, any of that surprise you, hearing that?

Hannah: [00:32:51] No, it doesn’t surprise me. I feel guilty. Not guilty. I feel weird because I feel like your dad has talked to me more about money and you growing up than maybe you. He told me recently that he was always wishing that, not always, but at a certain point in time, he was wishing that his mom would work just a little bit more, see more people, and just make a little bit more money. And in hearing that, I was like, oh, no, do we have a similar dynamic to what his mom and dad had?

Jake: [00:33:33] I never thought about that. I guess it’s possible. Yeah. And I guess my mom was pretty stressed about money a lot. And I think that was a big item of discussion.

Ramit Sethi: [00:33:46] What do you remember about your mom being stressed, if you’re comfortable sharing?

Jake: [00:33:51] Yeah. I think they argued about money. What to spend it on. I mean, my dad was the same way. They were both pretty frugal about some things, but maybe arguing about which grocery store to go to and whether a certain item can be afforded or something like that. Yeah.

Ramit Sethi: [00:34:11] Arguments about groceries are usually never about groceries. They’re usually about something way deeper. It’s hard as an adult talking about your parents, but there’s some clues here. Okay. Hannah, you’re realizing that you may be replicating the dynamic that you heard Jake’s dad talk about. You got a big smile on your face right now. What’s going through your head?

Hannah: [00:34:37] Because I’m now remembering that early on in our relationship, we fought about which grocery store to go to.

Ramit Sethi: [00:34:45] Fuck. What? 

Hannah: [00:34:46] Not fought, but it would be–

Ramit Sethi: [00:34:48] Hold on. What were the options? Lay out the two grocery stores for us. Which were they?

Hannah: [00:34:52] So the Co-op, which is the organic, and then there’s the cheaper store. It’s a mix of organic and not organic. And I always shopped at the Co-op, and he did not like that. I would have us stop at the Co-op, and then we would go to T&C for his stuff.

Jake: [00:35:10] That is true, and I think that is still a relevant issue. I’m down to go to the Co-op, but not for everything.

Ramit Sethi: [00:35:18] Do you guys ever conclude your discussions about money with a final decision?

Hannah: [00:35:27] I really don’t think so.

Ramit Sethi: [00:35:30] Jake?

Jake: [00:35:33] Yeah, I think maybe sometimes I give in to Hannah’s argument.

Ramit Sethi: [00:35:38] Even in my question to you, I didn’t even get a yes or no answer. Let me ask it again, Jake. Do you ever end your money conversations with a final decision?

Jake: [00:35:55] Yeah, I think so.

Hannah: [00:35:56] I don’t want to push too much. I would just rather not have the argument.

Ramit Sethi: [00:36:01] I have so many questions about this grocery store example. First of all, why are you even asking? Don’t you make a lot more money, Hannah?

Hannah: [00:36:08] We’re talking about dinner, which is always a, I don’t know. It just takes so long for us to decide on what we’re going to have for dinner. Then we’re going to go to the grocery store. Eventually, I find myself just going to T&C more, even though I don’t like to go there.

Ramit Sethi: [00:36:25] Hmm. See any patterns here?

Hannah: [00:36:31] I don’t know if I’m doing the right thing or not, giving in.

Ramit Sethi: [00:36:35] I don’t know either, but I’ll tell you that you are asking for permission, when, by the way, it’s your money. You are having repeated conversations with repeated patterns over and over again, even though you already know exactly what’s going to happen. And then you’re shrinking yourself. You’re minimizing, going to a place you don’t even want to go, or even having the conversation, even accepting the premise of arguing over groceries. Don’t you guys make a little too much money to be arguing over the price of pears?

Hannah: [00:37:07] It’s either that, or I eat alone, or I eat my own dinner.

Ramit Sethi: [00:37:12] You’ve taken a wrong turn somewhere. If you two can’t make a decision about grocery shopping, then it’s no surprise that you can’t make a decision about careers, and living together, and money, and joint accounts.

Jake: [00:37:28] I think we want the same thing. I just don’t know how to get there. It sucks.

