17-minute interview about credit unions, money, and the economic crisis

Ramit Sethi

Last week, I recorded an interview about credit unions, money, and the economic crisis with George Hofheimer at the Filene Research Institute, which studies consumer finance and credit unions. George and I met when I spoke to credit union executives a couple of years ago.

Here’s the interview in streaming MP3 form, plus a transcript below.

RSS readers: Can’t see the MP3? Click here to listen to the interview.

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George Hofheimer: Hello, this is George Hofheimer, Chief Research Officer at the Filene Research Institute and welcome to our podcast series entitled ‘Ideas Grow Here’. Today, we will be having a conversation with Ramit Sethi, Founder of the Personal advice site, He is also the author of an upcoming book by the same name. Ramit, a 26-year-old Stanford graduate will furnish a young adult’s perspective on what role credit unions can play for today’s stressed out consumers. We hope you enjoy today’s show.

Today, I want to welcome our guest. His name is Ramit Sethi and he is the founder of the website, and Ramit, I was wondering if you could tell our audience, today, a little bit about yourself, your background, and a little bit about your business. It’s kind of unique.

Ramit Sethi: Sure, I am 26-years-old. I started, ‘I Will Teach You to Be Rich’ when I was a student at Stanford and I actually started it for reasons before that because when I was applying to colleges, I had to get a bunch of scholarships to be able to afford it. The first scholarship I got was $2,000. I turned around and invested that in the stock market and I lost half my money. So when I got to Stanford I decided that I probably should learn about money. I then started teaching it to my friends and, of course, they never attended my classes, they said it sounded great, but they never came.

So finally I started a blog and that blog really took off; the blog posts about 180,000 readers per month and it’s been featured in the New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, on TV, etcetera. What I try to do with this site is talk about personal finance and personal entrepreneurship as if you and I are sitting around the table just chatting about money. So it’s not the same old browbeating about stopping your spending on lattes because frankly, that hasn’t worked. It’s more punchy points about things that we care about and how to try and achieve those goals, whether it’s negotiating with your bank, negotiating with your credit union, saving up for a vacation, or even getting a second job or doing some kind of entrepreneurial thing on the site.

George Hofheimer: So how can you teach me to be rich?

Ramit Sethi: Well I think the first thing is that rich is not just about money. A lot of people say, “Well, do you have a million dollars?” and the question is, “Well doesn’t it depend, if you have a million dollars, is that rich? What about if you live in Manhattan, or what about if you are 26 versus 65?” Rich is not just about money, so it’s really important to understand what rich means to you. And for many people it means being able to take an international trip once-a-year or being able to help your parents out with their retirement. The first thing you do is understand what it means to you.

The second thing to set some modest goals. And I think most people have pretty modest dreams that are actually very achievable. If you do want to go to China next June, no problem. I can help you plan for that and help you save up the money to do that. If you want to invest your money so that at a certain point in the future you are earning more from your investments than from your savings I can help you do that. The key is, it’s not about being the fanciest, smartest person in the room and knowing P/E Ratios. The hardest part is really just getting started.

George Hofheimer: Well that’s good news for me, because I am never the smartest person in the room, but, kind of, considering the advice that you are giving consumers and some of the ideas that you are throwing out there what could credit unions be doing more effectively?

Ramit Sethi: Well, I think it’s a great time to reach out to consumers. I read a report yesterday that said 8 out of 10 Americans are stressed out about their personal financing. I found that astonishing and I think there are a couple things that credit unions can be doing and I know this has been well debated among your organization. I have read your blog and some of your reports CUNA, CUES, etcetera; but I think first is reassurance.

Right now, as a typical consumer, I hear nothing but bad news and I think the financial companies like banks have really fallen short in reassuring customers. The second thing is guidance. How to save, how do you preserve your money. What should you be doing? They should be saying “Hey! Here’s what’s going on. Here’s why we’re going to be around.” Instead, they are just leaving a vacuum of information.

I think credit unions really do well at this on the community level because they have got such great and deep roots with the communities. They’re going out there and helping to not only educate their own base but also giving their base the tools to spread the word and I can talk about that a little bit later too.