Ramit Sethi: [00:37:35] Okay. Does it suck enough to change anything for you, Jake?

Jake: [00:37:40] Yeah, I definitely want that to change. I’d want to be with Hannah year round. Absolutely. I just wish I’d had a more concrete answer in timeframe.

Ramit Sethi: [00:37:51] It’s very difficult to live a rich life if you’re Venmo-ing receipts. It’s just too small. It is. It’s too small. To be able to think big– I mean, you guys want to go travel to the mountains in different countries, in different states. It’s very difficult to do that if you’re sitting there Venmo-ing $5 back and forth. It’s keeping you small.  

And in order to get to think at a bigger level, what is our savings rate? How much money are we investing together? How can one of us get a raise or whatever? I guess it would be like climbing. If you want to get up to the top, you got to start one steady step at a time. And when you get higher, you’re not going back down. You don’t want to look back down. You just keep going up. Same thing here. All right. Now, this is the first time I’ve ever used that metaphor with someone who actually knows how to climb. How did I do?

Jake: [00:38:41] You nailed it. That’s good.

Ramit Sethi: [00:38:43] Oh, my God. I’m turning into an outdoorsman today. All right. Forget all this business shit. I’m coming to the mountains. All right. Have you two talked about your rich life together?

Jake: [00:38:55] We have. We both want to go to Europe. We’d like to go to France. I would like to do stuff in the mountains. And we’ve talked about how we can both do a trip together. And I think it’s possible. I really think we could do that, and honestly, soon.

Ramit Sethi: [00:39:11] When?

Jake: [00:39:15] Three years, maybe less.

Hannah: [00:39:19] I would love to do that. It sounds really exciting. I think we’ve talked about that. We stop in talking about, I would want to go there. Talking about the details I think is difficult for us. To go into the details, it feels like I have to motivate myself to just continue with the conversation because it just dead ends.

Ramit Sethi: [00:39:42] Well, you’re afraid to ask for specifics, Hannah, because you know that if you ask for specifics, you’re going to get turned down, dissuaded, minimized. It’s just a lot of– imagine you two are driving, you’re going back and forth, and you’re not actually going in a straight line to anywhere. It’s almost a circle. It’s got to be frustrating.

Hannah: [00:40:03] I’m frustrated. I feel like we’re going in circles.

Jake: [00:40:09] I agree. I think you’re on it, dude. I think we are going in circles. But at the same time, I know this is a classic answer, we do need time.

Ramit Sethi: [00:40:20] Not that much time.

Jake: [00:40:20] Does need to happen–

Ramit Sethi: [00:40:21] You’re 26. She’s 31. Not that much time.

Jake: [00:40:26] We just started new careers in the last two years.

Ramit Sethi: [00:40:30] Here’s how I look at it. I’m in a big hurry. Now, it doesn’t mean that I’m going to make rash decisions. No. It doesn’t mean that I’m going to wake up stressed every day. Not at all. I love chilling on the couch. I love having slow mornings. I’m down. And like you, clearly, Jake, love to be outside. Love it. But with my life, I’m in a hurry. Meaning there are things I want to do, and I know that– the things I want to do are big. I don’t even know how to do some of that stuff today. I don’t even know how to get there.  

But I know that in order to get there, I got to take a couple steps today. I got to take a couple steps tomorrow. Now, here’s the key. That’s me. If I were with somebody who was not into that, they would find that really annoying. They would be like, dude, chill. Things are good. Why are you always stressing? And in my head, I’m like, I’m not stressed. I love the game. I love it. So it’s just a different way to look at the world. Jake, I see a big smile on your face. What is occurring to you as I say this?

Jake: [00:41:38] That’s how I feel. You’re speaking my language.

Ramit Sethi: [00:41:42] You’re like, I am making moves. I started my career. It’s been a couple of years. I’m getting this training. And what are you hearing from your partner? What are you hearing from Hannah?

Jake: [00:41:55] Faster.

Ramit Sethi: [00:41:57] Every day, faster. Yeah. And Hannah, what are you saying to yourself? I’ve been working hard since I was eight years old. I worried because we had to. We didn’t know if our dad, grandpa was going to provide money. I had to do that stuff. And so I’ve been taking on responsibility forever. Even now, I’m about to get paid double, triple whatever you’re going to get paid, and I want to have a partner in this. I want someone who knows what that’s like and is willing to put in work and make big moves. Am I getting that right, Hannah?

Hannah: [00:42:32] Exactly right. Yeah, that’s exactly it.

Ramit Sethi: [00:42:35] Okay. And what do you hear from Jake?

Hannah: [00:42:41] I hear I’m not ready to be a partner yet, but maybe someday. And just give me some time, and I will want to be that at some point.

Ramit Sethi: [00:42:51] Do you think that the two of you want the same thing or different things?

Hannah: [00:43:02] I cannot figure it out.

Jake: [00:43:04] I think we want the same things in the long term. We want to live together. We want to be able to travel freely. We want to not worry about money. I think those are concrete things we both want.

Ramit Sethi: [00:43:15] It doesn’t sound that specific to me, Jake. You want to live together? Okay, fine. You want to travel together? Where? When? How much money do you want to spend? So have you talked about the specifics of what you want?

Jake: [00:43:28] I guess not.

Ramit Sethi: [00:43:30] You guys have been together three years. Maybe you’ve been busy. We’re here now. Should we do it now?

Hannah: [00:43:39] Yeah.

Ramit Sethi: [00:43:41] Can we start with the groceries?

Jake: [00:43:45] I’m down to buy all organic food at the Co-op, I just can’t afford it right now.

Hannah: [00:43:52] That makes sense. I am okay paying more for groceries. I would rather it be a conversation that we had each month as opposed to every time we went to the store having to pick out how much I spend, how much you spend. I would like it to be something that we agree on before.

Ramit Sethi: [00:44:15] How about never? How about never having a conversation about pickles? What a waste of time.

Hannah: [00:44:21] Yes.

Ramit Sethi: [00:44:22] Why are you doing this? I know your numbers. I looked at your CSP. You guys make too much money to be doing it.

Hannah: [00:44:28] He wants to do it, and I am trying to compromise. I don’t want to be the one that makes the new system on my own. I feel like I’m constantly talking about it. I don’t know how to motivate the conversation, I guess.

Ramit Sethi: [00:44:43] Ah, motivate. Motivate the conversation, or motivate him?

Hannah: [00:44:52] Motivate him.

Ramit Sethi: [00:44:54] Mm-hmm. You can’t motivate somebody. They have it or they don’t. Now, you can shape it. You can support it, but the simplest way to get a great partner is to find the person who’s already mostly what you’re looking for. So what I’m looking for from the two of you is for you to be more honest than you’ve ever been about what you want. If you see it differently, one of you is like, I want to plan ten years ahead. And the other is like, I don’t. I’m doing what I’m doing. I’m on my path. Then you’re going to have conversations that don’t feel like a puzzle piece fitting together.  

That’s up to you two to decide if you see your lives the same way. I can’t tell you that. What I’m hopefully doing here is giving you a little structure around money so that you can at least take that off the table as a reason not to connect. And then for the two of you to really have some honest conversations. What do we want? You look nervous.

Hannah: [00:46:02] It’s so new to me. And I feel like I’m doing it mostly on my own. I’m excited that Jake and I can look at the finances together, and maybe I can talk to him more about what I’m experiencing, or I would like to be able to talk to him more and him get involved, but I think that that’s too big of an ask with where we’re at in our relationship, where we are in a committed relationship. And I think we do want the same things in the future. It’s very much I have a lot to think about on my own. 

[Narration]

Ramit Sethi: [00:46:37] Here’s an overview of their finances. Their assets, 17,500, which includes a truck and two snowmobiles. This may be the only couple I’ve ever spoken to on this podcast who actually needs a truck. Their investments, $34,341. Their savings, $23,907. Their debt $82,208. No credit card debt included there. Therefore, their net worth is -$6,460. Hannah’s gross monthly income is 5,300. Jake’s gross monthly income is 3,100, and therefore their combined annual gross income is $101,000. Now, keep in mind that Hannah’s income will more than double very soon. 