George Hofheimer: So delving into that a little bit further, and I am a reader of your blog. A lot of the advice that you do give to consumers is really common sensical stuff. So why do you think people, number one, are so stressed out about it. Number two, why do they have such a hard time dealing with their finances?

Ramit Sethi: Well, why do you think people can’t lose weight? There are no secrets to losing weight just as there are no secrets to getting rich. If you want to lose weight, you eat less and exercise more. It’s very simple, but instead we get caught up in these ideas of, “Well I better eat carbs before I go to sleep, and then I should eat fiber right after I go running, and I should buy this pedometer.” You know what, if you do those two big things, exercise more and eat less, chances are you are going to lose weight, and the same is true with personal finance.

I think it’s very sensible, but there’s a lot of blame. We love to assign blame to everybody. There’s a lot of blame to go around as to why we are not succeeding as consumers at managing our money.

First of all, we are not trained. We didn’t learn this stuff in school. Most of my friends, even those who graduated and made great amounts of money, still don’t know how to manage their money.

We have bad examples. Our parents taught us about money. Chances are they didn’t know what they were doing. We see what’s on TV; you see these shows where people are changing their stock picks everyday, that’s crazy. Wall Street, they have a profit motive and our friends, they are not actually encouraging us to have a life of frugality; instead we try to see who can one up each other. Finally though, I think most importantly it comes back to us.

Personal finance is shrouded in a sense of mystery and I mentioned that 8 out of 10 people are stressed about their personal financing. How many of those people do you think have ever read one book on personal finance? There can be all the tools in the world, but if we are stepping up to learn them and the rest of it is disappointment.

George Hofheimer: So it’s kind of getting to the old-fashioned notion of thrift. Is that going to be hip again? Do you truly think we are entering a new era of how people consider their finances and know that the era we are leaving is one where asset prices go up? You can trade stocks on a daily basis and you will become rich easily. Is thrift an old-fashioned term that is going to be hip again?

Ramit Sethi: I think in some ways, yes. When I add things on my blog I write things like how to negotiate like an Indian. I have taught people how to call up their banks, their credit card companies, or any financial institution or and negotiate fees. I literally write the script of words they can use to negotiate specifically and people love that. So that is something that is really, really effective. I don’t think savings are sexy yet. It’s not quite so attractive to say, “How do you get that amazing quote.”

“I calmly put aside $25-a-week in an automatic withdrawal and after six months, I was able to afford it.” That doesn’t sound great, but when people asked, “How did you buy that new car?” I said, “I used the service called Fighting Chance and I was able to get about $5,000 off the asking price of the car, $2,000 under invoice because I had some information that other people didn’t, people’s ears will perk up.

So I think the take-away there is that thrift can be hip, it can be cool, if the vision is big enough. Saving $5 here and there is not a big vision, but being able to say, “Hey, I saved $50,000 on my mortgage because I knew something that you didn’t,” that is really, really alluring.

George Hofheimer: Yes, absolutely. Now, we operate in the credit union space and anytime people from the same industry get together, there is a lot of navel-gazing and conventional wisdom. And the conventional wisdom in credit unions, one of them is that we offer a better deal for the consumer and we are the best-kept secret. As I have become accustomed to your website, I notice that you talk about the types of accounts that you have and I notice that you don’t have a credit union account, I’m curious as to why?

Ramit Sethi: Yes. George, I am on thin ice because I spoke at CUES, the Credit Union Executive Society last year in Hawaii and I got in big trouble because I didn’t have a Credit Union Account. So, I am going to go into this knowing full well that I am treading water here. This is what I would say. You are right, I don’t have a Credit Union Account. I think credit unions are fundamentally about change and I think it’s very similar to a political issue we have got going on right now.

Because most Americans have bank accounts, not credit union accounts, credit unions require consumers to make a change. And to be frank, I am lazy and so are most people. We are cognitive misers; we have enough going on in our life and we don’t want to worry or even pay attention to our financing. Even me, and I have read about personal finances every day.