[Interview]

Ramit Sethi: [00:47:26] So there’s a problem. I mean, there’s a number of problems here, but one of the problems is what’s that fixed cost number?

Jake: [00:47:35] 83%.

Ramit Sethi: [00:47:36] What’s it supposed to be?

Hannah: [00:47:39] 60. 50 to 60.

Ramit Sethi: [00:47:42] Max. 50 to 60%. So at 83%, because you’re spending so much in your fixed costs, you essentially have no money for some of the other stuff here.

Jake: [00:47:51] Hannah, can you match the 350 I spend in groceries a month?

Hannah: [00:47:55] No, but I have got it down to 550, I think is what it’ll be at. But I’m okay paying more for groceries.

Ramit Sethi: [00:48:08] Great. 550 and 350 equals $900 a month. Cool. You lowered it by 250 bucks or so. Great. We’re down to 79%. Oh, Hannah’s eyes just went, oh shit. That’s right, Hannah. 200 bucks ain’t going to get you there. With the lifestyle you’ve created, if you want to live in the place you live in, have insurance, have a car, pay off the debt that you’ve incurred, then we got to do something else. So what are your options?

Hannah: [00:48:50] Make more money.

Ramit Sethi: [00:48:51] Yeah. And you are going to make more money. By the way, most couples say that, and I immediately shut that down because it’s totally delusional. But you actually are going to make more money, right?

Hannah: [00:49:01] Yeah. I make 40% of what I’ll be making in 4 or 5 months.

Ramit Sethi: [00:49:07] What’s the amount you’re going to make in 4 or 5 months? She’s pulling out a piece of paper. She’s been waiting.

Hannah: [00:49:16] I’m pulling out my conscious spending plan. I think it’s 10,500. It’s on the other tab.

Ramit Sethi: [00:49:22] Oh, hold on. 10,551. Whoa. I think we may have just solved a number of problems. Hold on. Watch this. Jake, you better watch this closely. Remember when you said you don’t care about numbers in a spreadsheet? You’re about to care. Watch this. Whoa. Wow. So cool. What’s the net amount, Hannah?

Hannah: [00:49:44] It’s 11,106.

Jake: [00:49:47] That really changed things a lot. Jake, what do you notice?

Jake: [00:49:53] Our fixed costs have gone down to 44%.

Ramit Sethi: [00:49:57] All right. Round of applause on that. That’s magic. Suddenly, everything has changed. 

[Narration] 

Let me cut in here to show you what actually happens when you do increase your income. This is one of the most common questions I get. How do I increase my income? And I teach this in our Earnable program, which shows you how to find a profitable idea and start a business on the side. I’m going to throw that link in the show notes for those of you who are interested in increasing your income. 

[Interview] 

So your number went from roughly 83% fixed costs to now 44%. What does this mean for your life? Can you tell me?

Hannah: [00:50:36] I have no idea. I’m still just shocked by that.

Ramit Sethi: [00:50:42] Yeah. Jake, does it mean anything different to you?

Jake: [00:50:47] I mean, it’s hard for me to wrap my head around change because it’s not my money.

Ramit Sethi: [00:50:52] Well, let me tell you what I see. I get really excited by this because the change I just saw in your conscious spending plan, to you, is just a number. To me, it represents a complete change in your socioeconomic status. Complete. It’s amazing. The fact that you are even below the 50 to 60% recommendation means you have tons of money to save, tons of money to invest. You can go on your trip to the hot springs and go ahead, get the breakfast, get the extra thing. It’s great. You can do that. You can pay off your debt faster if you choose to, but because you both are actually savvy with the interest rate understanding, you don’t have to. This is absolutely amazing.

Hannah: [00:51:46] I didn’t set in until you said that and I’m so proud of myself.

Ramit Sethi: [00:51:54] Yeah. That’s cool. What does it mean to you?

Jake: [00:51:56] I’m proud of you too.