To be a little less glib, I have evaluated a lot of credit union accounts and bank accounts and I guess the question is, is there enough activation energy for me to change to a credit union or even for me to go to a website and open up an account. I think, “Why would I?” And, I think, fundamentally, it’s certainly not because credit unions are member-owned. To be completely honest, none of my friends care about that or even know about that. “Do I get extra services?” I paid, I think, $50 for a Costco account because I could clearly measure my ROI. I am not so sure that it’s easy to do that with a credit union. Even though I love the services and when I go to buy a house, I will absolutely go and see if there are competitive rates there. I have heard about credit unions from a trusted source.

I want to give you an example. You read my blog and know that I talk about my ING Savings Account a great deal. I love it and the reason is two-part. One is that they have a really beautiful simple service that pays me a decent rate and they do not send me a bunch of stuff in the mail. They just leave me alone and I can do what I need to do. The second thing and this is the key, they have given me the tools to spread the word to other people and I have referred thousands of customers to ING.

I think that goes back to a huge part of the community outreach that credit unions do but can do better. It is like you have members that are passionate about credit unions. In fact, I would take a guess that the average credit union member is much more of an evangelist than say a Wells Fargo Bank Account holder. But, as a credit union member, are you giving your members the tools to spread the word?

I would argue, George, that referral should be a strategic metric that’s held up at the executive level every month. How many referrals did we get and programs should be put into place to help members refer other people. I think that is the way that young people hear about financial services. And when I am having conversations with friends about different tools, credit unions just aren’t in those conversations.

George Hofheimer: Interesting. And actually those thoughts that you just had were confirmed by a study that we did. We went into credit union member’s homes several years ago and asked them why they chose the credit union. One of the questions we asked them is “what are you a member of?”, and remember that they knew that they were part of a study examining why they joined a credit union, and the majority of folks did not mention that they were members of credit unions. So it’s the whole notion of having a tangible benefit and something to talk about, I think is a pretty compelling argument as well?

Ramit Sethi: That’s very interesting.

George Hofheimer: And so not to be tone-deaf to what’s going on outside the four walls of everyone’s lives and that’s the economy. The general consensus is that we are entering a pretty deep recession and it’s going to impact consumers tremendously. What can credit unions do, in your opinion, to help consumers through this recessionary time?

Ramit Sethi: That’s a good question. That’s a tough one. I am sure there are much smarter people in the credit union field that are thinking about this, but I will give it a shot as a consumer. I think the first thing is reach out to consumers. We are looking for leaders and we are looking for leadership to be honest with us. Just last night, after watching a presidential debate, I was furious and I wrote up a post on my blog saying, “Here is what Obama and McCain didn’t tell you about your money. They didn’t tell you x, y, z because it’s political suicide to do so.”

We are looking for leadership and it’s not coming from Washington as to what’s going on with the economy. Are we really expecting things to get better by the end of the year? I don’t think so, but nobody is going to tell you that. You can take a top-down and bottom-up approach. Top-down, you have got CUNA, you have got CUES, you have got other national organizations evangelizing credit union as a whole. Then from the bottom-up, at the community level you reach out to the local community and evangelize credit union, again, as change. It’s different than the same old banks you have had.

Locally, credit unions have resources that banks can’t beat. I have seen credit unions come and speak at high schools and universities that banks are too busy minting money to go to. This is a tactical piece of advice. When you go out to the community I would strongly recommend you attend events where people are forced to attend. That sounds somewhat counterintuitive. We always like to think if people care they will come. But I bet anybody listening to this knows that if you are hosting an event where you talk about credit unions or financial planning, your attendance rate is going to dismal.


So I prefer to go to places where people are forced to attend. If you are going to go speak at a classroom, make sure the professor require students to attend. If you are going to speak at a company, make sure the manager forces his or her direct reports to attend. And when you are there speaking to people, give them tools right there on the spot to sign up. Coming back to what credit unions can do in this economy, I think it’s time to think of revolution, and not evolution.

I have spoken to a lot of credit unions over the last couple of years and I still hear conversations about which paperweight should we offer to get people to sign up for our service or should we increase our yield rate 1%. You know that doesn’t fly anymore, increasing it 1% doesn’t make me pay attention to the computer screen and go sign up for an account.