Hannah: [00:51:58] It means that I have more control over my life. If I put my mind to something, I can make it happen, and I can trust myself to make it happen.

Ramit Sethi: [00:52:08] I believe that. And Jake, I heard you say something just a second ago. What’d you say?

Jake: [00:52:13] I was saying I’m really proud of you too, Hannah.

Hannah: [00:52:17] Thank you.

Ramit Sethi: [00:52:20] I love this. What do you think that this means for the two of you?

Hannah: [00:52:29] I think that it means I can be with him in the mountains and still have my own level of comfort. I can be with him but not worry if I’m putting my future at risk. I think I will feel more comfortable being concise about the things that I want.

Ramit Sethi: [00:52:54] Because?

Hannah: [00:52:57] Because I have the money to do it. And if I want to go to the hot springs, I can say I want to go to the hot springs with you. And we work out a time, and I can pay for it, and I don’t have to worry. Can I pay for it? Can I not? Should he pay for some? Would that make it easier? It would just be more concise in the numbers, or more apparent in the numbers that I could.

Jake: [00:53:22] I’m glad that she is able to– that gives her a sense of freedom, which will probably give both of us more freedom. And that’s great.

Ramit Sethi: [00:53:29] Okay. Nice. And while you may not be spending more of Hannah’s money, you probably will be enjoying more of it. Would that be fair to say?

Jake: [00:53:39] Yeah.

Ramit Sethi: [00:53:40] Are you okay with that?

Jake: [00:53:42] I’m cool with that.

Ramit Sethi: [00:53:43] Okay. Hannah, are you okay with that?

Hannah: [00:53:46] I’m okay with it. Yes.

Ramit Sethi: [00:53:48] So let’s just take a look at the rest of the conscious spending plan. Your investments are 8% of take home. That’s actually higher than I thought. Who’s putting the money here? Both of you are doing it. Wow. I’m impressed. Is this true? Jake, you’re putting 150 bucks a month away for investments?

Jake: [00:54:09] Yeah, I read your book, dude. I mean, you got me on the automatic investments.

Ramit Sethi: [00:54:13] That’s quite sophisticated to understand the relationship. This fucking guy, he really read this book. Okay, well done. And you’re putting away 150 bucks a month. That’s awesome. Hannah, you’re putting away 400 bucks a month. Is that true?

Hannah: [00:54:28] Yes.

Ramit Sethi: [00:54:29] All right. 550 at 8%. I mean, honestly, that’s better than a lot of people. I’m impressed. All right. I got no feedback. Savings, 12%. So you have $158 a month for vacations. That’s very specific.

Hannah: [00:54:48] It would be nice to be able to take a trip together, like celebrating the end of the winter.

Ramit Sethi: [00:54:53] Well, would you like to plan it right now? Go ahead. You have 60s to plan it. Go ahead.

Hannah: [00:54:59] I think it’s too soon to go camping, but I would like to maybe go to a hot springs and just spend the night in a hotel at a hot springs.

Jake: [00:55:09] Do you want to go to Chico?

Hannah: [00:55:11] I would like to go a little bit further than Chico, maybe.

Jake: [00:55:15] Okay. Well, we could look. I don’t know where other hot springs are, but we can do that.

Hannah: [00:55:19] Okay. So that’s something that I can start to plan in a couple of weeks. Us doing.

Jake: [00:55:27] Yeah. I’ll text you the date, and then let’s find a hot spring we want to go to.

Hannah: [00:55:33] Okay.

Ramit Sethi: [00:55:33] This is taking longer than 60s. Can we confirm this?

Jake: [00:55:37] The weekend of May 6th and 7th is good.

Hannah: [00:55:45] Okay.

Ramit Sethi: [00:55:47] I love seeing it. We got the groceries. You two were about to take another two weeks to find a date. I’m like, no fucking way. We’re doing this right now. All right, so you have a date. What about the money? How are you going to decide how much to spend?

Hannah: [00:55:59] I imagine I would pay for it.

Ramit Sethi: [00:56:01] Okay. Is that a question or a statement?

Hannah: [00:56:06] I’m okay paying for it. Are you okay with me paying for it?

Jake: [00:56:12] I’d like to contribute, and feel comfortable contributing.

Hannah: [00:56:16] Okay. I feel guilty asking you to go on a trip because you’re not working right now.

Jake: [00:56:23] I hear you. I will be working, but yes.

Hannah: [00:56:26] Okay. Well, that’s good to know.

Ramit Sethi: [00:56:31] How much? This has always been my dream, watching two people have this very intimate conversation and I’m just sitting in the background on the mic. How much?

Jake: [00:56:44] I can put in $150.

Hannah: [00:56:47] Okay. I don’t know how much it costs to go spend the night at a hot springs.

Jake: [00:56:54] Probably another 150 is all we would need, I think, with transportation and eating out for a meal.

Hannah: [00:57:00] We go out to dinner.

Jake: [00:57:02] Yeah.

Hannah: [00:57:03] We go out for all the meals or just one meal?

Jake: [00:57:06] Maybe a dinner and a breakfast.

Hannah: [00:57:08] Okay. I don’t know what the finances would look like other than I know you can contribute $150 and I can contribute the rest.

Ramit Sethi: [00:57:21] How’s that sound?

Hannah: [00:57:22] It sounds good.

Ramit Sethi: [00:57:23] Okay, great. High five each other. Great job. You made a decision. Miraculous. I like when you two are decisive. No more dangling things. No more sending text messages. Just like, yeah, we’re done. It’s done. And now you’re each off to the races. Jake’s going to show up on this date. Hannah’s going to book the thing. You both know how much money. There’s no more questions. What does that feel like?

Jake: [00:57:52] Feels good.

Hannah: [00:57:53] It feels really good.

Ramit Sethi: [00:57:54] Yeah. I love seeing the two of you in this situation. When you compare what you just did to some of the other conversations you’ve had which seem to go in a circle, what’s the difference?

Jake: [00:58:10] The conclusion, I guess.

Hannah: [00:58:13] I know where I’m coming from, and he knows where he’s coming from in terms of what he can spend and what I can spend.

Ramit Sethi: [00:58:19] Yeah. You’re being honest with yourselves and honest with the people around you. This, I’m gesturing with just talking, talking, talking, talking, is not honest, because when you just talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, you’re not even honest with yourself. You haven’t taken the time to introspect and say, what do I really want? Or what is my boundary? What do I not want? 

Remember this moment because this is where I want you to be working towards, especially with easy decisions like groceries and hot springs. These are easy. Life will present you with much harder decisions, much bigger decisions. And what you’re doing with something like this is building the skills of being able to talk about those complex things. 

[Narration] 

Let me share the follow ups from Hannah and Jake. Hannah wrote, “I was surprised by the fight or flight response I had for the remainder of the interview. I did not predict that I would be in the hot seat when I signed up to do the podcast because my partner is stressed about money on a regular basis and I am not. I personally do not question if I want to be in a relationship with Jake. On the contrary, I enjoy living long distance part of the year because it has allowed both of us to work longer hours and delve deeper into our careers while also maintaining the excitement and passion in our relationship. 

“One of my takeaways was that my partner wants to stay where he is financially, regardless of the panic and meltdowns I witness before most purchases he makes. When he reaches out to me for assurance, I still don’t know if I should pay for anything like his classes if he is stressing out or put my therapist hat on and help him work through his own feelings. If and when I approach money conversations, I will make sure to have the what, when and how written down beforehand.” 

Jake wrote and said, “I was surprised by how unspecific our rich life vision was. I look forward to refining and dreaming about our rich lives. A major takeaway of mine was the importance of conclusions and concrete decision-making. I need to stop putting off decisions.” 

If you and your partner are interested in having healthier conversations about money, I’m going to be talking about that this Saturday on my free newsletter, iwt.com/podcastnewsletter. I’m going to show you how to start having those conversations and what to do if something potentially goes wrong in those conversations. Get on the newsletter at iwt.com/podcastnewsletter. Thanks for listening. Thanks for watching, and I’ll see you next time.