We are talking about huge different ways of getting people to change. Offer us a system that will take us through our 20s and 30s. Don’t just say, “The services are available if you want it;” say, “We are going to make you a deal. We will give you better rates. We are going to work with you in a detailed basis and build a system for finances that will come through in your 20s and 30s.”

And finally, finally, finally and most importantly use your existing base of members to spread the word. If you don’t do that you just can’t compete with the deep pockets of banks but I will tell you this, having 10 people come to me and say, “Ramit, I got this amazing deal at this credit union, you should check it out,” that is more influential than any amount of advertising I could see on TV.

George Hofheimer: Well that’s great, Ramit. I think all of these are great points and coming from a generation where credit unions are struggling to effectively serve in the young adult market. I think the advice is sages and hopefully folks will take action in these tough times to help consumers out.

So once again, Ramit Sethi from If you haven’t checked out that website, I think it’s a great resource and a very keen consumer perspective on financial services and what you can do to help better serve today’s consumers. So Ramit, really, I appreciate your help today and your thoughts. So have a great day.

Ramit Sethi: Thank you.

Total Duration: 17 Minutes.

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  1. Weefz

    Thank you so much for posting a transcript, Ramit! I learn much faster from reading than videos or audio and so many websites don’t bother these days.

  2. HollyS

    “Rich is not just about money, so it’s really important to understand what rich means to you.”
    This is one of those reasons I like your blog so much, Ramit.

    Also, I agree with Weefz – thanks so much for posting a transcript! So many blogs these days will post like ten minute videos or podcasts, but if it’s over 2 minutes, I will never look at it, unless I just really like you. I just learn more from reading.

  3. BarbaraB

    I used to bank at my credit union. But, I fired them a couple of years ago and moved to Bank of America. My credit union charges for online bill pay. I get it free from BOA. I didn’t like the screwy way my car loan was handled by the credit union and had various other annoyances.

    I still have a small account at the credit union in case I need a loan. However, their loan interest rates are no longer lower than commercial rates, they’re higher.

    Their savings acccount interest rate is currently 1%. I get a much higher rate at INGDIRECT. So, I don’t have any incentive to keep my money with the credit union anymore.

  4. 17-minute interview about credit unions, money, and the economic crisis | I Will Teach You To Be Rich « The Indignation

    […] 17-minute interview about credit unions, money, and the economic crisis | I Will Teach You To Be Rich 17-minute interview about credit unions, money, and the economic crisis | I Will Teach You To Be Ric… […]

  5. Right Thought » Hey You,…

    […] I see several things happening if our economy continues the way it does.  First, adults, especially men, will reprioritize to emphasize friends and family over job and money.  Quality time with children will take precedence over quantity time.  Second, spending will be more for function than luxury.  Health (mental and physical) will be at the top of everyone’s list, but what health is will mean something different.  We will move away from six-pack abs, the need to be physically dominant, the feeling of needing to look great.  It, too, will move to function.  Exercise will be for heart and joint health, preventive care and maintenance to allow for a longer quality life.  We will redefine what “rich” means. […]

  6. Mike

    I’ve had a similar experience to BarbaraB. The basic services offered by my credit union are ok, but some banks are much better, if you look. For instance, the online experience is absolutely dismal, and not comparable to any large bank. And while the services are good, I was able to find a bank that provided better. For me, that was Etrade Bank – a great web interface, and free automatic ATM fee refunds. I can go to any ATM, anywhere, for free.

  7. Laura

    I enjoyed my credit union, but I couldn’t take it with me when I moved out of state.

  8. Gregg

    I have heard good hings about credit unions, you can build relationships wiht the people there and they may be more willing to lend based on the relationship (I really dont know if that is true, but maybe they’re saying it is easier to get a loan from a credit union if you had a long standing relationship with them). Either way, its tough for a small credit union to compete with the large banks for interest rates on savings accounts and loans. I could be wrong, but it seems like you might just be selling yourself short if you go with a credit union.

  9. Caleb Nelson

    I think that it is extremely important to understand not only what ‘rich’ means to you, but what it is that you want out of life. I think that we sometimes stop to smell the roses for so long, that we forget that we are going somewhere.


  10. Michael

    Hey, is there a way to just download the audio? I’d love to listen to this in my car.

  11. Ramit Sethi

    Yeah, just click through on the audio link above. You’ll eventually get to a page where you can download the MP3.

  12. S Patel

    Hi Ramit,
    Thanks for posting the transcript.

  13. JP

    Nice interview.

    I too am a fan of IngDirect but not of the cap gains taxes at year end. How do you feel about the cap gains taxes that you will see from using a high yield interest acct – which are at least a % or two less than they have been in recent years – versus money mkt or other vehicles?

  14. A Dawn

    Yes, money is not everything. Your Money or Your Life author Joe Dominguez worked as a Wall Street analyst for ten years before retiring at the age of thirty-one. He gave up his high-paying job to get his life back. Link fore more on Your Money or Your Life –
    Ramit, I learned some more about you after reading this interview. Thanks.
    A Dawn Journal

  15. Patrick Payne

    Great post. Most people know too little about the economic crisis, but I think you summed it up nicely.

  16. Joseph

    Fantastic interview Ramit! I’m going to have to agree with HollyS with the tidbit you said about rich not being “just about money.” You’re absolutely level-headed and full of common sense ideas. That’s why I’ve been following your blog for well over a year now.

    Keep it up! I’m loving your advice as usual!

  17. Mike

    Sorry to be so far behind in my reading, and as above, I prefer the transcript to listening to the audio.

    I have been a member of my work credit union for 2 decades. Why? It predates direct deposit, and i could have the money taken out of my paycheck ahead of my bank. It was a good way to get money saved. I still use it, but I don’t have a lot taken out, I use it as a holding place for my car insurance that I pay quarterly. The interest rate rather sucks.

    But historically, credit unions have not really been about saving. They are member-driven vehicles for LENDING. Just as there used to be a difference between “savings and loan” and a “bank,” there used to be a difference between credit unions (note the words “credit” and “union?”) and a “bank.” I’m not sure that difference is there now, since you apparently don’t have to be a member of anything to get an account at a CU. Maybe that’s a bad thing, because, as the interviewer noted, people who are in a CU don’t think they are members of anything, they just think they are clients like everywhere else.

    CUs can still offer stuff that banks can’t, but that stuff is getting narrower. (we bought a time share years ago with a CU “secured loan” at like 1% interest) Just as you don’t have a CU account because the work of changing doesn’t justify the benefit, I haven’t fired my CU because the benefit doesn’t justify the change. (finding another easy way of saving for that car insurance)

  18. Lara

    Sarah,It’s funny-I am reading all these cotmmnes and wondering why are they talking about food? :-)It is about all invisible systems, some of which make up the cultures in our organizations or our society. So much of what we do as individuals and groups is based on subconscious assumptions and acceptance of invisible systems, some of which are so deep we don’t know why they are there. Try this with a group (works best with a group larger than a dozen).As a group show them 1 2 3 4and have them immediately select a number and write it down. We assume that a random group of people would have their selections randomly distributed across the digits. It isn’t. 99 times out of 100 there is one number selected more than the others (and often more than all the others combined). I won’t tell you what it is, but it rhymes with tree.This is an invisible system and it is why there is wisdom in the advice on college multipel choice tests (because they tend to be written by untrained test-makers): When in doubt choose C.Thanks for a great post!


    Es wird keinen Aufschrei geben, weder von Merkel & Co noch von Obama oder sonstigen EU-Mitgliedstaaten, die allesamt gute Waffengeschäfte mit Israel abwickeln. Der Aufschrei kann nur, und muss aus dem Volk kommen! Wenn ich mir die Lage der Menschen im Gaza-Streifen anschaue, Kinder und Erwachsene eingesperrt, ständig in Angst lebend, keine Aussicht auf ein friedliches Leben, frage ich mich, wie weit Feigheit eigentlich gehen darf?


    Btw, I want to add that even if lower middle children attend the same schools as children from wealthier families, the latter still enjoy far more advantages: more resources and stability, greater intellectual stimulation (esp if parents read and discuss literature/history/reading materials in better magazines/newspapers, less TV, assistance on homework etc. Unfortunately, uppers and upper middles fail to realize this–or perhaps they’re not content with their children having merely better chances: they want them to be absolutely superior.